Creating 'flashy' dressage paces in the Medium/Advanced Horse?

[007Equestrian]

Hi all! I have an ISH (3/4 draught) gelding who is currently very established at medium level and has started competing this summer at advanced medium. I aspire to get to PSG however am starting to hit a road block with his paces. He can do grand prix angle half pass fairly easily, working pirouettes, all other lateral work is very established. However at a recent championship, despite him making zero mistakes in his medium test, we couldn't get higher than 6.5/7 for his movements. The judges comments were essentially that he lacks 'flair' in his paces. Think nice show hunter rather than Valegro!

We struggle with extensions in trot and canter as while he can canter on the spot and is working on piaffe half steps, he struggles to sit and push forwards. This translates to his paces, they lack that moment of suspension and lift that even very novice well bred warmbloods have naturally.

Are we stuck with what we've got? I thought working on collection would translate to more cadence however I'm feeling quite down about our recent results. Flashy movers who made multiple mistakes were 4%+ higher than our very correct but probably 'boring' test. I'm beginning to feel a bit 'stuck', and selling and buying a warmblood is not an option haha.

If anyone has any exercises to develop extensions and flashier paces in the more advanced horse (any posts I've found have been tailored more to the novice horse learning medium trots for example trotting out hacking) please share!

 

[milliepops]

Ha! Are you me?! Millie is the same. Knocking on the door of doing her first advanced but I'm viewing it totally from the point of getting experience for me, rather than scores for her. She went out and got a 72% at medium last week... and then the AM she did half an hour later attracted a comment saying correct but she needed more cadence in the paces. We had the same at our area festival earlier in the year.

She can do all the work well, she has activity, balance, collection, suppleness, push (mostly - I don't train extensions any more due to field injuries so they are a bit pot luck on the day but usually reliable). But she will never have that suspension... I'm choosing to ignore it. I also don't have the funds to buy a posh horse with the paces pre-installed, the one that's coming up behind Millie is a section D FGS

Getting good extensions is a different thing to getting the flash in the paces though I think... Certainly I can improve those by really concentrating on getting the hindlegs snapping UNDER rather than pushing out behind, playing with extending in shoulder in, eg. really helps to get the power where I need it. That and straightness, so not having one hindleg pushing away from the centre of gravity, general reactivity, starting from a good powerful uphill trot, pulling into the contact.. That stuff gets better just by practicing it more.

I feel that Kira will develop more expression despite her diminutive size because I *think* she will passage fairly easily, she has to learn to stay quick but she has a natural "hanging" trot that is not correct but it illustrates more talent/inclination to that kind of work.

 

[tristar]

probably get murdered for saying this, but, if its working at that level and not improving or showing pace development the training is wrong, as the paces improve at the level currently being worked on , that is the signal move on to the next stage.

the whole point of training is that the training improves the overall horse and its way of working including its paces.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I kind of agree and disagree with you tristar.

With mine who is at the med/adv med level, she has certainly improved with the work required at this level, particularly the canter, using simple and flying changes and the pirouette canter have made a huge difference to strengthening and stopping the 4 beat canter she was apt to slip into.

However she will always struggle with extensions, her breeding and confo mean the knees come up and she struggles with the concept of moving the shoulder and leg forward. With her we are still missing the lightbulb moment of sit and push forward, not up , it is slowly coming but I am not waiting at the lower levels until it does so we accept our 6's with pride .

I'm planning to really start working on her passage and half steps to see if this will get the penny to drop a little more, as although SI and the lateral work has made a big difference it hasn't got the whole message across yet. There is the other issue that it is the blind leading the blind and it could just be me that is rubbish at teaching her to lengthen, but baby horse is showing great potential for them so hopefully it's not just the rubbish rider with Topaz .

 

[milliepops]

Hmm I am also not sure I agree - some horse come out of the womb waving their legs around their ears and some have more workmanlike paces... training can surely improve the paces of the less naturally dazzling and personally I know it's training that has taken my horse from having a downhill unbalanced way of going, to being able to balance on the hindleg and be really rideable... and therefore develop the paces, but some are at a definite advantage right from the start, trained or no.

At this point in her life, nothing is going to give mine the 'air time' requested on my last sheet.

OP, I think you have 2 questions in your opening post, please correct me if I'm wrong.
The first - something I've only experienced in the last few weeks - judges basically asking for more 'enhanced' paces for want of a better word, the second - how to get reliable extensions.

