Contact Query

[little_critter]

Your posts are always so interesting.

I think we can get trapped (particularly in dressage) in the logical fallacy that the horse isn't strong enough (yet) so we should hold it together to produce the shape. And of course, the more we hold the horse, the more the horse leans, and the horse might get stronger but it doesn't get lighter.

I just looked back at one of the notes I took after a master class with Gareth Hughes:

Gareth talks about the difference between ‘guiding’ and ‘holding’. Guiding a horse is where we want to be. We want to use technique over strength to ride. The difficulty with horses who have been trained by being held is that the more they develop, the stronger they become and therefore the more strength you need to hold them. That is going in the opposite direction of what we are trying to achieve in dressage. When we guide the horse rather than hold the horse, this is what develops self-carriage in the horse. It is that self-carriage without relying on the human to balance the horse that gives you the ability to do things like “give and retake”.

I think a lot of people look at the symptoms rather than train to improve the root cause. I probably fall into the trap too - getting too concerned with things like inconsistency in contact or falling behind the vertical and looking to improve that so that things optically look better but are probably just resulting in a better horse from the pole forward rather than from the core and thoracic sling. Not to say that I don't try to do a lot of work to strengthen the horse properly, but I probably want to quieten the things that make the picture less harmonious more quickly than if they were the last thing to come through from truly strengthening the horse and having the horse find its own balance and self carriage. Thought provoking.

I think of it like yoga.
The exercise you are doing needs to be of benefit to the horse.
The horse gets the benefit from carrying themselves / putting themselves in the positions you request.
If you went to a yoga class and your instructor put you in the yoga poses and held you there, you wouldn’t get the benefit of challenging your body to do it for itself.

 

[Red-1]

I have some thoughts on this.

A good few years back I went to America to co train in 2 or 3 day clinic where the strap line was "English V Western, Good Horsemanship is Universal."

I was there as the English trainer, and the Western was taught by a 3rd generation working cowboy, who also trained many horses (and was a journeyman farrier to boot!).

We both taught mounted, I borrowed his working cow horse and took an English saddle, and used a snaffle (that he'd made me from an old farrier rasp - it is a thing of beauty). He rode his other working horse.

I had half an hour before the clinic started to saddle/bridle and work the horse. He was fascinated while watching, as the horse had never carried an English saddle (I took an Ansur), never been ridden on a contact and hadn't worn a snaffle in about 8 years.

That horse taught me a lot when converting from Western to English. He was a fully trained bridle horse, who responded to the very weight of the rein being picked up, no actual contact. He was a little puzzled with the new way of going, but was easy in the mind and just set about seeking 'the answer' to his new little issue. The issue being that he thought any contact was an instruction or correction.

He was seeking peace.

In his normal way of going, he had peace. A loose rein, and he would respond to the weight of the rein being picked up. I took a soft and elastic contact, and he thought he should lose that, so he tried everything. He slowed, I asked him forward and he responded - knowing that slowing was not what I sought. He lifted his head, I closed my hand, he realised that this is also not what I wanted. He tried lowering and overbending, I rode him out again - he went back to the drawing board. He tried fixing his mouth, I played it and he knew that no, this would not bring peace.

In reality, due to the fantastic training and good mind the horse already had, he worked out that I simply wanted to hold the soft contact, and we could both move and stay in harmony. I was there to ask and advise, he simply held the contact and responded to requests. Simple as that.

Within the half hour, he not only worked out the contact but, as we were there to demonstrate English riding, mainly in dressage (although we did also do jumping in grids and courses) we started to play a bit more. He soon learned to lengthen and shorten, to leg yield, shoulder in etc. He was a superstar and, on his first ride in a contact, could easily have gone and ridden an Elementary test.

His owner was really happy, to see his training was so solid that the horse didn't lose his mind, just adapt to the new circumstances. He was amused to see the horse doing lateral work, and demoed to me the type of lateral work they would normally do, which was sideways but not in collection. He'd never jumped other than to cross open country chasing cows, but also found no issues with adapting to that. I then had the absolute pleasure of riding slide-stops and spins, something totally new to me. I was guilty of thinking that such explosive and dramatic moves would need big aids - not so. A change of weight, a change of rein position, a bump with a leg and woo-who! Or, Ho!

I don't think contact or not is the deciding factor between English and Other, it is more that Other teaches the horse to be self carrying in mind as well as body, from more remote signals.

