Court case - collecting pony update

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Patches

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Remember the post from Tuesday about losing the case at the small claims court because the pony won't hack alone?

Well.... we collected her today and what an obstructive pair the woman and her friend were.

She wouldn't let us up the drive to the yard. Told us we weren't invited it was trespass! How pathetic is that? Surely a court judgement to collect the pony is an invitation! It was a very narrow lane and there was no way you could've loaded her (although we weren't loading her) on that road.

She led the pony to us and then brought the tack and rugs on the road. She had a moan at us because we'd said in court we were collecting her with a trailer. Judge didn't tell us we had to collect her in a trailer, he just said we had to take her back at 11am on 23rd August.

All got a bit confuddled as we were really thrown at being told we had to tack her up on the roadside. Tacked up, she was walking in circles. Let's face it, alot of horses would if they weren't restrained. They were videoing us...I was videoing too.

My friend got on and hacked up the lane and you would not believe this pony hadn't been ridden for 6 months. She walked calmly, no neighing and no jogging. Lots of traffic passed us, including a large van and a tractor. The pony was calmer than I've ever seen her. Took her 20 minutes to hack to the new yard.

Feet were atrocious. Very flat footed and very wide. As soon as she stepped on to the stony driveway at the new yard, she was hopping. So foot sore. My friend has to pay damages to include a farrier's fees too for a pony that clearly hasn't been seen to every 6 weeks.

Untacked her and put her in a field. She had no other equine company at this field, although horses were in a neighbours fields. She settled instantly. The woman had stated in court that this is a mad pony who attacks people and doesn't settle on her own.

I have a video I'll get uploaded and show you a snippet of it. No way on this earth is that a video of a dangerous pony who doesn't hack alone. We proved that today.
In all the confusion though, we forgot to ask for the passport, assuming it would be with the tack/rubs in the bin liners. She's with held it. Says my friend can't have it until damages have been paid. (we only had to pay the initial purchase price for the pony today). Have called Trading Standards, the court and DEFRA. No one is interested that she's let the horse go with no passport as it's a civil case.

My friend is still on the passport as the owner, as she called the issuing office. They're going to write to the woman demanding she surrenders it within a set time frame. If that doesn't happen, they'll issue a replacement anyway. Can't understand why this woman therefore saw it was a bargaining chip to keep hold of it.
 
i feel so sorry and shocked for your friend. i was thinking about this all last night, and wondering how to word ads in case i ever dare to sell a horse again!
 
What a shame it went to court. Quite frankly the pony sounds better off back with your friend.

Patches - I have to say that even on principle I would be appealing this. If this pony is as genuine as you believe it to be - and has been treated in a less than fair way - how can this outcome be fair.

Having said that have you read page 6 of H&H regarding the woman awarded damages for being kicked whilst leading a pony throught a field????

The mind boggles!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a palava........
 
I would strongly reccomened that you go back to court if you have the video of the whole ordeal with the horse - this is a total joke that this stupid woman has put this pony through this ordeal - I hope she never buys a horse again. Or the next one she buys IS dodgy and it throws her off into the biggest pile of dog poo in the world.

The pony sounds better off out of there - I just cannot believe that the courts have give this claim the time of day - let alone rule in favour of the claimant.
 
I can't help but wonder if the ruling of such court cases is heavily influenced by whether the judge has experience with horses. Some of the non-horsey people I know definitely think horses are more like machines; never unpredictable and not capable of emotions that would make settling in a new home difficult - they don't even understand that they all have individual personalities.

It just doesn't make sense for judges who have no knowledge of horses to have the power to make such decisions.

If your friend can appeal, I'd imagine the video would be powerful evidence, especially if the judge doesn't understand horses - they will just see one doing as it should, with no problems.
 
The otherday - someone asked if she could borrow my pony to hack out while her friend rode hers, I said no way - I just wont let people ride mine anymore - I am not having my third party insurance dinted - the whole equestrian industry has been ruined by the blame culture - no one will take responsibilty for anything anymore! My livery yard is also a Riding school and you would not believe some of the things parents go mad at - little girl fell off the otherday (at trot) pony just stood there - kid screaming - parents yelling 'this place is going down, you are going down - we will make sure you shut down after this!!' Meanwhile - I use my most chavvy language to tell them to shut the f&ck up screaming and I will sue them for scaring my horse and feeding her mints even tho there is a sign on her door saying do not feed! They soon crawled off!

So sorry for your friend - really am.
 
Goodness; I had to go and search for the original post to see what was going on - oh my what an odd situation.