The second should be do-able, without question. The first... I think genetics and conformation will always play a part.
Like how some horses are natural extenders and some are natural collecters... ( I have one of each, lol) Those who fall to the extremes of those ranges need a lot of help to develop the weaker elements, more so than a horse that is kind of average in both? Likewise, IMO, the workmanlike correct horse would take a lot of work to develop suspension, personally I've run out of time because my girl is too old now. But you can see it even at GP level, that some horses just naturally have that, and others don't...

 

[tristar]

i know where you are coming from Alex, its just i am looking at horses doing `super things` yet the brilliance is lacking and i`m trying to understand why.

i can only think its something to do with the training going faster than the horse, so the `super things` are done in a kind of performing seal mode.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Agree MP, two different issues. The judges love Topaz's activity and suspension in her paces, this is all her, all natural and has taken no training from me to achieve, we're still rubbish at extensions .

Though I kind of think both issues should be able to be taught/improved from teaching them to sit and push from the hind end?

I think sometimes we can all be guilty of sometimes teaching the horses the moves needed for a test rather than the using the movements as part of the training to improve the horse. I can see that teaching a horse with very grounded paces cadence would be very tricky though, as I'm struggling to get Topaz to understand the simple concept of lengthening, never mind change her whole way of moving...

I wouldn't say I've rushed Topaz to move her up the levels but just accepted we will score poorly in the areas she's not quite test ready for yet, but to the outside it could well look like I'm missing steps of our training. The other side of this is the difference between at home Topaz and at shows Topaz, she has to go out and do as otherwise it will never improve in a test situation never mind how good she is at home.

 

[alainax]

There was a really interesting tutorial by carl or charlotte on how to get the big flashy paces, can't seem to find it right now though! It was about the training of the pace and when to push! I'm sure there was a lot of forward in it iirc!

 

[milliepops]

To an extent, I'm sure you're right Alex- let's face it, you can't go wrong by developing sitting/pushing in any horse, it will only do good But I still think that conformation will limit the ability of any horse...

I think I've trained Millie 'correctly', she's unrecognisable from the gangly 5 yo I started with, yet she has and always will have long hindlegs and short front legs, is at least an inch shorter at the withers vs croup... sitting is something she finds extremely hard. She's learnt to engage, and wait, but to really sit is quite difficult. So she uses up all her energy doing what sitting she can do... there's not a great deal of scope left to then introduce suspension from that sitting,because pushing then tends to push her onto her front legs. (plus with knackered tendons I'm not really up for that anyway )

Dunno, I wish I had another 10 years with her
Kira's the complete opposite. Kira could sit all day, she doesn't need her front legs Levade is her party trick! She's much more ropey in her acceptance of the training yet I feel that the suspension will come easily to her, she's already got what we have jokingly termed a 'blingy trot' with uphill looseness at the shoulder and a funny toe flick (god only knows how I'll get that at a show, lol). Can only be genetics. IMO.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Absolutely agree, it's an uphill battle lol teaching against their genetics and confo! Hence why we 'should' all just buy WB's and make our lives easier .

 

[milliepops]

Hence why we 'should' all just buy WB's and make our lives easier .

haha yup

Joking aside, you can see it at the top levels too, look past CDJ who has access to the most promising horsepower in the country.. and see other pros at GP turning out horse after horse after horse over the years.. some have that wow factor, and some don't, despite showing all the harmony and correctness that only really good thorough training can produce. So not only do we need WBs, we need super mega amazing WBs! lol!

OP, I hope someone will come along with the magic solution. For now I think the consensus we're approaching is to keep on, keeping on. And hope for the best

 

[Goldenstar]

Absolutely agree, it's an uphill battle lol teaching against their genetics and confo! Hence why we 'should' all just buy WB's and make our lives easier .

The reason young warmblood achieve the stratospheric prices they do is because the best ones come with all the suspension and uphill movement built in .
Good training should always enhance the paces but that goes for the best moving one as well .

 

[milliepops]

I hope the OP will pop back and join the discussion because it's a really interesting one

I personally have made my peace with having 6.5 to 7 horses, we can get a few higher marks for the things they find easier but let's face it, not everyone is going to be in the 80s.
If we can go up a level without seeing a big drop in scores, then that tells me the basic way of going must be "good enough" for the demands of the test, and the judge will always comment on areas for improvement - that's not condemning the rest of it.

