Copyright enforcement - A new approach

[meardsall_millie]

Actually the only ones we are complaining about are the ones that are not customers, as I have said a number of times the issue is not the 99% but the 1% and no these are not just young riders, it goes across the complete spectrum of riding ages and abilities.

Mike

And the people the supermarkets target are not customers either if they are stealing.

You have now had a number of people on this thread expressing how aggrieved they are by your comments (and other togs too). Can you really not appreciate how much this is alienating your potential paying customers?!

 

[meardsall_millie]

The reason they get uptight is because they are running a business which needs to make a profit! If someone illegally copies an image rather than buying it, then that reduces their income. And whilst each image may only bring in a few pounds, when illegal copying is widescale then they are losing a lot of money.

I think it's very unlikely they are losing a sale as it's highly unlikely those people would have bought the picture anyway!

(Still not saying stealing is right......)

 

[mikedpe]

And the people the supermarkets target are not customers either if they are stealing.

You have now had a number of people on this thread expressing how aggrieved they are by your comments (and other togs too). Can you really not appreciate how much this is alienating your potential paying customers?!

So we should just not talk about this at all? Repeatedly in this and other threads photographers have asked how we can stop the issues, provide a better service etc. etc. - I started the thread because I am having success and being supported by riders in getting images removed or paid for. The only financial benefitters are the Air Ambulance. Many of the postings clearly demonstrate that there needs to be more education about the legal implications of image theft as many do not understand or know but choose to ignore. From the photographers side there may be more that some can do but there are a lot more riders than there are photographers so surely that is a good place to go and discuss such issues?

Mike

 

[TGM]

I think it's very unlikely they are losing a sale as it's highly unlikely those people would have bought the picture anyway!

(Still not saying stealing is right......)

You'd be surprised actually, have seen people who routinely copied watermarked images now posting bought ones instead. How much is due to the availability of reasonably priced jpgs and instant downloads, greater awareness of the illegalities of their actions or the increased vigilance of togs on social media sites I don't know.

 

[mikedpe]

You'd be surprised actually, have seen people who routinely copied watermarked images now posting bought ones instead. How much is due to the availability of reasonably priced jpgs and instant downloads, greater awareness of the illegalities of their actions or the increased vigilance of togs on social media sites I don't know.

Why are a number of photographers now doing this? In part it is due to having good conversations with riders such as the long thread that Spidge posted about.

Mike

 

[Twizzel]

You'd be surprised actually, have seen people who routinely copied watermarked images now posting bought ones instead. How much is due to the availability of reasonably priced jpgs and instant downloads, greater awareness of the illegalities of their actions or the increased vigilance of togs on social media sites I don't know.

Yes I too have had customers in the past realise the error of their ways and have purchased those photographs- and photos from future shows, so copyright infringement does affect our sales.

 

[TGM]

So we should just not talk about this at all? Repeatedly in this and other threads photographers have asked how we can stop the issues, provide a better service etc. etc. - I started the thread because I am having success and being supported by riders in getting images removed or paid for. The only financial benefitters are the Air Ambulance. Many of the postings clearly demonstrate that there needs to be more education about the legal implications of image theft as many do not understand or know but choose to ignore. From the photographers side there may be more that some can do but there are a lot more riders than there are photographers so surely that is a good place to go and discuss such issues?

Mike

I think the problem has not been so much with the original intention of the thread, but some of the side issues raised further along. Particularly, I should say the one about customers viewing the images on the stand but then not buying. Whilst I appreciate it was attempt to illustrate some of the frustrations of being an event photographer, I do think you run the risk of putting people off viewing unless they are 100% certain they want to buy. Sometimes people aren't intending to buy when they go in, and in fact are just having a nosey at the pics, but even they have the potential to be swayed if they spot an exceptional photo. Likewise the comment about people asking for a discount, it is part and parcel of the job I think, and as long as people accept 'no' as an answer and aren't persistent about it, then it shouldn't be a problem. If they expect a discount, however, and are stroppy when refused, that is a totally different kettle of fish, and I can understand you wanting to moan about that.

 

[Houndman]

Our photographer puts small low res images up and only sells prints unless by prior arrangement and the deal is that they are not uploaded onto the internet. His prints are very reasonable and he says he actually does more trade that way. He puts some images out with his name at the bottom and says that anyone can use them for free provided they ask first and credit him with them, including his name and contact details, which forms advertising for him.

