Creating 'flashy' dressage paces in the Medium/Advanced Horse?

[Micropony]

Nothing clever to add, just an observation... How many of us could sit properly on those huge flashy paces anyway? I will never reach the dizzy heights for many reasons, and my preference would always be for correct but moderate paces and a great temperament. That way I have some chance of actually being able to ride and influence the horse correctly, and it will probably last longer. For example I was blown away by watching Der Designer in a couple of demos with Michael Eilberg. The way that horse moved was just thrilling. But you'd have to be a Michael Eilberg to be able to ride it, and there aren't many of those around!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

On sitting to paces, you'd be surprised at how easy it can be to sit to something that looks to have massive movement if the horse is soft and accepting over the back. Topaz moves very differently to the lovely warmbloods out there, but once she is soft over her back it isn't that hard with a bit of work on my core strength. However that's imagining that the lovely horse is just trotting round being all obedient and not trying to wazz about because a piece of grass looked at them wrong .

My comments about WB's were that if we were sensible, you would go and buy something that is built and has all the natural attributes you want for the job, to make training them the easiest it can be. There might be many poor moving WB's out there but I would assume if you were looking for a dressage horse you'd pass these by.

I have never found any judge to judge unfairly between different breeds at affiliated competition. On balance WB's might score higher because they are the better horse, and I think the point above about us amateurs not riding for every mark is very true!

 

[milliepops]

I think the point above about us amateurs not riding for every mark is very true!

yes definitely! I've been doing quite a lot of test riding practice with some intro/prelim riders lately just to help them find their feet, ditch some nerves and improve scores a bit. Helping them to deconstruct the tests to get every mark possible has really helped me to think about my own tests too

 

[tallyho!]

Nothing clever to add, just an observation... How many of us could sit properly on those huge flashy paces anyway?

From experience, quite easy because the ones I experienced were forward and the engine was revving nicely... I find it easier to sit/ride a horse that is using it's power well than one which is all all leg and nothing in the middle - horses that don't give you anything to sit on but look easy are much worse to ride. Training my youngster, the engine often cuts out and it hurts my back trying to ride a low-geared, handbraked horse. If I can't restart it, I throw in the towel and try another day when the engine is firing on all cylinders

 

[Caol Ila]

When I was showing in the States in the late 90s/early 2000s, a lot of the judging at the low levels seemed to operate on a system whereby every horse was scored for its gaits and that was the base score for every movement in the test. A horse could win more points or lose them depending on how well or how badly it did the movement, but the horse endowed with better gaits (meaning floaty and toe-flicky) started with an advantage. If you had an 8 mover, you could get an 8 if the movement was okay, a 9 or 10 if you rode it really well, or a 6 or 7 if you ballsed it up. But if you had a 6 mover, you could push it to an 8 if you rode the movement exceptionally well, a 6 if it was just competently executed, or a 5 or 4 if you screwed it up.

That said, a horse who could move up the levels, no matter what the breed, could get some decent scores because the upper levels have more movements, and a good rider could squeeze points out of all of those on his/her non-flashy horse. But at the low levels where there isn't a lot going on, the gait scores were massively advantageous to the horses with flicky, floaty gaits.

 

[nikkimariet]

How many of us could sit properly on those huge flashy paces anyway?!

Quite easily actually. If you've got a good seat, and the horse is working over the back... It's a doddle.

Riding a horse like that effectively is another question entirely.

 

[wingedhorse]

On sitting to paces, you'd be surprised at how easy it can be to sit to something that looks to have massive movement if the horse is soft and accepting over the back. Topaz moves very differently to the lovely warmbloods out there, but once she is soft over her back it isn't that hard with a bit of work on my core strength. However that's imagining that the lovely horse is just trotting round being all obedient and not trying to wazz about because a piece of grass looked at them wrong .

My comments about WB's were that if we were sensible, you would go and buy something that is built and has all the natural attributes you want for the job, to make training them the easiest it can be. There might be many poor moving WB's out there but I would assume if you were looking for a dressage horse you'd pass these by.

