Competing at a lower level to 'warm up' - rant!

Dumbo

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I took my tb to his first dressage show on sunday. Great day out and home with a third which is a big achievement!

It was a very small class. Only 6 of us in the intro. I was first in then watched a couple after mine and felt very confident that I'd be placed highly! I went away and came back to see the horses warming up for I assumed prelim/novice, in the arena so guessed that intro class was over. Got chatting to a girl who was friends with these competitors for her to say they were using intro as a warm up!
Anyway, they were placed first and second. I can't help but feel annoyed and cheated that they were competing in the lowest level just to 'warm up' when there were 4 of us in the class who had all worked really hard for our first competition and should have been placed higher!!
I know some events have restricted and open classes but I think these people just 'warming up' should state they weren't competing for a place and purely warming up?!
I know of one lady in my RC who is at Novice level but enters intro's so she can win and this infuriates me!!
 

dressagelove

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Yeah this is a fairly common thing, it's known as 'pot hunting' I think.

To be fair, I always do two classes at competitions, and always do one lower and one higher class, so you could construe that as a warm up class. My chap is BD Elementary, but has been off for some time with injury. I\m getting him fit again now and thinking about tootling out to some competitions to get him going again, and thinking about doing a prelim. But because he has had so much success higher up the levels, I wouldn't dream of doing it competitively, I will ride HC.

I think it's okay to use an Intro as a warm up if you are then doing a prelim, but I don't think you should ride several levels above and come down the levels just to win. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

Congrats on your third!
 

Dizzydancer

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I used to enter intro and prelim, now I enter novice and prelim. Originally I was actually competing in intro and pushing for prelim just to see what happened and now it's the same I feel I have a better chance in prelim so am competitive as we are only just stepping into novice and its more practice runs to get judges feedback.
I can see why your annoyed esowcially if they are competing much higher levels but it goes on all the time.
 

Prince33Sp4rkle

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jesus wept just get over it!

if they are eligible, they are not breaking rules, there is no issue.

work harder, get better, win more, simple.

It is absolutely common and correct for a horse to be working several levels above what it competes at so that what it has to do in the ring is easy peasy and not on a wing and a prayer.

if the horse is hot, or stressy, or had a previous bad experience, it may need a dead easy class to settle it, before the harder class and who are you to say they shouldnt? Again, as long as not breaking rules, it is not an issue and not worth getting worked up over.

as for those you feel only do it to win-unless you to wish to remain at lower levels forever in order to win, you are going to fly past them up the levels and it wont be your problem any more :)

chill.
 

TGM

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I don't see any problem in riding an Intro test before doing a Prelim, as it is just one level difference and in fact it is probably the norm for riders to do one higher and one lower level test when they compete. Perhaps you could look out for competitions where there are restrictions on who can enter Intro classes (ie never to have won at Prelim etc), if you feel that is more suitable for you.
 

wench

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I went to a show a couple of weeks ago. There was a horse in the prelim that has had some very good dressage scores at BE90 eventing earlier on this year. Even on an exceptionally good day, there is no way in hell I would ever stand any chance of beating that horse and rider. But it's tough. They are eligible to compete in that class, so they do. It's tough.
 

Matafleur

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But BE90 is the same level as Prelim?! It's easier then the higher prelim tests in fact! I'm afraid I agree with PS on this, I'm constantly being beaten by people that are better than me, the only way to beat them is to stop whinging and start training!
 

Shay

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The only way to avoid this is to affiliate and then remain in the restricted classes for which others might be over qualified. Other than that - I'm afraid its just a fact of life. You think it is bad with adults - you should see what happens with kids!
 

Perfect_Pirouette

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I don’t think there is anything wrong with competing in an Intro and a Prelim on the same day, or a Prelim and a Novice on the same day, or a Novice/Ele on the same day and so on. Most people like to do 2 tests when they go out and not every Centre will run 2 tests of the same level, also, it is often nice to do a test a level or 2 below what it is working at home to get the horse and rider’s confidence up.
I do get what you are saying though, I often compete against someone BD who won’t move up to Elementary because ‘The horse isn’t scoring well enough at Novice yet.’ This horse has done about 9 Novices, won nearly every single one and if you look up its record, its lowest Novice score is 64% and highest is 73% with the average being around 69% To me (and I’m sure the majority of other people) very late 60’s, low 70’s is a GOOD score at BD and if you are consistently getting it every time out (and winning) and you know it’s not just a fluke, why wouldn’t you have a bash at the higher level? Hell, what do they want, 90% before they’ll move up? I guess the points system will soon be moving them up whether they like it or not.
So yes, I can see both sides. It is nice to do two tests and have one (especially if it’s a non-qualifier) as more of a ‘warm up’ where you’re not too fussed about placing’s equally though, constantly competing at a level where the horse could get around with its eyes closed and still win is not something I agree with.
 

wench

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But BE90 is the same level as Prelim?! It's easier then the higher prelim tests in fact! I'm afraid I agree with PS on this, I'm constantly being beaten by people that are better than me, the only way to beat them is to stop whinging and start training!