I don't think that makes it a crime to move on up the levels, for one thing, riding at the next level teaches me as a rider SO much more about how to ride the more basic stuff *better*. If we all waited until we were getting 8s across the board, intro classes would have to start at 6am and finish in the evening and there would be no one in the higher levels at all!

 

[007Equestrian]

Popping back in don't worry

 

[007Equestrian]

I hope the OP will pop back and join the discussion because it's a really interesting one

I personally have made my peace with having 6.5 to 7 horses, we can get a few higher marks for the things they find easier but let's face it, not everyone is going to be in the 80s.
If we can go up a level without seeing a big drop in scores, then that tells me the basic way of going must be "good enough" for the demands of the test, and the judge will always comment on areas for improvement - that's not condemning the rest of it.

I don't think that makes it a crime to move on up the levels, for one thing, riding at the next level teaches me as a rider SO much more about how to ride the more basic stuff *better*. If we all waited until we were getting 8s across the board, intro classes would have to start at 6am and finish in the evening and there would be no one in the higher levels at all!

I feel my boy and your girl could be soulmates haha. He's built very level or a smidge uphill but unfortunately has a slightly longer back which leads to any collected canter where his back lifts seeming croup high! He can bring his back up and legs under the girth but unfortunately its a hill rather than a slope - up in the middle and down on either end!

 

[007Equestrian]

It wss very frustrating this past weekend, the only negative comments on our test were "needs to collect and lift shoulder" not one other mistake! But we were left on 66% when a very attractive flashy warmblood blew up twice in his test but came 2nd with 73%. I don't like to compare but if I'd work my butt off to get our average mark to be a 7.5/8 rather than a 6/6.5! Buying a flashy warmblood also isnt an option for me haha

 

[milliepops]

if that was the only negative comment then I think you need to think differently about this - that would suggest that the rest of the work is in place as you said, and this is something you can develop - just probably not to the scope of a horse that is "born with it".

One thing that my trainer said to me when I first started at AM was that I needed to ride each movement "with a capital letter". So rather than just ride a half pass, Ride A Half Pass. Set up, balance, refresh the forwardness, and go for it. And repeat for each movement. I'm still working on keeping my brain that engaged but when I remember to ride every last step like that, I see we get better scores/comments.

So... typical sequence of moves, say - shoulder in/10m circle/half pass etc - before each one, reframe the trot momentarily so you are showing your horse's best possible work . That helps mine to stay collected and off the front end.. won't solve the problem of suspension but at least makes it look lighter! Could that apply? You are probably better at remembering that than I am, if I start to forget where I'm going I tend to forget to ride as well!

 

[tallyho!]

Oh no my pet hate subject that I can't help myself from commenting on! I should just back away...

Yes so if you want a horse that can wave it's front legs about, go get a wb... correct training is correct training for any horse but apparently judges can't give marks for that anymore.

Hate being outdone by the wbs waving their front legs about whilst performing a fairly mediocre test overall? Are you doing a perfect test, then getting less mark than the wb that can't even ride a straight line without having a fit?

Then, it's time to leave the circus.

Do I sound bitter?

 

[007Equestrian]

if that was the only negative comment then I think you need to think differently about this - that would suggest that the rest of the work is in place as you said, and this is something you can develop - just probably not to the scope of a horse that is "born with it".

One thing that my trainer said to me when I first started at AM was that I needed to ride each movement "with a capital letter". So rather than just ride a half pass, Ride A Half Pass. Set up, balance, refresh the forwardness, and go for it. And repeat for each movement. I'm still working on keeping my brain that engaged but when I remember to ride every last step like that, I see we get better scores/comments.

So... typical sequence of moves, say - shoulder in/10m circle/half pass etc - before each one, reframe the trot momentarily so you are showing your horse's best possible work . That helps mine to stay collected and off the front end.. won't solve the problem of suspension but at least makes it look lighter! Could that apply? You are probably better at remembering that than I am, if I start to forget where I'm going I tend to forget to ride as well!

Yes this is actually what we've been working on, our horses must be twins haha! I've had to get very good at riding accurately which thankfully seems to be paying off as we didn't get any comments from any of the judges referencing angle of lateral/size of circles/not at marker etc. Although it for sure melts your brain 😂 too much concentration! Medium 76 in particular was a nightmare to learn...

I'm planning to incorporate some hillwork in trot and canter before the nationals and get her so insanely fit that hopefully the buzziness carries us through haha. Possibly some low bounce fences and raised trotting poles also and trying to get collected, working and medium within a shoulder in. Outside of that my creativity with exercises is the limiting factor haha!