!

I think though if you are an average amateur dressage rider. Maybe aspiring to get to advanced medium or there abouts.

If starting again, you might want to look for a horse that is totally sound, with good conformation, an uphill tendency, built to be able to both take weight back and to extend without difficulty, good paces, good natural rhythm and a kind but forward thinking temperament.

That would make the job easier, assuming the extra challenge isn’t part of the fun?

That criteria may be met by a range of horse types and breeds not just dressage warmbloods. And not all dressage bred warmbloods would meet that criteria.

 

[tallyho!]

Quite easily actually. If you've got a good seat, and the horse is working over the back... It's a doddle.

Riding a horse like that effectively is another question entirely.

I agree with first point as above but could you elaborate a bit on the efficacy bit?

 

[daffy44]

I think though if you are an average amateur dressage rider. Maybe aspiring to get to advanced medium or there abouts.

If starting again, you might want to look for a horse that is totally sound, with good conformation, an uphill tendency, built to be able to both take weight back and to extend without difficulty, good paces, good natural rhythm and a kind but forward thinking temperament.

That would make the job easier, assuming the extra challenge isn’t part of the fun?

That criteria may be met by a range of horse types and breeds not just dressage warmbloods. And not all dressage bred warmbloods would meet that criteria.

This!!! Absolutely

 

[rachk89]

Get a half warmblood then you can afford one.

Genetics do help really. I wouldn't say my horse has overly flashy paces, he doesn't kick out his front legs impressively at least, but he works from behind naturally, that is where the 'engine' is as I say to my non horsey friends. He's never on the forehand, he doesn't pull, he goes round easily, you don't actually have to ask him to work properly once he's warmed up he just does it. You ask, he gives basically. I was trying to get extension before the kissing spine issues, but not getting far, however that may have been because of the kissing spine. Keeping the focus with him is the problem usually as he is like a naughty boy in the classroom, always looking for mischief. When he's really bad, straight lines just can't happen, we just get dizzy doing lots of turns, circles, serpentines, transitions etc just to keep him thinking and listening. Tend to throw in random complicated stuff to really confuse him, that's when the spooking stops generally as he's confused about where I'm asking him to put his feet.

Saying that, he's not easy to ride, to sit to I mean. He gets worse the more he gives, the better he goes the more I get pinged out of the saddle. My bad core strength though doesn't help that, but other riders with far better core strength struggle too with him. He's just so strong and once he's back in work his back end just goes solid with muscle.

I do have it easier to create a dressage horse with him, when I have his attention from the mares. But it's still got its challenges.

 

[007Equestrian]

When I was showing in the States in the late 90s/early 2000s, a lot of the judging at the low levels seemed to operate on a system whereby every horse was scored for its gaits and that was the base score for every movement in the test. A horse could win more points or lose them depending on how well or how badly it did the movement, but the horse endowed with better gaits (meaning floaty and toe-flicky) started with an advantage. If you had an 8 mover, you could get an 8 if the movement was okay, a 9 or 10 if you rode it really well, or a 6 or 7 if you ballsed it up. But if you had a 6 mover, you could push it to an 8 if you rode the movement exceptionally well, a 6 if it was just competently executed, or a 5 or 4 if you screwed it up.

That said, a horse who could move up the levels, no matter what the breed, could get some decent scores because the upper levels have more movements, and a good rider could squeeze points out of all of those on his/her non-flashy horse. But at the low levels where there isn't a lot going on, the gait scores were massively advantageous to the horses with flicky, floaty gaits.

This is what I've found at my level as well, you just worded it better than me!

 

[DabDab]

The difference between the top pro on the less talented horse and the rest of us is that the pro can ride for/ get a 9 or 10 for some movements which make up for the lower marks to an extent, they will really go for certain parts of a test where the horse can gain higher marks, whether that is showing the ability to extend/ collect/ do lateral work or just be extremely accurate through the whole test.