Point is they are leagues above me... even if competing in the same class as me... but not point in moaning about it, as they are eligible to be in it.
 

rara007

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Let the best person (that's following to rules) win I say! Everyone started somewhere.
I often do two classes at two levels, sometimes the earlier one is a warm-up, sometimes the second is a trial/just to see if we can get round it, sometimes Ill even do the prelim and the harder of the two novices if it suits my non textbook ponies better. Always well within the rules though ;) If I was going to moan I'd moan at people having purpose bred horses totally outclassing my ponies (when the horses get it right) but obviously that's invalid- if they're better than me on the day they're better!
 

crabbymare

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When you do your first prelim you may decide to do an intro first and as you progress you may well decide to do a prelim and a novice. to someone out doing their first test you could be seen to be warming up in the lower class. as long as the rules allow the horse and rider combination to enter that class there is nothing wrong with it so just keep training until you are better than them
 

ester

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BE90 is definitely less than half the prelim tests! If they are still leagues above you then you just need to get better! Nothing wrong with doing prelim and intro for a warm-up/let the horses see the arena etc IMO.
 

meardsall_millie

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I often compete against someone BD who won’t move up to Elementary because ‘The horse isn’t scoring well enough at Novice yet.’ This horse has done about 9 Novices, won nearly every single one and if you look up its record, its lowest Novice score is 64% and highest is 73% with the average being around 69% To me (and I’m sure the majority of other people) very late 60’s, low 70’s is a GOOD score at BD and if you are consistently getting it every time out (and winning) and you know it’s not just a fluke, why wouldn’t you have a bash at the higher level? Hell, what do they want, 90% before they’ll move up? I guess the points system will soon be moving them up whether they like it or not.

Why? Because they are probably, quite legitimately, protecting their rider group.

Doing too much too quickly puts you in the Open sections and can affect what you're able to qualify for. It also means you really are playing with the Big Boys and many people don't want to do that.
 

NooNoo59

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I have come across this in showing in Amateur Showing Society Classes so that is for true amateurs that do not make a living from horses. So the lady that won the class did tempi changes and canter half pass in her individual show, the horse has competed up to advanced level in dressage, she breeds and trains and advertises this on her lorry and website. I mentioned this to the organisers of the show and they said there was nothing they could do as they do not know all the competitors individually, interestingly the judge was the daughter of one of the show organisers and she called this woman forward using her first name so she did know who she was. In a way I felt sorry for her, if I was that good and had a horse that talented I would not compete in classes of that level, what is the point? When I used to jump, once I was regularly getting placed at a height I would then move up to the next level. I do not compete at these shows anymore as I do not agree with paying £15 for a class and then the organisers not sticking to the rules of the society under which they are running the class, and this is now to do with not winning etc, its just being judged against people of the same standing i.e. true amateurs. Its tricky with dressage but I think competing in the class below is not that bad, if they were at novice and still doing Intro I would question that. The trouble is all events are struggling to make a profit so they are not going to turn away entries unless they have very good reason. My instructor always tells me to be content with your own achievement in what ever you do, not too judge yourself against other people. I try to stick to this, having had an horrendous accident years ago in a horsebox on the way to an event, if we arrive and return safely I am happy.
 

Perfect_Pirouette

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Why? Because they are probably, quite legitimately, protecting their rider group.

Doing too much too quickly puts you in the Open sections and can affect what you're able to qualify for. It also means you really are playing with the Big Boys and many people don't want to do that.

No, I don’t think it has anything to do with protecting their rider group.

And as far as ‘playing with the big boys’ is concerned, why not? Surely that’s what everyone wants to do? The horse consistently scores well, I don’t think moving up 1 level would dramatically reduce their scores (though I could be wrong of course) as I have seen it warm up plenty of times and it is working at medium anyway and doing some nice work. The only difference I can see is that they may be up against better quality riders and horses and therefore may not be able to take home a red one all the time like they do now.
 

Prince33Sp4rkle

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if they want to protect rider group they can always go training (as NMT has done with Fig all year at adv med) but of course then they wont *win*.

so i do get that some people play the game,but if playing the game is within the rules, all you can do is try and beat them fair and square.

i wouldnt get too worried really. NMT regularly competes against a horse that has been doing medium for years and years..............sometimes she beats it and sometimes she doesnt...............no reason to stress either way!
 

meardsall_millie

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No, I don’t think it has anything to do with protecting their rider group.

And as far as ‘playing with the big boys’ is concerned, why not? Surely that’s what everyone wants to do? The horse consistently scores well, I don’t think moving up 1 level would dramatically reduce their scores (though I could be wrong of course) as I have seen it warm up plenty of times and it is working at medium anyway and doing some nice work. The only difference I can see is that they may be up against better quality riders and horses and therefore may not be able to take home a red one all the time like they do now.

But why should they have to move up a level if they don't want to?

