Copyright enforcement - A new approach

I absolutely agree with RachelFerd. The problem is most photographers just aren't listening to what customers want. There is then a lot of stamping of feet & wailing from them about how they are being stolen.
Most people just want a small, cheap, low res image to share on FB. They don't want to pay a lot for it. That's just fact.
I do understand about costs/time involved but photographers need a model of business that stops your images being stolen (either by offering what customers want or a successful way of making the proofs unstealable)
For the record I will pay £10 - 15 per image if it's printed out there at the competition.
If I have to wait for images to go onto a website then if there's an option I will buy a couple of low res images for up £5 each but unlikely to pay anymore or order anything else. I just post a link to the pictures if I want to share them.

I have bought a low res image in the past for £4. After 6 months the horse had to be retired so I went back to the photographer & purchased several other large images.
 
I also think that advertisers should take some responsibility. I work in marketing and wouldn't dream of using a watermarked image.

In relation to selling horses on the likes of H&H, horse deals, horse quest etc, all ads should be moderated, and editors do scan all pages so if any advert features a water marked image, that photo should be removed from the advert. This could be mentioned in the small print if the sales contract when submitting adverts.

I know its difficult for mags selling advertising as they rely on the income they generate, but I do think they also have an ethical responsibility. After all, they wouldn't be happy with people reproducing their magazine/web content.
 
glamourpuss said:
I absolutely agree with RachelFerd. The problem is most photographers just aren't listening to what customers want. There is then a lot of stamping of feet & wailing from them about how they are being stolen.
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Not liking the price is not an excuse to steal, as a businessman I can set my prices at whatever level I want, as a clever business man I listen to my clients and potential clients. If you are not getting the products/service you want then let the organisers know.
Most people just want a small, cheap, low res image to share on FB. They don't want to pay a lot for it. That's just fact.
I do understand about costs/time involved but photographers need a model of business that stops your images being stolen (either by offering what customers want or a successful way of making the proofs unstealable)
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The only system to stop stealing is to not post anything to the Internet, I have tested all the others.
For the record I will pay £10 - 15 per image if it's printed out there at the competition.
If I have to wait for images to go onto a website then if there's an option I will buy a couple of low res images for up £5 each but unlikely to pay anymore or order anything else. I just post a link to the pictures if I want to share them.
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Mike
 
Also, re cheaper images...

I used to work as an assistant photographer at BE events. I would to get paid the same amount regardless of how many images were sold. Therefore the 'boss' had to factor in the following costs:
Photographers
Trade Stand staff
Runners (retrieving memory cards from around the course at hourly intervals through the day)
The actual trade stand/marquee etc
Stands for trade stand
Marketing materials (flags or display boards outside the stand, business cards, branded envelopes, key rings etc)
Staff uniform
Food for staff through the day
Computers for trade stand
Printing materials
Fuel for getting everyone to event (often over 100 miles away)
Camera equipment

Oh, and not forgetting that they usually have to pay to attend in the first place.

Being an event photographer is a very expensive business - not many make a lot of money from it, but do it becuase they love it. Selling images at £1-£2 is unfeasiable - you would have to sell hundreds of images before you broke even.

Just my two penneth's worth lol

And I feel your pain as I love to have pro pics if I compete my horse anywhere....however, for FB, if I dont want to pay for the pro pic, I rely on pics taken by friends. After all, I wouldnt walk into a shop and steal a picture frame, so why would I steal the thing to go in to it?
 
Whilst I agree that it is your right to set your prices at whatever you want it is foolhardy to not price yourself competively or offer what customers want.

I have a small business providing invoicing/billing services for private medical services. I initially offered a totally complete package (checking patient details, generating invoices, posting out, following up & ensuring they get paid, chasing up any non payments, providing & keeping all records of payments)
However I found that there wasn't much uptake.... In fact a few cheeky beggars copied some of my models to do their own invoices!
So instead I offered a smaller & cheaper service (basically just creating & sending out the invoices) Now I do a higher volume of work with this...yep I'm sure a few of my invoice templates are in circulation having been 'tweaked' & 'stolen' but I have to accept that some people want something for nothing but by keeping my services efficient & good value, I keep making a living.
It's business.
 
