Competing at a lower level to 'warm up' - rant!

[Apercrumbie]

i tend to agree with susie (albeit this is a different topic really and a bit of a tangent.....)

i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!

I completely understand this but when I had a very green horse I found the intro test very useful. We definitely could canter, but in a fairly unbalanced fashion so a walk and trot test really took the pressure off for his first couple of tests. I used them as learning experiences to get him out and about and used to show atmospheres more than anything. I also made sure to canter a bit in the warmup. I am no professional, I have had good results at higher levels with another horse but I am most definitely not the world's best rider. However, I am competent and I enjoy it. I do think intro tests have their uses - but the aim should always be to do a few and then move up to prelim as soon as possible.

 

[dianchi]

It's what Intro was put into the schedules for Princess.

You left behind being a nervous novice so long ago that you have forgotten, if you ever knew, what a thrill it is to get to your first competition. Not everyone is trying to get to Grand Prix. For some, winning a frilly at Intro will be the highlight of their year.

Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over!

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!

 

[cptrayes]

Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over!

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!

You may not find them thrilling, I do. I absolutely loved taking my little green cob to an Intro last year. And the OP was the same, obviously.

 

[StoptheCavalry]

I just wish they'd invent a test with no trot in, that's my least favourite, walk and canter however are just fine !

 

[nikkimariet]

I just wish they'd invent a test with no trot in, that's my least favourite, walk and canter however are just fine !

I vote no walk! Trot, canter, sideways and changes = fine. Walk... NOPE.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I think it is a completely different issue doing an Intro as a warm up level to using any other level as a warm up class. Intro classes are walk and trot only. They were designed for people and horses who simply aren't ready to do a Prelim, to allow them the experience of competing and possibly getting a frilly, not for people who can't (or even worse, can) win a Prelim and want to win something.

I don't care whether it's within the rules or not (and at the centre I go to it's not) , I think it's pot hunting and bad manners to compete in an Intro if you and your horse have the competence to do a Prelim.

I worry slightly about this. I took my green cob out this summer for his first taste of dressage. I opted for intro as his canter is still pretty wobbly and I like to set him up for success as much as possible when it comes to new experiences. We've yet to be placed but have scored low 60s on each outing. I am now working on his canter work over winter with an aim to pop him in some prelim classes next spring but will likely still enter him into an intro test too in case he finds cantering in an arena a bit too exciting. Obviously once he's more established or getting placed at intro we'll move on but until then I don't see any issue with me putting him in both intro and prelim classes for experience.

I completely understand this but when I had a very green horse I found the intro test very useful. We definitely could canter, but in a fairly unbalanced fashion so a walk and trot test really took the pressure off for his first couple of tests. I used them as learning experiences to get him out and about and used to show atmospheres more than anything. I also made sure to canter a bit in the warmup. I am no professional, I have had good results at higher levels with another horse but I am most definitely not the world's best rider. However, I am competent and I enjoy it. I do think intro tests have their uses - but the aim should always be to do a few and then move up to prelim as soon as possible.

I completely agree with this. I always canter my boy in the warm up as it helps get him working from behind, but he was still too unbalanced over summer to consider putting him in for anything but the intro tests.

 

[StoptheCavalry]

I vote no walk! Trot, canter, sideways and changes = fine. Walk... NOPE.

I don't always do so well with standing still either so removing halt would be just great too

 

[Apercrumbie]

I vote no walk! Trot, canter, sideways and changes = fine. Walk... NOPE.

Completely agree. Why is something that seems so simple so hard to get right?

 

[Elbie]

My instructor says we should be schooling a level higher than we compete at. Doesn't really work for me as compete at prelim but nowhere near novice level!

It is annoying when sometimes you're up against people who seem way above that level but at the end of the day if they are eligible to compete then you just need to suck it up.

