Could you condition score this horse for me please? The RSPCA...

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ozpoz said:
I may be in the minority here, but if I had a "cared for" oldie who couldn't get through winter without becoming emaciated, I hope I would have had the foresight to save it from misery and pts before it got to this stage.
Unnaceptable.
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So ospoz - what if they are in this condition but are contented, eating well and pottering about and not in misery? At that age even thought they are eating well, they do not put weight on so they are wearing a rug to conserve body heat.
 
Caledonia said:
Completely stunned at those that find this acceptable under ANY circumstances.

This horse is either ill, unable to eat properly, or being starved. None of those are acceptable.

He/she will be weak, with a low immune system, and will desperately feel the cold.

This should be classed as neglect.
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Am with you on this, no excuse, this horse is in appalling condition, my oldie who was pts earlier this year NEVER ever looked like this one does, despite having very few teeth!
 
Definitely emaciated! But the question is what's the cause? Illness? Neglect?

I'm no pro by any means but I'd score a 1. Hip bones are visible, as are ribs etc...

Please please don't leave this animal any longer to be helped :(
 
undertheweather said:
Oh sorry, I forgot to mention that it was my mum's friend's daughter's friend's sister's auntie's bank manager's wife was the one that spotted this horse and left it to her sister's husband's... You get my drift. :rolleyes:

A friend is the one who discovered what poor condition this horse is in. They are not members of this forum. This is not gossip/rumours, this is real life. A real horse who is in an awful state.

Hay has been put in the field tonight after the RSPCA visit. I meant to mention earlier that it was of the opinion of the RSPCA inspector that the horse was not in need of veterinary attention also.

I am frankly quite shocked, FionaM12, by your vendetta against me when this is NOT a court room and I am not obligated to give you any more details than I wish. As for my profile showing I was online and reading this thread, I have no idea why that appeared to be so, but I can assure you that I was sat in a cinema watching a film. It saddens me to think that you are hardened to the image of an emaciated horse and would condone emaciation if it were for a medical reason. I invite you to read this information on emaciation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emaciation#Characteristics so that you can be further educated about the psychological and physiological effects of emaciation. It is NOT just an outward appearance.
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Massive over-reaction. :p Vendetta? Please. :D Not quite sure why you single me out, lots of others asked for more details, but I'll leave the thread now and leave you to it. :rolleyes:
 
muff747 said:
So ospoz - what if they are in this condition but are contented, eating well and pottering about and not in misery? At that age even thought they are eating well, they do not put weight on so they are wearing a rug to conserve body heat.
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Emaciation causes damage inside the horse too, sometime irreparable damage.

From the wiki Emaciation page:

"
The underlying starvation, malnourishment, and usually dehydration, associated with emaciation, affect and are harmful to organ systems throughout the body. The emaciated individual experiences disturbances of the blood, circulatory, and urinary systems; these include hyponatremia and/or hypokalemia (low sodium and/or potassium in the blood, respectively), anemia (low hemoglobin), improper function of lymph (immune system-related white blood matter) and the lymphatic system, and pleurisy (fluid in the pleural cavity surrounding the lungs) and edema (swelling in general) caused by poor or improper function of the kidneys to eliminate wastes from the blood.[3]"


It would be fair to say that this horse is emaciated, would it not?
 
My dad lost a lot of weight when he got older, he was skinny but ate well and was reasonably contented, why can't horses be contented when they are elderly and have lost weight. Surely there's no harm if they are being well cared for and they are happy - I wouldn't put my horse down just because he didn't look muscled up and in good condition.
 
Personally I think there is no excuse for any horse to look like this at any time. This horse isn't thin, it's emaciated. Having rehabilitated a TB who was in a similar state on arrival to me, this isn't a horse who has lost a little condition or that owners can use 'elderly' as an excuse. Good luck OP and your friend on helping this horse :)
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm seriously shocked at how closed minded some people can be.

OP a few questions:

1: How old is the horse?
2: How long has the owner had the horse? What condition was it in when they got it if recently?
3: Has it had any recent illnesses or severe injury etc?
4: Is it under any vet or treatment for the above?
5: What advice has the owner been given by the vet? Are they following that advice?
6: Why only post an 'above' photo of this horse? Where are the photos from the side and back? You cannot make any assessment with the one photo you have posted - as yes, quite frankly it could be a severe drop in topline condition and sunken back on an extremely old horse which is coming to the end of it's days.
7: What EXACT conversation took place between the inspector and the owner? Were you there? Did you hear first hand?