Most of his business is with private customers who pay a set fee for so many photographs which includes the title to reproduce them, and if anyone copies them, it's their problem as he has already been paid.

The prices of licensed images has come down now, partly due to trying to avoid people using them without authorisation by making them cheaper, and also a lot to do with amateurs posting their own photos on stock photo sites as a means of making a few £s on the side.

Once the photographs are in public view, although it is illegal for people to reproduce them, in reality you have little control. You can waste hours of time that could be used for work in asking websites to take images down, and you could spend a fortune taking people to court and not recovering your costs anyway.

Trouble is, with the internet, people are used to copying images and music now, and it is so widespread it is almost the norm.

 

[Tnavas]

Actually the only ones we are complaining about are the ones that are not customers, as I have said a number of times the issue is not the 99% but the 1% and no these are not just young riders, it goes across the complete spectrum of riding ages and abilities.

Mike

As I said earlier - the only person likely to buy a picture is the owner/rider which is a very limited market. I rarely buy more than one photo despite there being many available.

Personally I feel that there should not be copyright on photos, they are hardly artistically planned but just a lucky capture of the moment.

Levi don't get a copyright payment every time you wear there jeans, or the latest outfit you are wearing, a logo on the item if suffices!

If photographers are so unhappy, do what was done in times before digital, make contact prints and pin them up at the show. That's how I always got my pics in the past. The photographer had a mobile developing unit.

If you place photos in a media that is easy to copy from you only have yourselves to blame.

 

[mikedpe]

I should say the one about customers viewing the images on the stand but then not buying.

That was somewhat misunderstood, we all want riders to be looking at our images and we will all accept that maybe we did not get a good shot of that rider on the day, we are after all only human and therefore we make mistakes. (read spidges explanation for more) and therefore they will not purchase. I go in to shops, fail to find anything interesting and leave without purchasing.

I have however seen on a number of occasions Riders purely coming in to view with no intention of even considering to purchase. They will talk through their performance to any who will listen or we get the mum/coach/trainer talk them through. In an empty marquee fine, in a packed viewing area with people that want to look because they want to buy it is an issue. How do we know they would not buy? Often because we have seen them do the same before.

I personally have no issue with people looking for a deal, in fact we run a number on site, the only thing that I find offensive is when people say "I am only prepared to pay xyz, you will lose if you do not accept". There is probably not a photographer amongst us who has evaluated the situation and taken slightly less than the listed price for an image. I have even been known to give images away

Mike

 

[cavalo branco]

Just read some of this thread and enjoyed Spidge's account of a typical photographer's weekend!Btw lighten up guys, it was supposed to be funny!!
I have loads of sympathy for professional photographers and the stealing of images. Imagine spending a long day at the office and your boss not paying you because he got a quicker result himself. I must be old-fashioned (call that old!) but some poster's moral compass seems non-existent. I'm still not sure if you are allowed to use the image once you have bought the actual print? Come on horsey folk, it is lovely to be able to buy professional photos so let's support the industry.

 

[Jo_x]

To be honest I can't understand why equine photographers get so uptight about their photos as the only person likely to buy the photo is the horses owner/rider and they are only likely to buy one or two.

Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.

What use is advertising when, as you have pointed out, the only person that is likely to buy the image is the person in it?!

 

[dollymix]

Just read some of this thread and enjoyed Spidge's account of a typical photographer's weekend!Btw lighten up guys, it was supposed to be funny!!
I have loads of sympathy for professional photographers and the stealing of images. Imagine spending a long day at the office and your boss not paying you because he got a quicker result himself. I must be old-fashioned (call that old!) but some poster's moral compass seems non-existent. I'm still not sure if you are allowed to use the image once you have bought the actual print? Come on horsey folk, it is lovely to be able to buy professional photos so let's support the industry.

I loved Spidge's response - very funny! And thank you - you have restored my faith in human decency and good (old) fashioned moral values!

 

[Twizzel]

As I said earlier - the only person likely to buy a picture is the owner/rider which is a very limited market. I rarely buy more than one photo despite there being many available.

Personally I feel that there should not be copyright on photos, they are hardly artistically planned but just a lucky capture of the moment.

Levi don't get a copyright payment every time you wear there jeans, or the latest outfit you are wearing, a logo on the item if suffices!