 

[007Equestrian]

Oh no my pet hate subject that I can't help myself from commenting on! I should just back away...

Yes so if you want a horse that can wave it's front legs about, go get a wb... correct training is correct training for any horse but apparently judges can't give marks for that anymore.

Hate being outdone by the wbs waving their front legs about whilst performing a fairly mediocre test overall? Are you doing a perfect test, then getting less mark than the wb that can't even ride a straight line without having a fit?

Then, it's time to leave the circus.

Do I sound bitter?

I agree with this to an extent. I believe that a correct horse can still beat a flashy warmblood... if said warmblood makes substantial mistakes haha. I saw a friends test sheet (albeit at novice) for her gorgeous 17hh young chestnut warmblood stallion. She started on 8s and 9s for his first few movements and only dropped to 6s when he got randy and decided to attempt to join the pony next door haha. Wheras my very well behaved gelding who rode a very accurate test started on 7, quickly dropping to 6s and 6.5s with the odd 7. It seems to be your first three moves dictate whether you'll be a 6, 6.5 or 7 average throughout your test.

 

[tallyho!]

I agree with this to an extent. I believe that a correct horse can still beat a flashy warmblood... if said warmblood makes substantial mistakes haha. I saw a friends test sheet (albeit at novice) for her gorgeous 17hh young chestnut warmblood stallion. She started on 8s and 9s for his first few movements and only dropped to 6s when he got randy and decided to attempt to join the pony next door haha. Wheras my very well behaved gelding who rode a very accurate test started on 7, quickly dropping to 6s and 6.5s with the odd 7. It seems to be your first three moves dictate whether you'll be a 6, 6.5 or 7 average throughout your test.

See it all the time. Still... hasn't put me off dressage, just training my next non-warmblood horse.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike warmbloods at all - lovely horses actually but it's the way it's become de rigueur if you want to do well.

 

[007Equestrian]

See it all the time. Still... hasn't put me off dressage, just training my next non-warmblood horse.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike warmbloods at all - lovely horses actually but it's the way it's become de rigueur if you want to do well.

We clearly just need more bling diamantes to BLIND the judges into giving us 9s hehe. I think warmbloods are stunning as well, but feel I could only own one if I had it from a yearling. I have a very no-nonsense approach to spookiness which suits my irish boy haha, but seeing many warmbloods (and the odd native to be fair) turning themselves inside out at a flower pot at the weekend made me very grateful for what I have. We 'bombproofed' him young with never going into the school if there wasn't a flag/tarp/sprinkler/tinsel/tractor etc in it to get him used to it, however his natural calm temperament was a big help.

 

[daffy44]

Interesting thread. Firstly the idea that all warmbloods come with super cadence, flash etc is just nonsense, there are plenty of average moving warmbloods, there are also downhill ones, bad attitude ones etc. A very good, naturally talented warmblood does have all the genetic gifts of cadence, expression, balance etc, but even in warmbloods its not that common.

Yes, good training can improve every horses paces, way of going, but you also have to accept the physical/mental limitations of the horse, with the more modest movers you have to do your best to gain all the extra marks you can through accuracy, rhythm etc. If, as the OP suggested, the horse is finds collection more natural then I would move up a level and maximise on what your horse can do best. Of course train at home to develop what he struggles with, but dont waste his natural gifts.

Even the very best training cant give every horse everything, Nip Tuck does not have an extended trot, no one can say his training has been lacking! But he is trained and ridden to make the most of everything else he can do, but even Carl cant turn him into Valegro, its the natural limitations of the horse. Enjoy what your horse can do, dont just see the negative.

 

[007Equestrian]

Interesting thread. Firstly the idea that all warmbloods come with super cadence, flash etc is just nonsense, there are plenty of average moving warmbloods, there are also downhill ones, bad attitude ones etc. A very good, naturally talented warmblood does have all the genetic gifts of cadence, expression, balance etc, but even in warmbloods its not that common.

Yes, good training can improve every horses paces, way of going, but you also have to accept the physical/mental limitations of the horse, with the more modest movers you have to do your best to gain all the extra marks you can through accuracy, rhythm etc. If, as the OP suggested, the horse is finds collection more natural then I would move up a level and maximise on what your horse can do best. Of course train at home to develop what he struggles with, but dont waste his natural gifts.