Another observation... Joe rode my horse weekly when Mr Red died and I couldn't be interested. He was aiming at self carriage, obviously, but H is a big old lump and Joe hauled on the reins a good few times, sitting the horse on his arse, when he was being a big clumsy lump! His method is about, as Mark Rashid once told me, being as light as you can, which may not be as light as you want to be.

I saw Mark give a horse, who was being somewhat 'otherwise' in a clinic, and he mounted it, a real good telling off. He admitted that, on that horse, he certainly couldn't be as light as he wanted to be LOL.

So, I think it is about helping the horse to find peace. Be that with no contact or with a light elastic contact. Anyone wanting a strong contact other than momentary is wrong, IMO.

 

[Ambers Echo]

When Joe first rode Lottie she could look 'nice' but in canter if you dropped the contact she'd pretty much fall over! The weight she needed in-hand to stay balanced was crazy. She was never ever ever even vaguely aproximating self-carriage at aged 8/9 with a long SJ career behind her. But she was schooled weekly by a PSG rider, professional trainer and young horse producer, who assured me she was fine and was going well. This was just how she needed to be ridden. After a year of riding her like that I had one Joe lesson and he turned everything on its head for me. I am happy following Joe, but am now trying to reconcile it with 'Classical' or leg into hand.

Red, yes I do think the 'Other' is a stronger focus on the horse being balanced mentally and physically. I wonder what would happen to higher level dressage if a true test of descente de main was introduced to all higher level competiton riding.

 

[ihatework]

I have some thoughts on this.

A good few years back I went to America to co train in 2 or 3 day clinic where the strap line was "English V Western, Good Horsemanship is Universal."

I was there as the English trainer, and the Western was taught by a 3rd generation working cowboy, who also trained many horses (and was a journeyman farrier to boot!).

We both taught mounted, I borrowed his working cow horse and took an English saddle, and used a snaffle (that he'd made me from an old farrier rasp - it is a thing of beauty). He rode his other working horse.

I had half an hour before the clinic started to saddle/bridle and work the horse. He was fascinated while watching, as the horse had never carried an English saddle (I took an Ansur), never been ridden on a contact and hadn't worn a snaffle in about 8 years.

That horse taught me a lot when converting from Western to English. He was a fully trained bridle horse, who responded to the very weight of the rein being picked up, no actual contact. He was a little puzzled with the new way of going, but was easy in the mind and just set about seeking 'the answer' to his new little issue. The issue being that he thought any contact was an instruction or correction.

He was seeking peace.

In his normal way of going, he had peace. A loose rein, and he would respond to the weight of the rein being picked up. I took a soft and elastic contact, and he thought he should lose that, so he tried everything. He slowed, I asked him forward and he responded - knowing that slowing was not what I sought. He lifted his head, I closed my hand, he realised that this is also not what I wanted. He tried lowering and overbending, I rode him out again - he went back to the drawing board. He tried fixing his mouth, I played it and he knew that no, this would not bring peace.

In reality, due to the fantastic training and good mind the horse already had, he worked out that I simply wanted to hold the soft contact, and we could both move and stay in harmony. I was there to ask and advise, he simply held the contact and responded to requests. Simple as that.

Within the half hour, he not only worked out the contact but, as we were there to demonstrate English riding, mainly in dressage (although we did also do jumping in grids and courses) we started to play a bit more. He soon learned to lengthen and shorten, to leg yield, shoulder in etc. He was a superstar and, on his first ride in a contact, could easily have gone and ridden an Elementary test.

His owner was really happy, to see his training was so solid that the horse didn't lose his mind, just adapt to the new circumstances. He was amused to see the horse doing lateral work, and demoed to me the type of lateral work they would normally do, which was sideways but not in collection. He'd never jumped other than to cross open country chasing cows, but also found no issues with adapting to that. I then had the absolute pleasure of riding slide-stops and spins, something totally new to me. I was guilty of thinking that such explosive and dramatic moves would need big aids - not so. A change of weight, a change of rein position, a bump with a leg and woo-who! Or, Ho!

I don't think contact or not is the deciding factor between English and Other, it is more that Other teaches the horse to be self carrying in mind as well as body, from more remote signals.

Another observation... Joe rode my horse weekly when Mr Red died and I couldn't be interested. He was aiming at self carriage, obviously, but H is a big old lump and Joe hauled on the reins a good few times, sitting the horse on his arse, when he was being a big clumsy lump! His method is about, as Mark Rashid once told me, being as light as you can, which may not be as light as you want to be.

I saw Mark give a horse, who was being somewhat 'otherwise' in a clinic, and he mounted it, a real good telling off. He admitted that, on that horse, he certainly couldn't be as light as he wanted to be LOL.