But at £2 an image you probably would sell 100's! You could just take email addresses & email the low res photo later on that evening/next day.
My business I'm currently offering something cheaper but my volume has significantly increased so I make more money!
 
glamourpuss said:
But at £2 an image you probably would sell 100's! You could just take email addresses & email the low res photo later on that evening/next day.
My business I'm currently offering something cheaper but my volume has significantly increased so I make more money!
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Exactly this!! A friend of mine decided to come along to our RC camp and sell the photos - not a pro photographer but a good one. He offered us £5 per high res jpeg, £10 for 3, £20 for 10 or £30 for all photos of that person. Normally, I won;t spend more than maybe £15 - but for a folder of good photos (up to 35 or 40 each) I would happily hand over £30. So did most of the people there! I know its a different market, but its things to consider branching to as alternate ways of bringing in money.

Yes, if they are on the internet, people will steal them - like all music, graphics, movies, ebooks etc. However you have to factor whether those people stealing would have bought anything anyway, or whether you make more sales from having them on the web. Annoying, yes, but is it profitable in general?
 
khalswitz said:
Personally, I wish the option of 'buy a print, get a very low res jpeg for Facebook for an extra £1/2' was an option, as I'd do that. The social media aspect is what motivates me to even buy the prints.

I really hope my regular photographer doesn't feel as offended as yourself by my sharing, as I respect him a lot and don't want to upset him. I will refrain from doing so again - although I will still link to the website to show images on social media as there is no other viable option.

Also you can;t just say I;ve given you an idea and not tell what it is!!
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I think if your regular photographer found out you had the watermarked image on your facebook they would not be impressed, whether you bought it or not. I had people think this was ok too- I know you bought the image, you know you bought the image, but most people viewing your profile don't know you bought it and therefore probably think you haven't paid for it, and thus copying a watermarked image is acceptable, so will do the same. See where I'm coming from? I don't want your 'advertising', most photographers advertise on social media enough that people know who the event photographer was.

I offer low res images for £4, my watermark has the word 'stolen' in big capital letters across the photos. Since implementing both of these things copyright theft has decreased BUT I know it's not stopped it altogether and I know there are people out there that I haven't caught. If I catch them, their pictures don't go on the internet again from any other event- they must buy on the day. Simples.

A lot of riders don't realise how much is involved in setting up an event photography business and how time consuming it is. The turning up on the day is the easy bit! That said I do thing event photographers need to wise up and sort out their products/pricing- if the cheapest option you offer on your website is a 9x6 print for £12 plus postage, it's kind of no wonder people will nick photos. Not an excuse, but it doesn't help the situation. Some photographers say that offering low res images decreases sales- I'm sat here with 25 print orders ready to be sent from this weekend's events and last night completed 8 or 9 low res digital orders- so that doesn't ring true either.

Some event photographers don't help themselves by standing on their high horses and moaning about copyright theft, but they don't interact with their customers, don't listen to what they have to say. I'm lucky in that I know a lot of my customers personally as I used to compete, and a lot of my friends are horsey- so am known on the local circuit anyway. Also those event togs who charge £15 for a social media digital image- pricing themselves out of the market.

I won't sell a low res image for £2, they still have to go through the same processing and editing as a print, and you still have to take the time to upload the images to the website. I can sell 3 images for £12 or 6 images for the same price- but my workload will almost be doubled with editing. Same goes for prints- no point making them ridiculously cheap- it then means my team and myself have to work a lot harder than we already do to cover our costs.

For those that say about pics on a cd or dongle- if we put all your photos on a cd for you to take home this normally means there is no chance of repeat sales, after event sales as you've got all the pictures to do as you please, hence why they are normally expensive.

dollymix makes a good point r.e. outlays, I will add to that list employers and 3rd party liability insurance, mine is currently £325 a year, not cheap and yet another expense. All of our supplies have to be bought up front, a box of media for my printer is just shy of £100, it all adds up.

Those of you moaning about event togs- come and do a week in our shoes! Not just the actual show day, but the days leading up to and following it. I spent Sat and Sun at 3 events last weekend, Monday uploading images from 3 events this weekend, Tues sorting out images for press releases, riding clubs, Wed processing orders, meant to have an evening SJ tonight if the weather bucks its ideas up, Thurs sorting out sales trailer and Wed evening's images, Fri getting things ready for Sat and Sun. And then it all starts again. I love my job and wouldn't have it any other way but I think people seriously underestimate the amount of work that goes into running such a company.
 
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Twizzel said:
I think if your regular photographer found out you had the watermarked image on your facebook they would not be impressed, whether you bought it or not. I had people think this was ok too- I know you bought the image, you know you bought the image, but most people viewing your profile don't know you bought it and therefore probably think you haven't paid for it, and thus copying a watermarked image is acceptable, so will do the same. See where I'm coming from? I don't want your 'advertising', most photographers advertise on social media enough that people know who the event photographer was.
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Hadn't considered that side of it. Thanks.