If you can come back and tell us the EXACT answer to all of those, without any hearsay nonsense, or opinion of you or Joe Bloggs down the road thrown in, then you may have a point to make.
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Oh FGS!

How can you possibly think that this is acceptable??????

Read the damn post - the horse has been in the field since EARLY summer, it has continually been rugged, presumably to hide it's disgusting condition.

Pictures from the side and back would make not one iota of difference - the horse is emaciated, any fool (excepting the RSPCA ones) can see that.

It is irrelevant how old this horse is.

I am actually so disgusted that you are defending them that I am going to have to stop typing!
 
muff747 said:
My dad lost a lot of weight when he got older, he was skinny but ate well and was reasonably contented, why can't horses be contented when they are elderly and have lost weight. Surely there's no harm if they are being well cared for and they are happy - I wouldn't put my horse down just because he didn't look muscled up and in good condition.
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Sorry, I think it's delusional to describe that picture as 'not muscled up'.
I could not bear to let any old horse of mine get to that point. They all deserve better.
 
OP you still do not give enough accurate info I'm afraid.

I am not for one minute saying you may not be right. I am however saying you may be very wrong also in your assumptions.

Just because the officer may have said 'they don't feel it needs to see a vet', may well mean that it has already seen one recently? Just a thought. People can quite often take things very out of context, particularly where emotional subjects are involved.

I am curious as to why you have only posted that above pic though. Could you possibly post some side and rear pics too?:)
 
muff747 said:
My dad lost a lot of weight when he got older, he was skinny but ate well and was reasonably contented, why can't horses be contented when they are elderly and have lost weight. Surely there's no harm if they are being well cared for and they are happy - I wouldn't put my horse down just because he didn't look muscled up and in good condition.
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If you scroll down to the bottom of this webpage:
http://prisonphotography.org/tag/prisoners-of-war/

This, is what I personally believe to be the human equivalent of the lowest score on a horse body conditioning scale.

Emaciation can cause organ failure. A human can say when they are not feeling too great, a horse can't.
 
Amaranta said:
Oh FGS!

How can you possibly think that this is acceptable??????

Read the damn post - the horse has been in the field since EARLY summer, it has continually been rugged, presumably to hide it's disgusting condition.

Pictures from the side and back would make not one iota of difference - the horse is emaciated, any fool (excepting the RSPCA ones) can see that.

It is irrelevant how old this horse is.

I am actually so disgusted that you are defending them that I am going to have to stop typing!
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I am in no way defending them. I am saying that nobody should jump to conclusions without the above facts.

Read the post. OP says the horse HAS not been seen in the condition since the summer, merely that it has had the rug on since then.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FionaM12 View Post
Where does it say it had been this thin since the summer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by undertheweather View Post
In my second post on this thread, to which you replied that I would "do much better taking time to read replies".

I guess it would be a little cruel to accuse you of hypocrisy right now....
Quote:
Originally Posted by undertheweather View Post
I hasten to add that I did not say that the horse was thin since summer,


FionaM12 said:
:confused:
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Why only half quote the final bit??? OP clearly stated that the horse had been covered by the same rug, it is currently tied into since the summer!

Why not leave the thread if you really think the horse is in such good shape.:rolleyes:
 
I can't believe that more people aren't shocked by the picture, and that some actually think its ok.

The double standards on this forum are incredible sometimes.

Moomin do you work for the RSPCA? I have a sneaking suspicion that you may...
 
ozpoz said:
I may be in the minority here, but if I had a "cared for" oldie who couldn't get through winter without becoming emaciated, I hope I would have had the foresight to save it from misery and pts before it got to this stage.
Unnaceptable.
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Well I would never let my oldie look like that but opinions do vary about when is the the right time to PTS.
It's extremely hard to make a true judgement on the information given .
If the horse was being apporiatly fed had a vet who was aware of its condition , had had its teeth checked etc etc who are we to say it must be PTS these things are not set in stone owners views differ on the PTS issue.
You really need to see a horse moving to get a true picture a very thin spritly horse moving around happily is a much less cause for worry than a lethargic one who unwilling to move.
TBH I would not and could not make a considered judgement on the basis of that picture.
 
Moomin1 said:
I am in no way defending them. I am saying that nobody should jump to conclusions without the above facts.

