Considering Dressage, at the highest level.

[Cortez]

and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.

Agree with this^^^

 

[SpringArising]

and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.

Where's the accusation? The words came from his own mouth.

And please read properly next time. No one said anything about a short, sharp shock. I said a hiding, which means a beating. Might be acceptable for you but not for me.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah, but it's some out of context hearsay comment you remember hearing him say somewhere but can't give us the source for. Pretty lousy grounds to buy the allegations that someone treats their animals badly.

 

[Flame_]

All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare .
As is the keeping of horses on poor quality yards with rotten turn out , working horses on poor surfaces , giving them insufficient exercise , letting them get too fat or too thin . Letting improperly qualified ' therapists ' 'treat' lame horses , tolerating the appalling shoeing standards that you see at any show you go to I could go on and on and on and on .
No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.

You have a point but lower level equine activities do have some moral high ground, IMHO. Exercise and activity is beneficial to horses. They're designed to move and move they should to stay strong, sound, healthy and happy. The mental and physical pressure of training at top level is not beneficial to horses, it is extreme stress, wear and tear, and something only a select few can just about stand up to.

 

[Marydoll]

and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.

Couldnt agree more, swift fair dicipline can prevent many problems starting and nip some in the bud

 

[Bojingles]

This is an interesting view...http://epona.tv/dressage-astray-part-one

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

I suspect Tildren and lots of joint injections.

I worked with a vet who was in the veterinary barn at the 2000 Olympics. Let's just say she came back very jaded. The reason these top horses are clipped all year round is because then when they inject a joint, they don't have to leave a suspicious clipped section at the site... And of course joint injections don't swab.

 

[Caol Ila]

Are joint injections so terrible? I used to inject the hocks of my old quarter horse; she was getting arthritic changes and it kept her comfortable for a couple more years of Training and First Level dressage. Because we were in the mountains and all the trail riding involved steep hills, even the trail riders got them done if their horses really started struggling and looking uncomfortable on the hills. It prolonged the careers of a lot of horses.

In the US, there is very much a culture of over-using joint injections. There are people who use them for preventative purposes, and vets will tell you that there's no evidence they prevent arthritis. I would not go that route.

In any event, given that I used them to keep my very low level dressage horse going and I had many friends who did the same for their Training level horses and happy hackers, I can't sit here and cast stones at international GP riders who do the same.

 

[Piaffe123]

I worked with a vet who was in the veterinary barn at the 2000 Olympics. Let's just say she came back very jaded. The reason these top horses are clipped all year round is because then when they inject a joint, they don't have to leave a suspicious clipped section at the site... And of course joint injections don't swab.

I am not sure I agree that joint injections are the evil treatment you're implying, or that this is the sole reason top horses are clipped.

A friend of mine is a competitive dressage rider and her horse has joint injections and is clipped all year round. She has joint injections because of an old injury caused in the field (shock yes this hard working dressage horse is turned out) and the joint injections keep her comfortable to work despite arthritic changes occuring. She is clipped all year round because she works hard and gets hot, it has nothing to do with the joint injections.

IMO if a joint injection is being used to give a horse a few more years working then I don't see a problem with them? Yes you can argue that some of these changes have come about as a result of ill treatment or over work into unnatural paces but frequently, as is the case with my friend, the arthritic changes are a result of something more natural. She'd have had that accident in the field whether she was a happy hacker or a dressage horse and she'd need the injections to keep her comfortable either way as well.

For the record, I am also losing faith in top level dressage. Watching Carl, Charlotte and Fiona is a breath of fresh air when you've watched tense and uncomfortable looking horses. This is why I like watching Valegro, he looks willing to do his work but many many others do not.