I try not to worry too much about placings. I just focus on my mark and how I felt my performance compared to other times. One time I lost to a BHSI instructor who went on to also win the novice class. I'd much rather lose to someone like that than someone riding backwards on a 3 legged donkey!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

i dont want to de-rail the thread so this will be my final thoughts (and they are only that MY thoughts and you can disagree or agree, but its not going to change my mind one iota..)

its a sliding scale of *why are you doing this*-if it cant canter a 20 x 20 m circle in an arena, in front of 1 judge then to me personally that kind of screams lack of prep..... the first time a horse goes off site should be to hire a diff arena away from home, when presumably you would take advantage of a schooling situation and thus canter? and you should do that until the horse is relaxed..............and if you can do that, then really, going and doing a prelim isnt too different?

as far as the warm up goes, i find intro/prelim/novice far more terrifying (especially given HOW many people seem not to do the above prep and are thus presumably careering round on equally terrified horses!) than warming up with higher levels, who at least can canter/halt or collect and shorten a few steps to manoeuvre out the way.

totally get that every horse is not being produced with GP in mind but to my mind warm up arena control is a safety issue and you cant just take the tack that "oh im not doing it seriously so it doesnt matter" because if your nervous horse, at its very first adventure off the yard, explodes,careers off barely able to stay upright in canter, with its terrified rider screaming and collides with another horse, the rider of that horse will be taking it VERY seriously and might not be too impressed............

preparation is key............ive had some absolute knob-heads in the past, but never caused an accident because the horse was sufficiently prepped as to be manoeuvrable and thus i could stay out the way...........i personally just feel intro tests encourage people out in to public before they are really ready.

also, i can bet you any money that whilst i can brazen it out, i WILL feel that twinge of fear at Goof's first show. But i will have done all the prep and put every building block in place to make it as safe and as easy as possible. If you really are SO nervous of cantering at a show, then perhaps come rider confidence building is needed too.

and before anyone even says it-para riders and small kids are totally diff kettle of fish, kids cant rationalise in the same way adults can and very tiny tots probably lack the upper body strength to canter anyway.

 

[ann-jen]

My plan for next year is to qualify for the summer regionals at prelim and the area festival at novice so as of January will be competing at 2 separate levels.... I don't see any problem with this personally.... and I'm certainly not pot hunting!
Also on Sunday I was competing at prelim and the lady in the arena before me has competed at Badminton! So in a different league to me in terms of riding skill! Did I have a problem with this? Not really.... I assumed it was a young or novicey horse.... plus I was ecstatic when I was placed 2nd and she was placed 3rd!! So there can be some real positives with riding against 'pros' too as I felt a huge sense of achievement there!

 

[Kat_Bath]

I read these kind of threads with interest.

I have no direct comment and there are some points I agree with and others I disagree with. However, I did chuckle because I don't think any of the other 5 people in the 20 x 40 intro warm up on Sunday would have wanted me to canter; I was on a 19.2 shire! Maybe I'm missing the point but thought I'd add that perspective

 

[Twiglet]

Hiring an arena to practice and prepare is vastly different to a horse's first warm up and competition environment. Everyone and every horse has to compete for the first time, and if someone has a hot horse/young horse/new horse they're not sure of in that environment, then personally I'd respect them for sensibly preparing for a new experience by taking it out and keep it as low key and quiet as possible - that might involve not cantering. In my opinion THAT is 'preparation'.

 

[cptrayes]

Nobody knows what their first time horse is going to do in THAT arena at THOSE letters on THAT day. Is it so long since you took out a novice horse that you've forgotten that Princess? I hope for your sake that Goofy doesn't remind you!

Not everyone can ever be as confident a rider as you. Do you want to prevent all those people from having an experience at a show that they feel they can cope with?

I welcome them with open arms, if for no other reason than they bump up the numbers enough to make it worth while for them to open the cafe

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Nobody knows what their first time horse is going to do in THAT arena at THOSE letters on THAT day. Is it so long since you took out a novice horse that you've forgotten that Princess? I hope for your sake that Goofy doesn't remind you!

Not everyone can ever be as confident a rider as you. Do you want to prevent all those people from having an experience at a show that they feel they can cope with?