I do think a print and low res jpeg together for slightly cheaper than both individually would be a hit though (maybe not £2 but if you've already edited for the print it wouldn't be too much extra work surely?) - I would buy the prints and definitely spend a wee bit extra to get a jpeg for Facebook of it too.
 
Yes agreed- I offer a 9x6 print for £12 or the print plus jpeg for £14. Individually the print is £12 and jpeg is £4. Eagle eyed customers of mine will notice that purchased images tend to go online on our facebook page with a discreet watermark in the bottom, obviously if they want the watermark free version they have to pay £4.
 
Twizzel said:
Yes agreed- I offer a 9x6 print for £12 or the print plus jpeg for £14. Individually the print is £12 and jpeg is £4. Eagle eyed customers of mine will notice that purchased images tend to go online on our facebook page with a discreet watermark in the bottom, obviously if they want the watermark free version they have to pay £4.
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See, that I would definitely do.

Also very good idea, having a watermarked version taggable for those who have purchased - and it's official too.
 
Last show I went to, I had 2 horses there for 2 1/2 days, and I ended up buying no photographs at all, though I did mean to go and have a look at them at the stand before I left but I ended up being too busy and forgot.
A 6x8 print was £20, which I thought was too much really. £4 for a jpeg would be very acceptable, I'd have bought a few instead of nothing at all.
 
Sounds very steep but was it a higher level/championship show? £20 for a pic from a local riding club show or local BS/BD show is steep, but £20 for a pic from a winter finals or championship or premier show like hoys is probably quite reasonable. It's all relative in regards to the cost of attending the show.
 
Yes, it was, you're right, it was Nationals.

I will go and see if I can find their website and see what they charge for other shows as a comparison.


eta - No, there seems to be a standard price as I've just gone into what looks like a unaffiliated shows folder and it's the same price. Good news is it appears the prices have come down all round and it's only £17 for a 6x8 print now.
 
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The other thing that photographers need to consider is that most people want their pictures quickly. I think that is another reason why images get stolen.
If an option to get a low res image cheaply & quickly was available before images went on the photographers website it would further cut stealing IMO.
Personally what I would do is have a laptop at the competition. Let riders view the proofs at the comp. For £4 they can then have a low res unedited image emailed to them within 24 hours.
I then wouldn't upload edited images to my website until a week later. If people wanted to have their proofs to view on the website before this time they would be able to contact me with their rider number....i think once people contact you to see their pictures you will be weeding out the thieves from the genuine enquiries.
I'm sure there are gaping holes in this but I think it would go a long way in stopping the thefts
 
TBH I would propose a new model altogether, not sure how it would actually work in practice, but hey ho!

Shows pay a certain amount to the photographer (a daily rate) which is factored into the entry fees for the event. Photographer provides lo-res digital images free for everyone to use available online. Can then charge for prints at a normal rate. Could be win-win, since show centres would attract people with the 'free photographs', tog knows he will be paid, and those who want to pay for prints still can.

I do think that the pompous attitude of photographers does not help sometimes!! The many hundreds that seem to expect their customers to pay £20 for a jpeg... seriously????
 
RachelFerd said:
The many hundreds that seem to expect their customers to pay £20 for a jpeg... seriously????
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I agree that not offering a reasonably priced jpg is foolish and poor business sense in this day and age. But if you don't want to pay the price for an item, you just don't buy it - you don't steal it instead!

Plus many of the photographers round here offer jpgs for £5 and less, and instant downloads, but people still screenprint the images.

I do think part of the solution is to ensure that competitors are aware it is wrong to screenprint the images, which I think is beginning to happen and threads like this help in this process. But now I think we also need to make stealing images as socially unacceptable as stealing from shops. In my mind, liking a blatantly stolen photo on Facebook, or complimenting the poster on it, is condoning the theft. Would you compliment someone on their dress, if you knew they had stolen it? (Even if they had stolen it from a shop with unreasonably high prices?)
 
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glamourpuss said:
The other thing that photographers need to consider is that most people want their pictures quickly. I think that is another reason why images get stolen.
If an option to get a low res image cheaply & quickly was available before images went on the photographers website it would further cut stealing IMO.
Personally what I would do is have a laptop at the competition. Let riders view the proofs at the comp. For £4 they can then have a low res unedited image emailed to them within 24 hours.
I then wouldn't upload edited images to my website until a week later. If people wanted to have their proofs to view on the website before this time they would be able to contact me with their rider number....i think once people contact you to see their pictures you will be weeding out the thieves from the genuine enquiries.
I'm sure there are gaping holes in this but I think it would go a long way in stopping the thefts
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Printing on the day means you can catch impulse purchases and you want to sell a premium product that people take away, not a digital JPEG. Not everyone can or wants to view on the day so most photographers put pics online within 24hrs of the event whilst it is still fresh in people's minds, so with holding images from the web for so long is crazy as you miss out on a 2nd wave of sales.