Read the post. OP says the horse HAS not been seen in the condition since the summer, merely that it has had the rug on since then.
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And just ask yourself WHY has it had the rug (tied on with baler twine) on ALL through the summer? Which, btw would indicate that ownership has been for some time.
 
Why has your friend only just removed the rug after 6 months during which she knew the rug had never been taken off ?

Why did she not take action before the horse dropped weight ?

Why blame the RSPCA when it took her so long to check under the rug and finally put hay out ?

If the owners haven't been caring for the horse adequately, why did your friend turn a blind eye for so long ?

Why blame the RSPCA when horse lovers see the horse regularly and yet turn a blind eye for day after day,after day, after endless day ?

Perhaps the indignation is misplaced and should be placed nearer home.
 
piebaldsparkle said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FionaM12 View Post
Where does it say it had been this thin since the summer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by undertheweather View Post
In my second post on this thread, to which you replied that I would "do much better taking time to read replies".

I guess it would be a little cruel to accuse you of hypocrisy right now....
Quote:
Originally Posted by undertheweather View Post
I hasten to add that I did not say that the horse was thin since summer,




Why only half quote the final bit??? OP clearly stated that the horse had been covered by the same rug, it is currently tied into since the summer!

Why not leave the thread if you really think the horse is in such good shape.:rolleyes:
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I've just come back to defend myself.

Please, I have said the horse was very, very thin but we needed more facts. I've said it could be a very severe welfare case. Please read my posts.

I quoted the relevant bit. Common practice here

I merely asked where it says the horse had been this thin since summer. It doesn't say that, it says it's been rugged since summer. So I was right, which the OP later said herself. Hence confusion.
 
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Patterdale said:
I can't believe that more people aren't shocked by the picture, and that some actually think its ok.

The double standards on this forum are incredible sometimes.

Moomin do you work for the RSPCA? I have a sneaking suspicion that you may...
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No Patterdale, I do not work for the RSPCA. I know people that have done in the past though and know a lot of the work they do.

Where, on this thread, pray tell, have I once suggested that the condition of this horse is ok?!!! Quote it please. Or have I merely suggested over and over again, that MAYBE the horse is under veterinary treatment for a condition, in which case it is not a 'neglect case' necessarily is it? I cannot understand why people can't grasp that concept, seriously.

If some poor soul's horse became very ill, for instance, grass sickness as mentioned earlier (and no, I am not suggesting that this is the cause of this, though who knows) and became that thin, yet they were having all the care in the world from the owner and top vets and thousands of pounds worth of treatment to get it right again, would that be a welfare/neglect case?

I am not for one second saying that this case is or isn't, because I don't know. Just like the rest of us on here.
 
Amaranta said:
And just ask yourself WHY has it had the rug (tied on with baler twine) on ALL through the summer? Which, btw would indicate that ownership has been for some time.
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Errm, because plenty of horses have had rugs on all summer due to the rain?!

Do you not know any horses with rainsheets on during summer? Maybe it could simply be for those reasons.

Who knows, maybe it was to hide it's poor condition, and maybe it is a welfare case.

You are missing the point I am making. I am purely saying that people really shouldn't jump to automatic conclusions based on very little knowledge or fact. One picture and one person's say so on a public forum is not undeniable proof.
 
horserider said:
Why has your friend only just removed the rug after 6 months during which she knew the rug had never been taken off ?

Why did she not take action before the horse dropped weight ?

Why blame the RSPCA when it took her so long to check under the rug and finally put hay out ?

If the owners haven't been caring for the horse adequately, why did your friend turn a blind eye for so long ?

Why blame the RSPCA when horse lovers see the horse regularly and yet turn a blind eye for day after day,after day, after endless day ?

Perhaps the indignation is misplaced and should be placed nearer home.
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Whilst I agree with some of your points, the fact is that the RSPCA have now seen the horse and deemed it's condition to be fine, that is the point, it shows just what a chocolate teapot the whole organisation is.

Just compare the condition of this horse to the condition of the horses shown on last night's Channel 4 documentary - there is no comparison and yet they acted (inappropriately imho) very quickly, probably because there were cameras involved.

I think rather than call the RSPCA it would have been better to contact the BHS, at least then the poor animal would have been seen by someone who actually knows something about how a horse (of whatever age) should look!
 
Moomin1 said:
Errm, because plenty of horses have had rugs on all summer due to the rain?!