Seems unfair to me, but I guess people should take care in what they write in their adverts; best waiting till the people come and view to give them more info on the horse....having said that, it doesn't sound like your friend would have won regardless of what was written or said. The UK justice system really has gone to the dogs; however I don't understand why this even went to court? If the woman didn't get on with the pony, why didn't your friend just take it back? Sorry if I am being dense and have missed something crucial here.
 
i think the friends relative had just died when the new owners rang and she couldnt deal with it there and then, next thing was in court
 
The woman initially called my friend up to tell her the pony wasn't settled after about 36 hours. My friend asked her to give the pony a chance to settle into the new environment, which the woman seemed happy to do so.

Next time my friend was contacted was a few hours after her father had sadly passed away suddenly. She wasn't in the frame of mind to talk to the lady full stop and basically told her she had more things to on her mind than the pony at that point in time....can't blame her having those emotions really can you?

After that it seemed to go out of her hands as court papers arrived and things roller coasted from there.
 
I read the original post but didn't have time to comment - your poor friend, although agree with others - sounds like the pony is in the better place now!

Does Caveat Emptor mean nothing theses days? Genuine question - just in my day you worked at it till you had resolved issue, got help if required and if really stuck sold the animal to someone who could cope with it!?
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The judge said caveat emptor was superseded if a horse was misrepresented in the sales advert.

Sales advert said "hacks alone or in company". New owner said the horse didn't hack alone. She was required to provide no proof of this in the terms of a video of someone trying to ride her out and her napping etc. Judge just took her word that the pony doesn't hack out.

She really didn't want us to ride her away from there today. Now we know why. Pony didn't put a hoof wrong and hacked perfectly...my friend even dropped the reins at one point and the pony just carried on meandering along the lanes.

I'll upload a snippet of the video this evening when Duncan's sorted it out on the computer.
 
surely if you filmed some of her hacking home ALONE... you have solid eveidence to appeal? some people can be so backward and twisted
 
Yup. Videoed her from yard to yard, about 20 minutes. She didn't put one foot wrong at any time and was passed by vans, transits and a tractor as well as many, many cars.
 
I'm not blaming her for anything - I was merely asking a question and trying to understand why she didn't just go and collect the pony.
 
Does all sound very miserable and I don't suppose it helps to say I see this all the time. Some people are just awkward and determined to be litigious no matter what and no amount of trying to be reasonable will help - they want their "day in court" and to make someone's else's life a misery. I often think they must wear themselves out being so uptight about everything and turning every little problem into a complete disaster/drama that "someone has to pay for".They believe that everyone in the world is out to "do" them. Like we have the time to be bothered. They are the sort of people who are just never happy, whatever. If they went on holiday to the Sahara they'd try and sue the holiday company for the sun being too hot. I had one client whose first words to me on the phone were always "It's Mrs X here and I'm not happy". I did begin to wonder whether she was just informing me that it was a genetic condition with her, but we have to be polite!

A friend of mine recently had an article in the Farmer's Guardian where he put forward the idea of having a sort of Equine Tribunal to deal with equine cases. It is true that many judges do not know and do not want to know about horses. In law, they are actually goods, just like a washing machine or a car and judges treat them as such.

The trouble with a lot of horse cases is that they involve relatively small sums so end up in the Small Claims Track where no legal costs are awarded, so it is difficult to get legal representation, or if you do pay, you end up paying your solicitor more than the claim is worth. Expert evidence is as essential in the small value cases as the high value, but of course, it costs. I obviously don't know the full ins and outs of the case, but someone did ask whether your friend took advice or was represented.

I think probably the pony is best away from the buyers. If you did appeal and won, what would you do? Give the pony back again?
 
Didn't think you were blaming her
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If the set of circumstances had been different then maybe it wouldn't have come to a court case, who knows? It was just a domino effect of circumstances that lead to the case going to court.
 
Well I think that the pony is probably better off where he is and away from those silly people. I personally wouldn't bother with an appeal, I'd just get on with finding a more suitable home for the pony and paying off whatever the court has ordered. Shame; I still think the UK law is an ass.....
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I would want to name the buyer and ensure the maximum adverse publicity without any kind of misrepresentation or slander - her name would still be mud in the equine community and these things are so much more important to most people.
 
LOL no, of course she wouldn't give the pony back.
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She just disputes the damages and costs that she's being asked to pay. Appealing will cost more than the damages I'm sure, but it's a matter of principle now. My friend has taken it very personally as her integrity and credibility as the seller of the pony has been questioned. I can totally understand why she feels a desire to be legally vindicated of any wrong doing....even though it is only a civil case. The horsey world is very small, and it's not nice to think she could be being bad mouthed by this woman to people she may know in the third party.
 
So there you have it, in black and white, solid eveidence, she DOES HACK ALONE and she ISN'T BONKERS WHEN LEFT so, you could appeal, but would that mean that the pony ends up going back to the bum hole of a woman who doesn't look after its feet and hates its guts, or more suitably, would your friend just get all expenses and a bit more, back....
 
Can she appeal, just to have the expenses dropped and of course, vindicate herself? I wouldn't dream of handing the pony back to the those people.
 