So, I think it is about helping the horse to find peace. Be that with no contact or with a light elastic contact. Anyone wanting a strong contact other than momentary is wrong, IMO.

What a fascinating write up.
And what a gem the western horse must have been (both in mind but with foundations too), I suspect it would be pretty rare to so readily adapt that quick.

And yes, even the good ‘natural horsemanship’ trainers will have moments of strong/clear black and white with horses.
It’s the fluffy fannying about that us amateurs think is nice, but it often just confusing the horse!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Me again. I've just seen a FB ad for a horse. It's a ranty 'why is no-one interested in this gorgeous mare working at advanced medium with all the talent to go on' ad. Looking at her, every picture has her with a bulging muscle next to the throatlash - sternocephalicus? Horse is also always either BTV or the angle between jaw/head and neck is super narrow and constricted. She looks awful to ride and none too happy either.

The ad goes on to say she's 'spicy' but what do you expect from a talented athletic mare.
All the comments are roundly mocking people swerving this one. (Everyone wants a rocking horse etc)

I'm no expert but even I can see this horse is chronically heavy in the hand and braced. I can literally see the braced muscles bulging! In what are presumably the best pics they have available. And why is she doing so 'well' in her competition career.

Something seems very very wrong to me.

 

[lme]

AE I wouldn't necessarily write off that mare. I originally trained with a classical trainer, for whom lightness was all important, had over 20 years off riding and found it a massive shock when I started riding again and was based with a 'modern competition dressage' trainer who rode with way more leg and a stronger contact than I was used to. That way of riding isn't for me, but I had huge fun on some of my trainer's retired from competition horses, who were happy to adapt to my minimal inputs as long as I stayed balanced, didn't get in their way and let them do their thing.

 

[Ambers Echo]

My issue is not so much that she couldn't learn to be softer, it's that she did well being ridden as seen in the pics. And also that no-one seems to think a contracted and braced neck is a problem.

 

[lme]

My issue is not so much that she couldn't learn to be softer, it's that she did well being ridden as seen in the pics. And also that no-one seems to think a contracted and braced neck is a problem.

In my experience that way of going does get rewarded (or at least isn't penalised as it should be). Its one of the reasons I don't enjoy competition dressage.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Based on what we've been discussing on this thread, today we deliberately played around with dropping the contact with my horse that goes btv so much. After a little bit of llama and then searching down for the contact, she actually found a really nice place and was pootling about quite happily. She's still not strong from behind but I was really happy that she seemed to find her own balance and seemed to be going very happily.

Thanks for the thread idea @Ambers Echo

 

[Ambers Echo]

That looks great! Joe does keep talking about the horse finding the sweet spot. Maybe that's what he means?

I am happy with how Myka feels. I did put a clip on her own thread of her trotting and a circle of canter. She is very light in that whole clip. And at points she is on a loose rein and the final halt came from the seat. Posting videos feels very exposing and in the past plenty of people on here have been hammered for them (not just me) but it would be nice to think we could have some constructive discussions that include actually seeing what people are taking about. I think she looks a little unlevel coming round the bend and felt paranoid when I saw the clip but am assured she is totally sound so assume it was just a momentary balance thing.

I had a jumping lesson yesterday and at no point was contact mentioned. She was consistent and steady in the contact even though my reins were quite long and my contact light. That was the first time that has happened (ie that I have not been told to shorten my reins) so I think that as she is getting more consistent I am being 'allowed' to ride like that more as it's not causing problems that need a correction. Next big test will be a dressage test so I am going to compete her this month and see what the judges think.

 

[Orangehorse]

So let's just add the Karl Phillipe french school of riding! Isn't that what he teaches? All roads lead to Rome, it's just the method of getting there.

I so wish that there was an instructor within easy reach, but sadly they are all miles awa.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Do you mean Philippe Karl - Legerete guy? Not Karl Phillipe Karl? Spanish/Vienna school. Yes I think Approach 1 is aligned well with Phillipe Karl, what little I know of him. Not at all with Karl Phillipe Karl though. Who I think sits firmly in the leg-into-hand approach. Again from what little I know.

I don't really know enough about all the 'schools' - I just know 'Joe's Way' from Joe. Which conflicts repeatedly with everyone else I learn with. Hence my original question. It would be interesting to have a better understanding of the schools though.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Revisiting this. I have started having jumping lessons and as she is so green, they are more like flat lessons with a few poles in the way at the end. Contact has been raised again on the basis that although she offers a 'nice shape' she is too light in the hand so it's a 'false contact' where she 'sits behind it' instead of 'taking the bit forward and down'.