If photographers are so unhappy, do what was done in times before digital, make contact prints and pin them up at the show. That's how I always got my pics in the past. The photographer had a mobile developing unit.

If you place photos in a media that is easy to copy from you only have yourselves to blame.

No but Levi would be slightly miffed if you remade those jeans and used their logo.

We take lots of photos, not because we think you will buy them all, but because we like to give you a choice of images from your day if you would like to buy one.

I like to think that my photos are artistically planned and not a lucky capture- lucky implies that you've caught that moment on the off chance- If I cover any event every single competitor needs to be photographed- that doesn't require luck, it requires skill. I plan all of my photos- I walk the course before a xc event not just taking note of the jumps, but the backgrounds, the light, weather conditions. Whether or not we have covered that jump recently. How many competitors are in every class. Our photographers are trained to look for those golden moments and when they may occur- such as those candid shots in a showing ring or patting/elation shots after a dressage test. So I take offence at you insinuating that my job is down to luck, there is a huge element of planning and preparation to make the day run smoothly and the photos fantastic, see spidge's post.

If copyright wasn't in place our images would be worthless. They would belong to anyone and everyone who staked a claim to them. Therefore we would be out of a career.

Modern day event photographers are listening to the majority of people who want to see images on screens before they buy- do you really just buy from a tiny thumbnail? Were you ever shown the image on a computer screen before it was printed? The way we display our images at events is not the cause for copyright theft (although some will try to take photos of our screens), but the requirement that we print on site and have an active website for post event purchases is often what sways an event organiser from choosing us to be the official photographer than someone else.

 

[Twizzel]

Just read some of this thread and enjoyed Spidge's account of a typical photographer's weekend!Btw lighten up guys, it was supposed to be funny!!
I have loads of sympathy for professional photographers and the stealing of images. Imagine spending a long day at the office and your boss not paying you because he got a quicker result himself. I must be old-fashioned (call that old!) but some poster's moral compass seems non-existent. I'm still not sure if you are allowed to use the image once you have bought the actual print? Come on horsey folk, it is lovely to be able to buy professional photos so let's support the industry.

Most photographers, especially if you ask them will have no issues with you using the image on social media. Using the image to sell a horse or for commercial gain is another matter entirely and again not one that many people understand. But if a rider has bought a print from me I am happy for them to put it onto social media- even though in the eyes of the law that would be breech of copyright as you have reproduced the image, the person has bought the print and supported us so I won't be uptight and ask for it to be removed.

 

[spidge]

Turn my back for a couple of hours and I miss all the fun. For the record I have had several different careers over the years because I have this personality defect- I get bored quite easily. Also for the record I love my job and have no intention of changing it for a nice warm office- I had that and got bored :-/

Twenty percent of our annual turnover is done online- if people want to purchase that way, it's their prerogative. Although we can print on site, can upload to Facebook, Dropbox or email images direct from a show, there are certain customers who will only ever buy online.

I mentioned previously a long thread on here started by me. That and subsequent threads changed the course of my tottering equestrian event photography career. We redefined our products, our pricing, our workflow, how we engage with customers, how we define our web strategy, social media presence etc. Without listening to what I was being told by riders I doubt my business would have survived. I still pop back here every now and again to ask for feedback because in my opinion there are very many well respected, erudite and helpful people on here with a wealth of experience, to ignore their views would be foolish. There's a fair percentage of trolls but hey that's tinternet and forums for you.

So to summarise, yes my long post in reply to Meardsall Millie was very much in jest- totally agree touche!

To break ranks slightly I genuinely believe that many equestrian togs need to sharpen their games and their pencils or maybe just open their ears to what they are being told It's good to talk but sometimes better to just listen.

 

[TGM]

There are lots of points I want to respond to so shall put them all together rather than quoting lots of different posts!

To Mikedpe: As I said earlier, I think this type of thread is great and it is really good for photographers and riders to discuss the implications of copyright, plus what they each expect from each other. However, if you are a business you do have to think quite carefully how things are phrased so as not to alienate those who would otherwise support your arguments. The bit about viewing photos but not buying clearly touched a chord amongst readers here, and me personally, as I often view on the day but either don't buy at all, or buy online a couple of days later. Obviously, that wasn't what you intended, but people read what you say, rather than what you mean to say! A common problem on the internet, but particularly tricky for the business person trying to foster good relations. It's just a shame it detracted from your very valid points on all the other issues!