I like the shows pay a flat fee to the photographer but most shows would not pay anywhere near what the photographer would deem as a reasonable amount considering there would be no after sales and staff costs need to come out of it, even for a local show it would be minimum of £500.
 
You could still catch the 2nd wave of sales, if they wish to see their proofs before the end of the week they send you an email. You could put then put these images on your website straight away.
I think that by having contact with the 'tog it would prevent them stealing the image. Kind of would do away with this 'Who's going to know?' attitude.
 
I can see what you mean to an extent, but the other issue to bear in mind is time, once pictures are online we only have to spend time processing orders after the event. To have to sort through photos of riders, "I was on a bay in the 2ft6" along with 20 or 30 other people! Hugely time draining and once I've got photos online from the weekends events I'm then looking towards next weekend and preparing for that. Especially with county or national shows, if you have several hundred people email you to put their pics online it is just not feasible.

The answer is to educate riders not make it harder to view photos. Sorry if that's not an overly succinct reply, currently stood in a sj ring!
 
Speaking as a regular customer of event photographers, I agree. I want to view photos easily online in a day or two after the event, often don't have time on the competition day. I wouldn't be comfortable emailing for proofs as would feel under more obligation to buy.
 
As a photographer I find the cynicism of some riders breathtaking. At the event they will pop in to the sales trailer to look at their pics, sometimes leave without saying a word, sometimes query when the images will be online or maybe even have a pleasant chat about their round etc, where they'll be next, where we will be next. So they don't buy today because the pics weren't quite right or they bought some last week, last month etc. Soon as the gallery is online, you find a Flipagram video of all your/their screenprinted watermarked pictures from that event proudly displayed on their social media profile with all their riding chums going oh your amazing, great pics etc. The one that really makes me spit feathers is when the rider apologises for the poor quality of the watermarked images... Why are these same riders so often on the regional youth squads etc, very often sponsored to boot. Shocking behaviour and totally deserving of a hefty invoice in the post for copyright theft.
 
I hate the reviewers "oh look at your feet in that one, your hands are too low or your centre of gravity is wrong" no intention of buying, just occupying the sales terminals as if we should be grateful.

Mike
 
For eventing where start lists and times are readily available, could you just not take photos of anyone who you know has stolen images in the past. When they ask why there are no photos of them, you could explain with hopefully a large crowd listening.
 
tiggs said:
For eventing where start lists and times are readily available, could you just not take photos of anyone who you know has stolen images in the past. When they ask why there are no photos of them, you could explain with hopefully a large crowd listening.
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I have at one event turned my back on the competitor and left the ring as they entered. Organisers asked what is happening so I explained. They gave me their full backing.

Mike
 
I create images for riders to share and add my website address but no copyright notice or symbol. The images from the gallery that have been stolen can be clearly identified.
What we really need is a standard for images that can be shared i.e. copyright, leave alone and licenced for can be shared on social media.

Mike
 
I mainly do endurance, and they often send pics with the option to either pay for them, or send them back. I will say a couple of times I have forgotten to do either. Not because I don't want to pay, but because life gets in the way. Thankfully this doesn't happen much anymore!!
I would also say photographers need to make sure they put a label on the back of photos. I would like a replacement for a damaged photo, but there is nothing on the back to say who took it!!
On the low res option, I would have bought all 3 pics of me at a recent (rare for me) XC, if I could have bought low res copies, but non of them were really good enough to print, the best pic they took they managed to lop the bottom off the fence so it looked all wrong, which is a real shame.
 
I also think photographers would make a lot more money by offering low res digital images by email for eg £4 for 1 or £10 for 3 For me to pay £12 for a print it has to be perfect but most aren't, no matter how good the photographer so I don't bother. However for less money I would buy at least 1 image virtually every time. It becomes worth buying the comedy type ones to post you would never pay "proper" money for. I do appreciate all the costs involved and that a small number of photographers do offer this. Sadly none local to me though :-( Overall, I am sure they would make much more money doing this.
As a matter of interest, I feel that if I have paid for a print, I am able to scan it and post in on FB, I presume this is true?
 
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