 

[Sags_Deer]

sadly like all sport it has got very money based and thus riders will do anything to get and stay at the top

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I think the issue with joint injections (which I'm not against as my veteran has had them) is that you are medicating a comprimised joint with something which is not detected in dope testing. If an oral anti-inflammatory was used it would be against rules as it would be detectable, whereas a steroid injection appears to be allowed as it is not. I'm assuming we're talking about steroid injections here!
My oldie is retired from competition so a none moral issue for me, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable with the notion of injecting to continue competing.

As to the main topic at hand, there will always be those who will try 'anything' to get to the top and if a method is proven to work then I can see why they would continue.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

Sorry, should have been clearer..
They were injecting with cortisone, not with Pentosan. And as AlexHyde has said, steroid injections into joints are not detectable on blood tests, whereas systemic injections are.
Most of these horses would also be getting preventive Pentosan weekly as an IM injection, which is fine IMO. but cortisnoe in joints is a different kettle of fish...

 

[Simon Battram]

quote; the pirouette lose all its value when it is done by a horse who is unable to do a collected canter in 4 times, unquote nuno oliviera.

I`m sure there is someone on here who knows better

You are misunderstanding the difference. Nuno was talking about the rider being able to collect the canter to 4 beat on their aids as opposed to the canter going 4 beat because the horse entered an exercise. Big difference.

Also Nuno Oliveira is not the only classical school so there are various opinions. The Spanish Riding School have existed for longer and have a deeper history and they advocate 3 beat canter for the pirouette.

 

[conniegirl]

Sorry, should have been clearer..
They were injecting with cortisone, not with Pentosan. And as AlexHyde has said, steroid injections into joints are not detectable on blood tests, whereas systemic injections are.
Most of these horses would also be getting preventive Pentosan weekly as an IM injection, which is fine IMO. but cortisnoe in joints is a different kettle of fish...

Corticosteroids are very different from anabolic steroids.

I have no problems with horses requiring corticosteroids to aid joint mobility and health. My 6 yr old has to have them every 3 months in order to stay sound as he has artheritis. Cortico steroids are also commonly used to fix mild kissing spines.

 

[tristar]

simon battram, I didn't misunderstand, it was a direct quote, and before in my first post I said ` as far as I know,` not that it was written in stone.

as you say there are different schools, in the same way there is the german school and the dutch school who use rollkur to some extent.

 

[Steorra]

Dr Hilary Clayton has done some interesting work on footfall analysis in canter pirouettes. Her findings back Tristar's point: that the rhythm is four beat. Of 11 dressage horses videod in the 1992 Olympic games, none produced a three-beat pirouette.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1997.tb05055.x/abstract

 

[ycbm]

Corticosteroids are very different from anabolic steroids.

I have no problems with horses requiring corticosteroids to aid joint mobility and health. My 6 yr old has to have them every 3 months in order to stay sound as he has artheritis. Cortico steroids are also commonly used to fix mild kissing spines.

'aiding joint mobility and health' in this context means 'medicating joint failure' Surely the horse which wins an affiliated competition should do that without joint medication? If they were detectable, surely they would be banned? And if not, why is bute used for exactly the same anti inflammatory purpose not allowed?


On another note, I had no idea these horses were clipped out legs and all in summer, and someone is suggesting this is because they get hot. Since the vast majority of eventers do cross country in the hottest weather without being clipped, and most clipped horses never have their legs clipped, that's a very odd explanation.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

Systemic cortisone to do the same job (keeping a horse sound) would be detectable on a blood test and therefore not allowed. Putting the same compound directly into a joint is not detectable.
I don't think horses which require cortisone in any form to stay sound should be competing. Cortisone does NOT "aid joint mobility and health", it is an anti inflammatory, no more, and may in fact be detrimental to joint health.
Conniegirl, as a vet, I am quite clear on the difference between cortisone and anabolic steroids thank you, and on the different actions of joint support medications and cortisone.