And I do remember that first thread that Spidge did about five years ago - very clearly because I remember contributing to it. At that point, being a keen amateur photographer, I would always take my own photos at competitions and would rarely buy from the pro, as prices were too high for me to justify, and often photos weren't available in jpg form. It has been heartening to see how Spidge and other photographers have taken onboard so many of those points, and event photography in our area has been transformed to the point that I don't often have to take my camera out with me now as can rely on buying low res jpgs cheaply (and I hate putting up warm up jumps with a DSLR slung round my neck or having to sprint to get to the best XC jump in time).

Which brings me to another point, which is Tnavas's assertion that there is no art in event photography! As I say I do photography as a hobby and can assure you that there is just as much skill involved in photographing horses in action as there is in composing a lovely landscape or portrait. You need a skilful eye to get that moment when the horse is in mid flight with all four feet off the ground, plus there is a knack knowing exactly where to stand and get the best angle, the best background, the best light etc. Not to mention quick thinking if one of your subjects takes the alternative route when you weren't expecting it! You could send six different people to the same jump, armed with the same kind of camera, and I could guarantee that you would get six very different shots, some of them not very good at all!

As for going back to the system in the olden days, I am ancient enough to remember it well! In those days you usually hacked to the local hunter trial, where you would find the course consisted of logs, hedges, post and rail fences, ditches and water - none of these fancy houses, aeroplanes or arrowheads that you get these days. A few weeks later you would get a hand addressed envelope containing postage stamp sized proofs of your photos. After squinting at them from several angles, you would take a gamble which was the best shot, fill in the paper form, write your cheque, put it in an envelope then walk to the local postbox and send it off. About a month later you would receive that distinctive brown hardbacked envelope which you open to find your print and discover that your flies are undone, you are gurning exquisitely and your steed has his eyes shut and his ears flat back! Not really worth framing, so you prop it up on the G Plan sideboard where it slowly starts to turn yellow and curl, until it drops down the back and disappears out of sight for years.

These days, by the time you have come back from the XC phase of a one day event and sorted your horse out, you can wander over to exclaim horror, disbelief or joy, at your dressage score, and then pop into the photographer's stand where you can locate a folder full of images of your wonderful, or not so wonderful performance. There you can purchase a print straightaway or have a jpg emailed to you. However, you are not sure which ones to buy, or have spent all your cash on chips, and your card is back in the lorry, and OH is in a hurry to depart then no worries, the next day you will find the pro has uploaded all the images onto t'internet and you can peruse and chose the shots at your leisure and buy a selection of digital images for £5 each. OK you may find the watermarks still disguise the fact you are gurning, but no system is perfect! These are available to download within minutes and you can share them on all your social media sites and store them for posterity on your hard drive or on a cloud somewhere! I know which system I prefer!

 

[teapot]

Personally I feel that there should not be copyright on photos, they are hardly artistically planned but just a lucky capture of the moment.

Really?! Just a lucky capture? So it's purely sheer luck for a tog to capture all 500 odd competitors where in each photo the rider's eyes are open, the horse's ears are pricked, it's just the right moment mid air over a fence, or in the right moment of a walk/trot/canter/gallop stride to show the horse off at it's best, keeping all four legs, two ears, tail, nose, rider's head are all in the photo, all whilst making sure a rider's garish xc colours arn't too over or under exposed, someone hasn't just blocked the *insert stunning house in the background* of the photo whilst walking the course in a group, avoiding a car that's driving along the course, shadows in the right place, blue sky rather than murky cloud, completely in focus whilst a fly tries to land on your lens, no shaking despite freezing early Spring temperatures or rain drop marks as it pees it down for 8 hours.

Yeah, total and utter sheer luck. Every single time.

 

[Tnavas]

When the horse goes over the jump it goes over the jump - you take the picture! With modern cameras you barely have to consider if it is in focus - it's done for you. Obviously the shots of people after they have been presented with a prize have had more time taken.

I have some lovely photos I took with a 35mm camera years ago, then you did have to work at getting everything right.

Nowadays the show may have an official photographer and there are also 20 other unofficial wannabes also taking pics, putting them up on line, these are the people who are taking your business, not the customer who shows off there heavily watermarked picture with their friends.