This is echoed in several answers above, eg:

I think you have to be careful with the latter with a horse who could be prone to sitting a little behind the contact, yet fooling you into thinking they are ‘there’ when they aren’t truly through.

I have one who will sit in a fabulous ‘shape’ with the lightest contact, and she’ll trundle about all day like that, doing whatever you ask, but she’s completely disconnected. She needs to be ridden with a firmer contact and a little more drive into it, initially at least.

So I’m going to say that a lot of it is horse dependent.

I’ve seen horses ridden very lightly early on that look soft, but are actually a bit behind the hand rather than confidently going into it, as they are still young and developing their balance, so the 'yield' can end up with the horse behind the contact.

And I realise I don't know what that would feel like. So I asked Joe today if she really was in a false contact when she is super light. He says that it depends how you define 'false'. She is soft. Her mouth is still. I do have a contact, albeit a very light one, as she can feel me on the end of the rein. Her frame is appropriate for her stage of training as a young horse who needs to be a lot stronger to lift more. She is working from behind and is responsive to up and down cues. Ie on the aids. He can't see anything wrong with that.

As I have said before though, I think I'd get a better understanding from someone who cautions against being behind the contact - how would I know and what would change if she was more 'through'?

I had more or less concluded (again as many people have said) that it is purely personal or horse preference and both (if done correctly) are fine. But I am definitely being corrected not just told a new way.

Joe says he does advise dressage clients to 'cheat' by removing the float from the rein to make it look like they have more contact than they do when test riding. It seems absurd that this is necessary!

Also there are clear problems with 'false' heavy contacts, with horses pulled into a frame so perhaps both ways can present a misleading picture of what the horse feels like to ride.

Pics from today. Joe likes this. Can anyone see a problem with it? I really want to understand the 2 approaches - and in particular the 'feeling nice and light but actually sitting behind the contact' comments.

 

[scats]

The best way I can describe it on Millie is that although she’s infront of the leg to a certain extent (she’ll give you trot, canter, walk-canter… basically anything you ask straight away) but the lack of throughness becomes much more obvious for me when I ask for something like medium trot, or generally just a bigger version of the pace I’m in. Basically if ask for more ‘thrust’ from behind, I realise it’s lacking power because she’s not properly through. Or she may pop into canter instead of give a bigger trot.
I also find that rather than her raising her poll slightly during these transitions- in order to take the contact forward- she will often curl a little more behind/sit slightly behind the vertical.

I guess I could liken it a bit to the feeling when you drive and change gears too quickly and your car has to ‘catch up’ to the new gear. You feel that loss of power/disconnect even though the car is still increasing in speed. That’s sort of what I feel if Millie isn’t totally through. I put my foot on the gas and she goes, but she’s not in the correct gear so you feel the attempt to get up to the required speed feels slightly more laboured. When she’s through it’s like she’s in the correct gear instantly and powers forward from the hind legs, rather than drags the pace faster from the front end.

I had a trainer who would often rave about how nicely Millie was going but to me I knew she didn’t feel totally through. I watched a video back and could see how someone would think she was going well, but it frustrated me because it didn’t match what I felt.
It’s only when you ride her and get her fully through and connected and it’s such an incredible feeling that you never want to feel anything other than that ever again!

Your pictures look fine for a horse in her stage of education. She’s still obviously quite downhill and a little ‘strung out’, but she’s big and young so a certain amount of that is inevitable. If she were mine at this stage, I’d try and keep a straighter line of contact to the mouth rather than the slightly dipped rein. You don’t need any more pressure on the mouth to achieve this.

With Millie, to try and stop the curling and sitting just behind the contact, I try to think of the reins as a solid bar that must stay straight at all times. If I push forwards with my hands, I want the ‘bar’ to stay straight and the horses contact to move forwards accordingly. I don’t want constant heavy pressure on the bar, but I want to feel the bit at the end. I don’t want to push my hands forwards and she stays fixed in a ‘show pony’ outline with looped reins.
I do think it’s very horse dependent. I didn’t get Millie until she was 7 so I did have to fix a lot of issues of her having not really been schooled properly. If I’d had her from broken, I may well be able to ride her slightly differently.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks that’s very helpful. I love the gears analogy. That makes perfect sense. So my next question is can you get that surge of power from behind in both approaches? I can’t see why a horse can’t push with a drape in the rein? Ie are they dropping behind the contact as an evasion - so it’s a possible symptom of not being through, but not a cause of it?