This is from "GUIDE TO THE USE AND AUTHORISATION OF VETERINARY TREATMENT DURING
AN FEI EVENT":

The use of a Prohibited Substances may only be authorised for treatment during an event in exceptional circumstances (FEI General Regulations Article 143 and Veterinary Regulations).
For example, this might include the use of a local anaesthetic to suture a small laceration.
However, intra-articular injections, the use of non-steroidal anti- inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) or conditions requiring repeated treatments will not be authorised.
Whereas it would appear they are in fact happening (or at least they were at that Olympic games).

 

[Pigeon]

Surely the horse which wins an affiliated competition should do that without joint medication? If they were detectable, surely they would be banned?

I think that would wipe out about 70% of the field. Maybe even more.

 

[fburton]

Dressage as a sport has lost it's way and ethical, kind training seems to have been cast aside in pursuit of ever more extravagant "expressive" (expressing what?) movement. Shameful.

Dressage is just another example of where something - in this case extravagance of movement - is considered good and therefore more of it must be better. Well, it just ain't so!

 

[ycbm]

I think that would wipe out about 70% of the field. Maybe even more.

Well now we know from a vet quoting the FEI regulations that they ARE banned, so that would mean that seventy per cent of the field, maybe more, are cheating.

If true, this is shameful

 

[HufflyPuffly]

The use of joint injections is something I find very hard to swallow. My oldie was retired from competitions because of her cushings medication, which has very limited evidence of being performance enhancing but is still banned but I could inject her fetlocks as much as I wanted...

Just truely bonkers in my opinion!

x x

 

[Wheels]

Dr Hilary Clayton has done some interesting work on footfall analysis in canter pirouettes. Her findings back Tristar's point: that the rhythm is four beat. Of 11 dressage horses videod in the 1992 Olympic games, none produced a three-beat pirouette.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1997.tb05055.x/abstract

This really backs up the fact that dressage horses of today are not producing correct paces. Now even more so than the 90s. Back then we maybe needed slow motion to see 4 beat and maybe if you slow it down enough you might find all horses do 4 beat pirouettes (or maybe not) but the judges are judging by the naked eye so canter should look 3 beat but many even to the naked eye are 4 beat and I'm not just meaning pirouettes, that is what is scary, that is what in another 20 years time will be really freaky horses and that is what will ultimately end in horses with really messed up bodies and scary vets bills just as has happened with some of the dog breeds.

Will we never learn?

 

[rara007]

Well now we know from a vet quoting the FEI regulations that they ARE banned, so that would mean that seventy per cent of the field, maybe more, are cheating.

If true, this is shameful

They're only banned during the competition, most of this 70% will have them done at home regularly but not actually mid event.

 

[rara007]

I also don't think it's possible for any neurologically normal horse to do a canter piri in 3 time?

 

[Wheels]

What about normal canter rara?

 

[rara007]

http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.u...co-uk/_img/Horse and Hound Canter Article.pdf

 

[Wheels]

Yes I've seen that thanks. What is your opinion on the points raised in the article? Do you think we should aim to continue breeding horses with a four beat canter and change the rules to allow this and potentially end up with horses that cannot show a basic 3 beat gait - end up with freakshow circus dressage or should we be aiming to breed horses that have naturally correct gaits and improve them through dressage training?

 

[Goldenstar]

I also don't think it's possible for any neurologically normal horse to do a canter piri in 3 time?

This is what I think too ,
As soon as cameras etc where good enough to show exactly what the horse does in a tight pirouette it was clear than the three beat pirouette was a myth .

 

[rara007]

I don't have much on an opinion, I just don't think a 3 beat canter piri has ever been possible so it's not the best thing to base gait purity on. I only do elem on normal (gelding) ponies so stay in 3 beat- when it's not going wrong! I don't really feel I know enough to make a comment on the breeding and production of these elite horse. I can't see the big boys reversing their breeding and back crossing to get back to flatter movement though.
Maybe the 60s is too recent but certainly on the 1964 Olympic videos 4 time collection and piris were common.