Then you need to consider the financial aspect - the show was expensive enough and how many pictures can you really need of your horse jumping a fence? People just can't afford to constantly buy.

Some of the best pics of my horses are ones that have been snapped by a friend. At a recent show I booked the photographer to take pics of my horse, all her photos were poor, and the one a friend took with her phone was excellent. My mare is easy to photograph, I only have to call her name and her ears shoot forward, she also stands like a rock. Needless to say the photgrapher did herself no favours.

 

[Capriole]

Eloquent reply table dancer! Couldn't agree more.

Likewise.

 

[glamourpuss]

There are lots of points I want to respond to so shall put them all together rather than quoting lots of different posts!

To Mikedpe: As I said earlier, I think this type of thread is great and it is really good for photographers and riders to discuss the implications of copyright, plus what they each expect from each other. However, if you are a business you do have to think quite carefully how things are phrased so as not to alienate those who would otherwise support your arguments. The bit about viewing photos but not buying clearly touched a chord amongst readers here, and me personally, as I often view on the day but either don't buy at all, or buy online a couple of days later. Obviously, that wasn't what you intended, but people read what you say, rather than what you mean to say! A common problem on the internet, but particularly tricky for the business person trying to foster good relations. It's just a shame it detracted from your very valid points on all the other issues!

And I do remember that first thread that Spidge did about five years ago - very clearly because I remember contributing to it. At that point, being a keen amateur photographer, I would always take my own photos at competitions and would rarely buy from the pro, as prices were too high for me to justify, and often photos weren't available in jpg form. It has been heartening to see how Spidge and other photographers have taken onboard so many of those points, and event photography in our area has been transformed to the point that I don't often have to take my camera out with me now as can rely on buying low res jpgs cheaply (and I hate putting up warm up jumps with a DSLR slung round my neck or having to sprint to get to the best XC jump in time).

Which brings me to another point, which is Tnavas's assertion that there is no art in event photography! As I say I do photography as a hobby and can assure you that there is just as much skill involved in photographing horses in action as there is in composing a lovely landscape or portrait. You need a skilful eye to get that moment when the horse is in mid flight with all four feet off the ground, plus there is a knack knowing exactly where to stand and get the best angle, the best background, the best light etc. Not to mention quick thinking if one of your subjects takes the alternative route when you weren't expecting it! You could send six different people to the same jump, armed with the same kind of camera, and I could guarantee that you would get six very different shots, some of them not very good at all!

As for going back to the system in the olden days, I am ancient enough to remember it well! In those days you usually hacked to the local hunter trial, where you would find the course consisted of logs, hedges, post and rail fences, ditches and water - none of these fancy houses, aeroplanes or arrowheads that you get these days. A few weeks later you would get a hand addressed envelope containing postage stamp sized proofs of your photos. After squinting at them from several angles, you would take a gamble which was the best shot, fill in the paper form, write your cheque, put it in an envelope then walk to the local postbox and send it off. About a month later you would receive that distinctive brown hardbacked envelope which you open to find your print and discover that your flies are undone, you are gurning exquisitely and your steed has his eyes shut and his ears flat back! Not really worth framing, so you prop it up on the G Plan sideboard where it slowly starts to turn yellow and curl, until it drops down the back and disappears out of sight for years.

These days, by the time you have come back from the XC phase of a one day event and sorted your horse out, you can wander over to exclaim horror, disbelief or joy, at your dressage score, and then pop into the photographer's stand where you can locate a folder full of images of your wonderful, or not so wonderful performance. There you can purchase a print straightaway or have a jpg emailed to you. However, you are not sure which ones to buy, or have spent all your cash on chips, and your card is back in the lorry, and OH is in a hurry to depart then no worries, the next day you will find the pro has uploaded all the images onto t'internet and you can peruse and chose the shots at your leisure and buy a selection of digital images for £5 each. OK you may find the watermarks still disguise the fact you are gurning, but no system is perfect! These are available to download within minutes and you can share them on all your social media sites and store them for posterity on your hard drive or on a cloud somewhere! I know which system I prefer!