 

[foxy1]

I think this is where it becomes about feel rather than how it looks.

To me, a horse that’s light but slightly behind the contact feels like you have a rein, but no real energy coming into it. The neck is soft and the shape is there, but it doesn’t feel like it’s taking you anywhere. In transitions you can get the outline before the power, and in canter it can feel a bit flat or held together. On an approach to a fence, you’re organising rather than being taken.

When they’re properly through, there’s a light weight in the hand. You can feel the hind leg coming into the contact. If you soften, they follow the hand rather than dropping behind it, and the canter feels like it carries you.

I don’t think it’s right vs wrong, more that people are trying to avoid opposite issues (too much hand vs not enough connection). And I do think that lighter, softer feel is often more acceptable in western/NH systems, where there’s less emphasis on developing a canter that takes you forward into a fence, which is probably why you’re getting slightly conflicting advice.

But for young horses being produced to jump, I do think it matters that they learn to go into the hand, not heavy, but properly “there”, as that’s what gives you a canter that will actually take you to a fence rather than one you have to organise.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thank you. Lots more food for thought. I think I’ll try both for now - flat can be lighter with more contact for jumping. Which also means I can keep both lessons going. She seems to move quite happily between styles. A firmer contact does not upset her.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I agree with scats and foxy1.

They need to push into something, how strong the 'something' is depends. I think a light contact can lead more to a 'false' outline as it's easy for them to be trundling along not using themselves correctly but looking pretty as it can be harder to 'feel' in a lighter contact, but you can still get them properly through and still have a light contract, to foxy1 point, when Topaz was more through the contact actually got lighter as she more on her hocks and sitting.

I'd want more input for training a young horse how to jump, so a stronger contact makes sense to me there as it could be dangerous to not have a more instant, explicit communication when approaching a jump. I think you're doing great and making me think I should really get Beryl going properly and stop just hacking her about .

 

[palo1]

Thanks that’s very helpful. I love the gears analogy. That makes perfect sense. So my next question is can you get that surge of power from behind in both approaches? I can’t see why a horse can’t push with a drape in the rein? Ie are they dropping behind the contact as an evasion - so it’s a possible symptom of not being through, but not a cause of it?

Yes, a horse can absolutely push from behind with a drape in the rein/very light contact. It is clearly demonstrated in good Western riding but also in some if the classical European schools. My understanding is that this is the true purpose of leg into a soft, giving or instructional hand, rather than the compressing and strongly holding hand that we see in dressage almost universally.

The 'problem' is that it's a long journey, not necessarily easy to teach or learn and the wastage rate in dressage horses and riders would be entirely unacceptable to most people (though not all) if this was actually the standard...so we are in a bind where, because of the money and the industry we 'accept' the more brutal version that we see as normal. This is probably exacerbated by the fact we are breeding leggy, hypermobile horses with the 'spectacular' paces - horses which conformationally may struggle more to achieve the strength and stability to really push from behind without being held up in front.

At least that is what I understand and see! (influenced by my trainer hahaha).

 

[CoachinaCar]

I would be wary of trying to push a horse into the bridle, on the whole they just go faster and can duck behind the contact more. When the horse lets go through its body and works through to the contact it will pick up the rein itself.

I would trot canter trot canter trot canter, over and over, riding some transitions within the canter sometimes in between the trot and canter, this will help the horse to let go through the body and you will find that when you come forward to trot you suddenly have a different trot and feel through to the rein, you then stay in trot and enjoy it, when you lose it trot canter trot canter again until it happens again. Most horses trot better after a canter so this exercise does it for you and the horse comes naturally into the contact you are looking for, some horses that will be stronger than others but you will know the feeling when you get it as it feels amazing.

 

[daffy44]

Thank you. Lots more food for thought. I think I’ll try both for now - flat can be lighter with more contact for jumping. Which also means I can keep both lessons going. She seems to move quite happily between styles. A firmer contact does not upset her.

Firm contact implies stronger to me, I apologise if thats not your intent, but try to think of the contact being more consistent instead. Try thinking that each hand feels each side of her mouth, lightly, softly but consistently, you want the contact to be soft and elastic, then the horse trusts it and starts to reach for it, and then you can take the nose out, but in order to achieve that soft elasticity you need to start with a consistent contact, but not strong.

The transitions mentioned above, canter trot canter etc are absolutely brilliant for so many things, and certainly for asking the horse to become more engaged, they are fantastic.