Very true. I saw a stallion at a recent show with VERY 'popular' and 'commercial' bloodlines. I'll let you think of them but essentially he was HouseholdNameDressageStallion x MareByAnotherHouseholdName. And he was downhill, on the forehand, had very choppy paces and honestly I was surprised to see he was entire never mind his breeding. It just goes to show breeding excellence to excellence doesn't always achieve excellence!

Even the very best training cant give every horse everything, Nip Tuck does not have an extended trot, no one can say his training has been lacking! But he is trained and ridden to make the most of everything else he can do, but even Carl cant turn him into Valegro, its the natural limitations of the horse. Enjoy what your horse can do, dont just see the negative.

Now if only judges reacted to me the same way they do when Carl, Charlotte or any of the other dressage celebrities enter the ring! First step is probably gaining a tenth of their ability

 

[tallyho!]

Interesting thread. Firstly the idea that all warmbloods come with super cadence, flash etc is just nonsense, there are plenty of average moving warmbloods, there are also downhill ones, bad attitude ones etc. A very good, naturally talented warmblood does have all the genetic gifts of cadence, expression, balance etc, but even in warmbloods its not that common.

In defence of my post, which I'm sure you're not referring to at all , I did use the term rather glibly to encompass ALL warmbloods but I hope you noticed that I used my refined sense of humour to have a jibe at judges and not the horses themselves!

 

[daffy44]

I truely wasnt referring to your post at all. I just find it is a very commonly used generalisation that all warmbloods are born mega moving superstars! Some are, some certainly are not, sadly its just not that simple, and also very often the super flashy warmblood you see winning Novices by a million miles doesnt actually train on to the higher levels, whereas the very correct, non flashy horse that is beaten at the lower levels, trains on very well.

 

[milliepops]

Even the very best training cant give every horse everything, Nip Tuck does not have an extended trot, no one can say his training has been lacking! But he is trained and ridden to make the most of everything else he can do, but even Carl cant turn him into Valegro, its the natural limitations of the horse. Enjoy what your horse can do, dont just see the negative.

Love this, very true. I think it's one of the things I have enjoyed most about watching Nip Tuck's journey, he's clearly not megastar material, still isn't, really, yet can still deliver a spellbinding performance where you are just willing him to succeed, and he does hoover up those marks through DETAIL. While few of us can relate to Carl's ability, all of us can relate to wanting to get the best from our horses.

also very often the super flashy warmblood you see winning Novices by a million miles doesnt actually train on to the higher levels, whereas the very correct, non flashy horse that is beaten at the lower levels, trains on very well.

Holding on to these words...
I think it's easy to just notice the ones at the top of the sport and think 'oh you've got to have a WB to do well'. Well .. it probably helps to have the right body and brain for the job, and those 2 things often seem to coincide in a WB. But let's be honest, how many of us on HHO are really going to be riding at those top flight levels? It's probably not because of a lack of horsepower either - more likely a lack of time, job pressures, competing demands of family life etc. It's tight at the top. But the really amazing thing about equestrian sport is the average hobby rider can still participate with an average horse. It feels quite intimidating to be riding my little one into AM classes now but on the other hand, no one has any expectations of us.. so when we do the right thing, we get the right score and there's no pressure.
I feel like I've come full circle, lol!

 

[be positive]

The difference between the top pro on the less talented horse and the rest of us is that the pro can ride for/ get a 9 or 10 for some movements which make up for the lower marks to an extent, they will really go for certain parts of a test where the horse can gain higher marks, whether that is showing the ability to extend/ collect/ do lateral work or just be extremely accurate through the whole test.

I think with an average horse getting average marks throughout the test the rider probably has to push the boundaries where they think they can gain extra marks, if they go too far and fluff it there is always another day/ test to try again, being conservative and doing an accurate test with no mistakes will rarely gain the marks required to win at any level which is why even the fancy movers explode at times because even they are being pushed towards their limits of training, apart from the odd really explosive ones that are ridden with the hand brake on.

Confidence also plays a huge part, the horse has to feel really confident in order to move at it's best, the rider has to be confident to ride for every mark with a bit of a don't care if it goes wrong attitude, most of us almost try too hard to get it right so perform below our best in the ring and that applies to most spheres.

 

[sav123]

I have nothing helpful to contribute to this, but just wanted to say that it is a very interesting and useful discussion!

 

[Bernster]

I have nothing helpful to contribute to this, but just wanted to say that it is a very interesting and useful discussion!

Me too!