...But that lovely 2nd system isn't what's happening for a lot of competitors. My last BE event there was no option to view at the event, 5 days later the proofs went on the togs website. The cheapest print was £17, a low res JPEG £20. I was very disappointed. I called the photographer & asked if there was any movement on the JPEG price or if I could have one for a few quid more if I bought a print because I only wanted to share on FB/Twitter.
I was told a flat 'No'. I was very polite & said I'd that I'd seen other photographers offer this & I felt it would be desirable. I was told
'I don't care what other photographers do, they obviously have other jobs & can do this for fun but I have a living to earn'

Even though I didn't steal his proofs it was hard to feel sympathy for him when I did see his stolen images all through my news feed.

 

[TGM]

...But that lovely 2nd system isn't what's happening for a lot of competitors. My last BE event there was no option to view at the event, 5 days later the proofs went on the togs website. The cheapest print was £17, a low res JPEG £20. I was very disappointed. I called the photographer & asked if there was any movement on the JPEG price or if I could have one for a few quid more if I bought a print because I only wanted to share on FB/Twitter.
I was told a flat 'No'. I was very polite & said I'd that I'd seen other photographers offer this & I felt it would be desirable. I was told
'I don't care what other photographers do, they obviously have other jobs & can do this for fun but I have a living to earn'

Even though I didn't steal his proofs it was hard to feel sympathy for him when I did see his stolen images all through my news feed.

You need to move down our way, or perhaps Spidge needs to expand his empire into your area! I feel your pain, as we used to be in this situation down here, plus last year we travelled as far afield as Cheshire, Hull, Warwickshire & Lincoln to compete, and discovered that a lot of photographers are still stuck in the dark ages! Made us realise that we are very lucky around here. It is obvious that there are both bad photographers and bad customers, and both are responsible for creating bad feeling between riders and pro togs.

Would be lovely if some of your local photographers took inspiration for creating a new business model from this thread, just as it would be great if some riders became more conscientious about respecting copyright after reading it.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Tnavas you have left me shocked but maybe not surprised. But may I issue a challenge? If modern cameras require no skill please at the next event we are both at (presuming you are in the uk?) hopefully when it is cold dark wet and miserable (to make it a proper challenge) that you take photos of 10 consecutive horses and then I will of the next and see if you can produce the same results if you can I will eat my words!

As for the bad photographer you apparently hired just because a pro is a pro doesn't mean they are any good but a talented equine event photographer uses a lot of skill and talent to choose the right angle and location in addition to many other settings on the cameras. Actually my camera doesn't have an auto setting so maybe that would be unfair to ask you to use

As for the rest of the discussion there are very valid points from photographers and riders alike. My position is that I want to educate riders being one myself not victimise people. If people are educated they tend to become new clients which is a win win situation for all involved.

And Spidge bravo a good photographer and a good businessman!

 

[glamourpuss]

TGM you've hit the nail on the head it is absolutely about having respect for each other! The business & sport are pretty intertwined us riders WANT nice pictures to show off to our friends & the photographers NEED us to buy images to earn a living....so we absolutely have to listen to & respect each other.
I was so annoyed at that event photographer's attitude I've vowed to 1) turn a blind eye to anyone who is stealing proofs from him (I have previously commented on other stolen images something like 'nice pic would look much nicer without the watermark, have you seen you can get a legit one for £xx on the website?' Or even ' hey you want to be careful posting this, I've heard photographers are going after people who share images that haven't been paid for'

2) To ask the event organiser if they would consider using a different photographer.

Anyway this has been a very interesting discussion. I too wish Spidge & some of the other Togs who have obviously listened to their customers did more events in my region. Hey Ho

 

[mikedpe]

...But that lovely 2nd system isn't what's happening for a lot of competitors. My last BE event there was no option to view at the event, 5 days later the proofs went on the togs website. The cheapest print was £17, a low res JPEG £20. I was very disappointed. I called the photographer & asked if there was any movement on the JPEG price or if I could have one for a few quid more if I bought a print because I only wanted to share on FB/Twitter.

You could always contact the organisers with your concerns, most of the photographers I know do not operate in that manner.

Mike

 

[Twizzel]

When the horse goes over the jump it goes over the jump - you take the picture! With modern cameras you barely have to consider if it is in focus - it's done for you. Obviously the shots of people after they have been presented with a prize have had more time taken.

I have some lovely photos I took with a 35mm camera years ago, then you did have to work at getting everything right.

Nowadays the show may have an official photographer and there are also 20 other unofficial wannabes also taking pics, putting them up on line, these are the people who are taking your business, not the customer who shows off there heavily watermarked picture with their friends.