I welcome them with open arms, if for no other reason than they bump up the numbers enough to make it worth while for them to open the cafe

I think its fair to say, if anyone at all can play the *unreliable horse* card...........it was CS! and he was no different age 4 to age 9 so not being a mind reader has no bearing on anything and neither does the horses age, so i dont really get your point?

Like i already said, i'm sure Goofy will make me wince a few times, but it wont be because he's cantering-if its going to deck you its going to do it regardless( and yes lets hope he doesnt dislodge me because his pea brain wont make a bee line for NMT, or back to HIS lorry...................he'll probably jump every fence between the warm up and home instead of taking the easy option!)

from a training POV, hire arenas with a big bunch of friends, get banners out at home etc, make show *stuff* as boring snoring as you can.

 

[cptrayes]

and are thus presumably careering round on equally terrified horses.....

I've never seen an intro horse and rider do this.

preparation is key............ive had some absolute knob-heads in the past, but never caused an accident because the horse was sufficiently prepped as to be manoeuvrable and thus i could stay out the way...........i personally just feel intro tests encourage people out in to public before they are really ready.

Was CS ready to go to venues that graded their arenas with tractors? He once caused an accident bolting away from one, didn't he? You took him to venues that were bound to have tractors going around in spite of knowing he had a great fear of them. It seems you might have one rule for you and another for others?

 

[MPop]

I don't mind people competing in Intro and Prelim on the same day, but I do mind when riders consistently score 70% in intro tests and keep riding them. It's just glory hunting and wanting to collect red rosettes. I'm no great dressage rider but I like to give it a go and have some fun, and I do find it demoralising when the same riders keep winning the most basic class - which is aimed at novice riders and horses after all. I like it when there are restrictions on the class - i.e. no-one can enter the Intro if they have previously come first or second. After owning my horse for 3 years, I am yet to be in that category!!!

 

[Under-the-radar]

I've never seen an intro horse and rider do this.




Was CS ready to go to venues that graded their arenas with tractors? He once caused an accident bolting away from one, didn't he? You took him to venues that were bound to have tractors going around in spite of knowing he had a great fear of them. It seems you might have one rule for you and another for others?

I have to say cptrayes, that while I can see valid points in both your and PS's points of view, your tone is really not pleasant in your replies. There is more that I want to reply to this particular post, but I think that you are making me want to defend PS's point of view, purely because of your tone in replying to her.

 

[rara007]

I admit I have done an intro and prelim on the same day. Twice actually. Admittedly also both times I won the intro. (Different ponies). I was also last in both prelims. I understand that that is lack of preparation, but for me and I expect many others at that level dressage is just for fun, I only have the time I have to train, hire places and compete and I split that between everything being a 'Jack of all trades'. Its also preparation for their more serious job of driving. Both ponies I took were not really up to canter (Canter only comes in driven tests at advanced single level) and only 4YOs doing their first tests. Doing the prelim gets more 'white board' time so is good training for the future, around home it's difficult to hire an arena away from home with boards on a weekend day, and more expensive! That and I can't persuade my unpaid grooms to watch me school but they'll come to watch a test.

 

[cptrayes]

I have to say cptrayes, that while I can see valid points in both your and PS's points of view, your tone is really not pleasant in your replies. There is more that I want to reply to this particular post, but I think that you are making me want to defend PS's point of view, purely because of your tone in replying to her.

Please tell me how you would have liked me to have worded it while making the same point. I would be happy to be corrected.

 

[cptrayes]

I read these kind of threads with interest.

I have no direct comment and there are some points I agree with and others I disagree with. However, I did chuckle because I don't think any of the other 5 people in the 20 x 40 intro warm up on Sunday would have wanted me to canter; I was on a 19.2 shire! Maybe I'm missing the point but thought I'd add that perspective

I think we need a photo !

 

[Under-the-radar]

Please tell me how you would have liked me to have worded it while making the same point. I would be happy to be corrected.

As I said, I can see valid points in what you are saying. It is not WHAT you are saying, but HOW you are saying it. I think constantly referring to PS as "princess" is maybe a little unnecessary.