They have 124 available horse points at Novice. That's a possible 5 or 6 Regional Championships they could contest at Restricted if they so wished. If they move up to Elementary and get 15 points then they're in Open at Novice which is a totally different ball game and extremely difficult to qualify from.

No it's not how I would operate as I'm keen to progress but some people really do like to win or be well placed - and if they are operating within the rules and within their comfort zone, why not? Who the heck are we to pass judgement? !
 
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MileAMinute

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No it's not how I would operate as I'm keen to prgre Some people really do like to win or be well placed - and if they are operating within the rules and within their comfort zone, why not? Who the heck are we to pass judgement? !

This. My 5yo is only now just getting ready to compete prelim properly after a year of intro as we had canter issues, but I would like him to keep progressing.

However, when it comes to jumping, I am a total wuss and so will probably go no higher than a 2ft3 class, well, on him at least as he needs a confident rider as the course gets trickier/higher. But I'm comfortable and not breaking any rules within that so I'm happy to stay in my comfort zone and not progress.
 
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Perfect_Pirouette

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They don't have to move up a level, they may be forced to once they are out of points, but they don’t have to willingly.

Unfortunately, people will pass judgment, that’s life, you can’t please everyone. My only gripe is their reason for not moving up ‘because the horse ‘isn’t scoring well at Novice yet.’ Now I know scoring is subjective and what is ‘good’ for someone may not be good for another, but I would say the majority of amateurs would consider late 60’s/low 70’s very reasonable.

Anyway, can’t say I lose sleep over it and am not overly bothered, but thought I would use it as an example of what I (note, I!) consider pot hunting.
 

Apercrumbie

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I don't have any problems with this tbh - they've paid the entry fee same as me and 'warm up' tests are very useful, particularly for hot horses. But then again, I'm only competitive against myself - I aim to ride as well as I can and get as good a score as possible. If there are better people than me on the day (and normally there are many :p ) then good for them, it's no skin off my nose.
 

cptrayes

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I think it is a completely different issue doing an Intro as a warm up level to using any other level as a warm up class. Intro classes are walk and trot only. They were designed for people and horses who simply aren't ready to do a Prelim, to allow them the experience of competing and possibly getting a frilly, not for people who can't (or even worse, can) win a Prelim and want to win something.

I don't care whether it's within the rules or not (and at the centre I go to it's not) , I think it's pot hunting and bad manners to compete in an Intro if you and your horse have the competence to do a Prelim.
 
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SusieT

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If you want to compete only against lessers or equals competition is not for you - you can go and find restricted classes if you want. I'm afraid just because you worked hard and wanted a rosette doesn't equate to getting one - there is not a big difference between intro and prelim .
 

Prince33Sp4rkle

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i tend to agree with susie (albeit this is a different topic really and a bit of a tangent.....)

i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!
 

ester

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I think susie meant compared to doing an intro and a novice/elem, everything is relative ;)

Re. the not moving up to elementary, surely the reason BD has made the points levels where they are is because they think that level is right/fair. IME rider groups can cause an issue for riding club teams when people have more than one horse too :p.
 

el_Snowflakes

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This is something that annoys me too BUT I can safely say that when I go out to compete I may not always win but I always challenge & push myself which means more to me than a red rosette anyway. Plenty of riders who are more experienced than myself compete at lower levels than I do but where's the fun in that?

Give yourself confidence by remembering they will eventually plateau while you continue to improve ;)
 

Twiglet

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i tend to agree with susie (albeit this is a different topic really and a bit of a tangent.....)

i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!

I disagree here - being able to canter, and wanting to do a test with canter, is a different thing. If you have a big young horse, and it's unbalanced in canter (as many are), then doing an Intro test is a good way to get it used to going out and having a confidence boosting outing, without wobbling round an arena and feeling out of its comfort zone. I didn't do any myself, but whilst my horse was more than capable of cantering happily in our 60x20m at home/out hacking/on a good surface when he started competing - a 20x40m was a different kettle of fish, and wasn't too pretty a sight!

Not all horses are bred for grading or professional careers - some people just want to get their young horses out for experience, which is what these tests are designed for, in my opinion.

I don't see anything wrong with a warm up test - test centres should apply rules on eligibility if it's an issue - plenty do!
 

cptrayes

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i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!
.!

It's what Intro was put into the schedules for Princess.

You left behind being a nervous novice so long ago that you have forgotten, if you ever knew, what a thrill it is to get to your first competition. Not everyone is trying to get to Grand Prix. For some, winning a frilly at Intro will be the highlight of their year.

I don't see any problem with not wanting to canter a circle in a warm up arena. It's easier to avoid someone warming up circles and lines in trot than the person in there an hour early practising their half pass.
 
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twiggy2

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i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!

I don't compete these days but not being able to canter and wanting to introduce horse or rider or a combination to the competing world whilst not blowing anyones brains or scaring anyone seems very sensible to me, cantering is often the straw that broke the camels back for an rider or a horse if they lack confidence, experience or unity.
 
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