I think with an average horse getting average marks throughout the test the rider probably has to push the boundaries where they think they can gain extra marks, if they go too far and fluff it there is always another day/ test to try again, being conservative and doing an accurate test with no mistakes will rarely gain the marks required to win at any level which is why even the fancy movers explode at times because even they are being pushed towards their limits of training, apart from the odd really explosive ones that are ridden with the hand brake on.

Confidence also plays a huge part, the horse has to feel really confident in order to move at it's best, the rider has to be confident to ride for every mark with a bit of a don't care if it goes wrong attitude, most of us almost try too hard to get it right so perform below our best in the ring and that applies to most spheres.

I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

I think having the horse with the right natural inclination counts for as much as paces when moving up to the higher levels to be honest. Some horses are far easier to train cadence and extension into because they are more naturally responsive mentally to that kind of training.

If I take a massive sideways step into a dog training comparison (bear with me ), I have two terriers with very similar physical attributes and with a similar level of intelligence. One can do all manner of tricks with gusto and flair - high five, fetching items, closing doors and will happily hold a conversation with you....the other also does some of these things, but in a very mechanical, 'taught' kind of fashion. The only difference between the two is their temperaments and natural inclinations.

Back to horses, and I have two now who are almost polar opposites temperament wise. One can just about do a medium trot under saddle with a lot of assistance and setting up and it has taken a long time for the penny to drop. The other is 3, unbacked, pretty much untrained and I taught her to transition between working and medium trot while loose schooling (something that the older one is still incapable of) in about 10 minutes of one session. Yes they're different physically, but the main difference is their natural inclinations. If I say jump to the little on she says 'how high?' If I say jump to the older one he says 'ok, that sounds like an interesting suggestion, I'll give it some thought and get back to you'. In comparison the ability to learn cadence lies with the big one - his desire to contemplate how to put each foot down before doing it means that the moment you ask for collection you have beautiful expression and he starts to actually use his body properly, despite the fact that he still doesn't have a decent working trot without you really getting after him.

Of course the top flight is reserved for the top horses physically, but I firmly believe that in the vast majority of horses it is the brain rather than the body that limits. And that is of course why good training is so very effective.

 

[007Equestrian]

I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

I think having the horse with the right natural inclination counts for as much as paces when moving up to the higher levels to be honest. Some horses are far easier to train cadence and extension into because they are more naturally responsive mentally to that kind of training.

If I take a massive sideways step into a dog training comparison (bear with me ), I have two terriers with very similar physical attributes and with a similar level of intelligence. One can do all manner of tricks with gusto and flair - high five, fetching items, closing doors and will happily hold a conversation with you....the other also does some of these things, but in a very mechanical, 'taught' kind of fashion. The only difference between the two is their temperaments and natural inclinations.

Back to horses, and I have two now who are almost polar opposites temperament wise. One can just about do a medium trot under saddle with a lot of assistance and setting up and it has taken a long time for the penny to drop. The other is 3, unbacked, pretty much untrained and I taught her to transition between working and medium trot while loose schooling (something that the older one is still incapable of) in about 10 minutes of one session. Yes they're different physically, but the main difference is their natural inclinations. If I say jump to the little on she says 'how high?' If I say jump to the older one he says 'ok, that sounds like an interesting suggestion, I'll give it some thought and get back to you'. In comparison the ability to learn cadence lies with the big one - his desire to contemplate how to put each foot down before doing it means that the moment you ask for collection you have beautiful expression and he starts to actually use his body properly, despite the fact that he still doesn't have a decent working trot without you really getting after him.

Of course the top flight is reserved for the top horses physically, but I firmly believe that in the vast majority of horses it is the brain rather than the body that limits. And that is of course why good training is so very effective.

This was so interesting to read! Thank you for taking the time to write it all out. Do you have any exercises which helped get your big lad to be motivated to show more cadence? My boy is so so willing but can be a little slow for the penny to drop. He used to not be able to half pass because he didnt step properly forwards and under and thus kicked himself every stride! Once the penny dropped he was doing steep half pass with ease within a month or two. Ditto the changes, they took a year but he was doing 4s and 3s within a month of them 'clicking'. I'm just hoping the more advanced collection is the same!!