Do you not know any horses with rainsheets on during summer? Maybe it could simply be for those reasons.

Who knows, maybe it was to hide it's poor condition, and maybe it is a welfare case.

You are missing the point I am making. I am purely saying that people really shouldn't jump to automatic conclusions based on very little knowledge or fact. One picture and one person's say so on a public forum is not undeniable proof.
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OK explain why it was the SAME rug regardless of temperature?

And I do get your point, I would take it more seriously if I had not seen you defend them a little too vigorously in the past, you appear to be blinkered regarding the RSPCA so I assume you yourself work for them in some capacity.
 
Amaranta said:
Whilst I agree with some of your points, the fact is that the RSPCA have now seen the horse and deemed it's condition to be fine, that is the point, it shows just what a chocolate teapot the whole organisation is.

Just compare the condition of this horse to the condition of the horses shown on last night's Channel 4 documentary - there is no comparison and yet they acted (inappropriately imho) very quickly, probably because there were cameras involved.

I think rather than call the RSPCA it would have been better to contact the BHS, at least then the poor animal would have been seen by someone who actually knows something about how a horse (of whatever age) should look!
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^^^ Yes
 
horserider said:
Why has your friend only just removed the rug after 6 months during which she knew the rug had never been taken off ?
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Whooooa

Where has it stated the rug has NEVER been taken off? It say the horse has been wearing the same rug since the summer.:rolleyes:

horserider said:
Why did she not take action before the horse dropped weight ?
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We don't ALL have crystal ball!:rolleyes:

horserider said:
Why blame the RSPCA when it took her so long to check under the rug and finally put hay out ?
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OK you check under the rug of EVERY horse you see do you?:rolleyes: The Hay was put out after the visit I believe (though can't be arse to read back and double check).

horserider said:
If the owners haven't been caring for the horse adequately, why did your friend turn a blind eye for so long ?
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How would she know this, until the animal visibly looked poorer (without the benefit of your crystal ball that is).:rolleyes:

horserider said:
Why blame the RSPCA when horse lovers see the horse regularly and yet turn a blind eye for day after day,after day, after endless day ?
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Because the RSPCA have reported the animal just has muscle wastage from being old and seem to think a big belly is a sign of its well being......:eek:


horserider said:
Perhaps the indignation is misplaced and should be placed nearer home.
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Perhaps you should read and comprehend before spouting off.;)
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm seriously shocked at how closed minded some people can be.

OP a few questions:

1: How old is the horse?
We don't know the age, but I sleep soundly in my bed at night knowing that this kind of emaciation is not right in any age horse.

2: How long has the owner had the horse? What condition was it in when they got it if recently?
The horse has been in the field since the beginning of the summer. Condition unknown as the rug has not been removed at all.

3: Has it had any recent illnesses or severe injury etc?
No.

4: Is it under any vet or treatment for the above?
Not that we are aware. Rug would have had to be removed for that surely?

5: What advice has the owner been given by the vet? Are they following that advice?
We do not know who the owner is. They have been seen once or twice through the year. The field is rented.

6: Why only post an 'above' photo of this horse? Where are the photos from the side and back? You cannot make any assessment with the one photo you have posted - as yes, quite frankly it could be a severe drop in topline condition and sunken back on an extremely old horse which is coming to the end of it's days.
An above photo is all that I have at the moment. If it is indeed a horse with a "severe drop in topline condition and sunken back on an extremely old horse which is coming to the end of it's days" then surely it is a welfare case that it is stood, emaciated, in a mud patch with nothing to eat and just before a cold snap in an inadequate rug?? If you say otherwise you shouldn't own a horse.

7: What EXACT conversation took place between the inspector and the owner? Were you there? Did you hear first hand?

*sigh* If I posted a link to a newspaper article about this (Some press have been alerted already) you wouldn't complain of secondhand sources. My information comes from a firsthand source and a friend, one who has tried to deal with this quietly and correctly over the past two weeks, and one who is very upset and desperate for something to be done for this horse before the next cold snap.

If you can come back and tell us the EXACT answer to all of those, without any hearsay nonsense, or opinion of you or Joe Bloggs down the road thrown in, then you may have a point to make.
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Please see my above comments in red. To be quite frank I find it hard to believe that people seem to think that it is unacceptable to go about reporting a horse to relevant welfare authorities and when their actions are unacceptable to you striving to get everything possible done for this horse.
 
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