My friend just doesn't want to have to pay the damages and court costs...and much more than that, she doesn't want to be seen as the liar and the other woman the victim.

Of course, pony wouldn't be going back at all. No way.
 
I am sorry but what a crock of crap!
I thought people were insane here for what they get in judgements!

I can somewhat understand
the return and repayment of seeling price, but the rest is ridiculous!

I hate to say this , but although she does have good reason to appeal and now appears to have some evidence, I would just forget it. It may be a nightmare of a mess that may not go in her favor. Save the time and effort and chalk it up to a learning experience in how disgusting people can be.

Next time be sure to get a signed sale agreement when the purchase goes through stating that although you know of no known vices or negative health conditions , horse is being sold as is . A potential buyer has a period to try a horse before paying and THAT should be how they decide if the horse is what they want to buy. If the horse turns out differently in their care it must be the new owners fault and in turn THEIR problem imo
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Your friend is feeling exactly like 99% of people in this situation and taking it personally. We have a saying "Never litigate on principles" (leaving aside the need to litigate on legal principles which need to be tested to clarify the law - am I pedantic or what?). The people who know your friend will understand, the people who don't know her don't matter anyway. There may be mutterings, yes, and you can guarantee that the facts will be totally different by the time any mutterings reach the ninth person - the pony will have killed 3 people by rearing on the yard refusing to go out, as it hits the ground again it will have squashed 3 cute kittens, 2 puppies and a baby and then it will have bolted faster than a Derby winner to get back into it's field to join it's companions by jumping a 6 foot high gate topped with barbed wire, that sort of thing - but it will die a death. The Claimant will no doubt be crowing, but you have to rise above it.

You didn't say whether she was advised or represented. I agree with the comment that it's like a roller coaster and then suddenly you're in Court. Once you're there, it's in the lap of the gods in the form of the judges, who can be unpredictable, so I do try and keep out of there if poss. We used to regularly appear before one judge who always ended by saying in a rather jolly fashion "Well, that's my judgment, but you can always appeal it!" As we frequently had to.

If she is paying the damages, has she offered to pay in instalments if there's not much money around?
 
If the feet are so bad you could report the lady to the ILPH for neglect for not getting the feet done, but then thats getting into the whole tit of tat area.

At least we all know that lady was a numpty and that your friend isn't a liar, and just remember how many of us there are on here
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.

Plus if you post your vid no doubt we might see numpty lady, so we can all steer clear if she ever comes to buy a pony from us.
 
I just CANNOT believe this.
The other end of the scale..........
When I was 9 my parents were looking for a second pony for me. We bought a 9y.o. 14.1 push button pony. Tried him out thoroughly in a number of circumstances and couldn't fault him. Perfect to ride and handle.
Got him home and turned him out in a small paddock, went to get him in a few hours later to groom him and generally get to know him a little. Couldn't catch him initially and then went completely loop the loop in the stable when we did get him in. Couldn't handle his legs at all or get anywhere near his head. Turned him back out and gave him more time to settle.
The next day went to try and get him in, and again he was difficult to catch. My mum was trying to catch him, and my sister (aged 5) had followed her intot he paddock... 'Otter' span and maliciously double batrrelled at Mum, catching her on the collar bone, but on the way down he caught my sister in the face and smashed her left cheekbone and very, very almost took her eye out. It was touch and go as to whether her eye could be saved. My sister spent 6 weeks in hospital following this.

It turned out that we'd bought the pony from a dealer who had been posing as a private seller. We'd viewed the pony at a 'private' yard, but she also had a large second yard where the rest of her horses were kept. Upon being requested to take the pony back (which was supposed to be on a 14day trial
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) she point blank refused to take it back, and then promptly disappeared.
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The police were involved and it went to court. Eventually she was forced to have the pony back and refund us the money we had paid for the pony, but she didn't have to pay any expenses or damages. We had to keep the pony with us for 3months while it went through the courts.

Despite numerous witnesses of the accident and the dealers history of selling unsuitable animals the judge nearly didn't back us up at all. Madness.
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This is just disgusting. I cannot believe the judge ruled against your friend. I work in local government as an enforcement officer and we have to prove a case beyond all reasonable doubt. I know the burden of proof in a civil case is only 'balance of probabilities', but for the plaintiff not have to provide any proof at all!!!

Morally I would suggest yout friend appeal, however in reality it would probaly cost so much in terms of money, time and stress. At least the pony is safe and well now.
 
The whole thing is a mockery. You have people like your friend who sold a genuine pony, only to get well and truly stitched up by the buyer. On the other hand, you have dealers like "our friend" in Doncaster who keeps popping up in a variety of guises still selling dodgey horses. Perhaps we could put the two of them together, now there's a thought - I think the buyer of your friend's pony would meet her match with "our friend"!
 
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