I have nothing against you - you are clear and concise in what you are trying to put across, but it just seems to me that your tone is a bit needless. But just my opinion

 

[NooNoo59]

Just another note from me, my pony had a severe injury and was off ridden work for a year, he was then slowly bought back into work and we went out to do a couple of intros to get back in the swing of things. He did win one of them and for me after all the hard work and worry I was delirious!! I was not dangerous or under prepared but the canter was not ready for a test but the walk and trot were, the canter was getting there but now I am lame so to get back into the swing of things when I am riding again I will prob do another walk trot. Our local venue has one for those that have been placed and those that have not, it also does the same with the prelim, i.e. you cannot compete in the easier prelims if you have previously won at that level in a certain time span, very fair and keeps everyone happy.

 

[ester]

TBF I did read that post thinking that CS has likely caused more upset in warm ups than most intro combinations do. So long as you can stop, go, turn and keep out of the way of other people I think you are perfectly entitled to get out and enjoy yourself, baby horse, novice/nervous rider (for whom going out is usually so much more than just what you do in the ring) or any other combination

 

[cptrayes]

As I said, I can see valid points in what you are saying. It is not WHAT you are saying, but HOW you are saying it. I think constantly referring to PS as "princess" is maybe a little unnecessary.

It's her logon! If she wants me to stop using it, I will happily do that.

 

[cptrayes]

I admit I have done an intro and prelim on the same day. Twice actually. Admittedly also both times I won the intro. (Different ponies). I was also last in both prelims. I understand that that is lack of preparation, but for me and I expect many others at that level dressage is just for fun, I only have the time I have to train, hire places and compete and I split that between everything being a 'Jack of all trades'. Its also preparation for their more serious job of driving. Both ponies I took were not really up to canter (Canter only comes in driven tests at advanced single level) and only 4YOs doing their first tests. Doing the prelim gets more 'white board' time so is good training for the future, around home it's difficult to hire an arena away from home with boards on a weekend day, and more expensive! That and I can't persuade my unpaid grooms to watch me school but they'll come to watch a test.

I don't think there's any problem with this. I'm likely to do the same when my baby cob does his first prelim soon, but I'll drop intro as soon as I know that the lovely canter we have at home and in schooling trips is established in a test ring as well.

 

[Kat_Bath]

I think we need a photo !

Will do a report later on

 

[Under-the-radar]

It's her logon! If she wants me to stop using it, I will happily do that.

Hmmmmm - I think there is a difference between referring to someone as their log in, or even the initials of their log in, and what you have done. As I said, its not so much WHAT you have said, but HOW you are saying it.

But I am sure if you can't (or won't) distinguish the difference, you can't (or won't) understand what I am saying

 

[Under-the-radar]

It's her logon! If she wants me to stop using it, I will happily do that.

For what its worth, I think intro tests are valuable to many people. I found them very useful with my mare - she would be absolute saint if we went out and hired an arena, but take her to a show with other horses, and it was a completely different matter!

I also intend to do intro tests with my youngster, once we are ready. I am sure that we will, at some point, do an intro and prelim test too.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

at no point in his 5 year career did CS ever come anywhere close to colliding with another horse?????? I cant think of a single time he's even come close to harming a person or horse EXCEPT the tractor incident which i think we can all agree was not in any way my fault.

(he was once asked to vacate a warm up but afterwards several professionals who were actually present at the time agreed the steward was over zealous as again he never even came close to touching another person or horse)

CPT-i made every effort to avoid tractors as i knew they set him off. I would not knowingly have put him in a situation where i was unable to move him away quickly and safely. For every show bar ONE i managed that, and lets be real, its NOT standard BD practice to have harrowing tractors IN the warm up WITH horses.....in that incident BD have admitted the VENUE were at fault for not warning riders,so if you would like to apologise to me that would be great thanks.

It would agree that CPT and i agree on very little to do with producing horses but at least one of us can debate the topic without making it personal.

oh and i quite like my *pet name* at least it can be written without appearing as a line of stars...........