You're right there are 2 issues with official event photography- one of which is what we have highlighted here and no matter how many times you say it doesn't affect our income, people lifting watermarked images from our websites does affect income. As I said before many of the people I catch with watermarked images will go on to buy those images from me when picked up on it. The 2nd issue is the unofficial togs who haven't paid to be at an event, probably don't have insurance but still put their pics online for all and sundry to use. Both of these issues take our business, both are issues that need to be tackled- one quick word to the event organiser about the 2nd normally sees that one sorted however the watermarked image issue is about educating the rider about copyright.

Santa claus has taken the words out of my mouth r.e. just taking a picture as the horse goes over the jump- I too invite you to come and stand in a showjumping ring or out on the xc course and photograph a dozen people consecutively without fault! My camera has no auto settings, so I have to change settings according to the light which can change dramatically throughout the course of an hour let alone a whole day. My camera does not do all of the hard work for me, if I have it on the wrong setting it will show in the photos.

Glamourpuss that is a shame about your photographer at the event- I too would echo Mike and put your thoughts into writing to the event organiser. A lot of photographers are still in the dark ages with regards to printing on site and pricing and as said above would learn a lot from this thread and similar ones. Photographers have a bad name for thinking they are the be all and end all and their pricing/products/business plans are perfect but in reality we can all find areas to improve on to help ourselves and the riders alike.

 

[spidge]

My ears are burning , been out again and I have come back to read some very nice things said about my business, workflow and our customer service. Thank you. I have just been booked for 4 BE events next year precisely because the incumbent photographer is in the eyes of the organiser refusing to embrace what their customers/competitors want. Remember the BE event has a a tipping point of competitors which determines their profitability. If the event receives negative feedback amongst the riding fraternity because of x, y, or z, it will affect entries. I would never suggest for a minute that the photographer is the decisive factor for the rider to choose event a over event b but it can be a small part of the decision making process.

It is important to remember that event organisers are also competitors. In the last few weeks I have had 2 competitors walk up to me on my stand and introduce themselves, hi I am so and so, we have booked you for our event at wherever. They have experienced as a customer precisely what their customers will experience. Reassuringly both despite being very experienced riders have gone on to purchase pictures and offer positive feedback on our total package. So the impact on my business is I am busier, more profitable and more in demand with quality bookings. Am I smiling... you need to ask?

 

[Firewell]

Whenever I buy a photo I always ask if I can purchase a low res image for FB/HHO as well. It's normally only a couple of quid! I haven't had a photographer give me one for free with a print that would be lovely!
What pee's me off is paying for a photo then it not being sent to me grrrrrrr! To be fair that has only happened once in the UK. Here in Cali they are so laid back it takes ages to get anything and I have to say its been seriously tempting to steal the friggin image I have paid for but not recieved but as of yet I am being good and holding back. (Can anyone tell I am still waiting for a photo from 5 weeks ago!).
Anyway I digress. I am lucky in England my Dad is a trained photographer and he came with his fancy camera and took beautiful shots for free yippeee! Here in Cali my friend has a super camera and has taken some lovely shots also. My next birthday present a new camera for me is def on the cards, my husband will have to get lots of practice getting the legs in the right position .
I digress.
I think the problem with FB is the moment a picture is posted, stolen or not it then belongs to FB. Anyone can get hold of it. That is the scary thing!

 

[siennamiller]

Tnavas, you may be good at photography, but I jumped at an event recently where the official photographer was pretty rubbish, most of the pics had caught exactly the wrong moment, and showed very unflattering pics( not just of me), the communication was poor, the service slow (almost a week for pics to show on website), I ordered a pic online at the beginning of March. Have just had to open a paypal dispute to get my money back.

Fast forward a few week to felbridge, pics are amazing, 3 or 4 screens available to look at pics, they offer a free email pic if you buy one (pics can be printed out on the day), and the email pic was with me by the time I had loaded the horse up.
Not anyone can take good pics, it takes skill. They have expensive equipment etc....

 

[spidge]

Not wishing to inflame a war here but Tim who runs Felbridge Photography worked for us for three years whilst we trained him from competent enthusiast to decent equestrian photographer. Is it a coincidence their workflow, pricing etc is similar to ours. I think not.