 

[DabDab]

Um, mostly done in hand and then translated to saddle, but to be honest his brain so naturally lends itself to that way of going it is only really limited by his physical fitness right now. His brain naturally tends towards wait and contemplate, whereas it sounds like you have to train that mindset in your horse - that I guess is your training puzzle. With my horse the training puzzle is to get him to think workmanlike, like I assume yours does naturally.

 

[007Equestrian]

Um, mostly done in hand and then translated to saddle, but to be honest his brain so naturally lends itself to that way of going it is only really limited by his physical fitness right now. His brain naturally tends towards wait and contemplate, whereas it sounds like you have to train that mindset in your horse - that I guess is your training puzzle. With my horse the training puzzle is to get him to think workmanlike, like I assume yours does naturally.

You hit the nail on the head haha. We have a lovely fourth gear we can cruise along in all day with a nice rhythm and activity but trying to get that 'wait' and cadence in the step just leads to us slowing down and losing power. Maybe I should tie helium balloons to his feet... or maybe a jet pack...

 

[be positive]

I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

When I suggested pushing for the extra marks I meant riding each movement to it's best not pushing the horse to it's limits or beyond, most of us ride a bit cautiously in a test aware of not wanting to risk making an error, missing a marker or breaking the pace, the pros will take those risks partly because their reactions are more finely tuned, partly because it is just another test on another horse, partly because if they don't push for 100% they will never know if the horse will cope with the pressure at the highest level.

For the majority of us each test is important and we ride a bit conservatively, some of the best tests I have ridden and scored in have been on lazier horses that need pushing to get the best out of them, riding every movement with real purpose gets rewarded by higher marks and those lazy horses have beaten the flashy ones because each movement has been correctly started and finished, how often do we see a med trot start well and then the rider barely does a downward transition because the trot has fizzled out, the same with lateral work it is often set up well ridden well enough then the horse just drifts out at the end rather than being ridden out and set up for the next movement, each part of a test needs equal riding there should be nowhere that the rider can sit doing nothing, if there is a quiet period they should be trying to improve the pace not accepting what they are being given.

All well and good in theory, far more difficult in reality but for the OP a lesson with a top level dressage judge may be useful, I know many trainers judge but the insight from a top judge can be really useful, I had some lessons with a now FEI judge years ago and she taught me a lot about test riding that actually made a huge difference to my way of thinking and riding a test, she always expected every movement to be ridden 100% accurately until it became second nature, I still "hear" her at times when I am riding and it makes me sit up and ride better!!

 

[ycbm]

You hit the nail on the head haha. We have a lovely fourth gear we can cruise along in all day with a nice rhythm and activity but trying to get that 'wait' and cadence in the step just leads to us slowing down and losing power. Maybe I should tie helium balloons to his feet... or maybe a jet pack...

I have been reading this thread with interest because I've had three elevated warmbloods but usually have more ordinary horses. The warmbloods, if they are physically and mentally sound, are ime far easier to train and get good scores on for competitive dressage.

I don't compete at the moment, and never have competed dressage with a real will to win rather than have a nice day out. But for what it's worth, with the ordinary horses, I think the modern training for speed in the paces at the lower levels to generate 'activity' is the enemy of suspension at the higher levels.

Getting up off the floor requires a form of weight training in horses which weren't born to it. Unless you slow things down, that doesn't happen. It might be possible if you are prepared to take a big hold on the reins and drive the horse into it so that he has nowhere else to go but into higher suspension, but that can hardly be described as 'self carriage'.

For me, this is all about half halts and transitions between and within the paces. A million of them. A billion of them. And slowing the trot and canter as slow as the horse can do and holding that for increasing lengths of time to develop strength. Then speeding it back up by asking for lift. Building strength over years, irrespective of what that might score in a prelim or novice test.

The basic physical ability of the horse does matter though. If the freedom in the joints isn't there to start with, it's going to be very difficult, or impossible, to train that in.


Just my musings from a non competitive rider with an 'ordinary' 7 year old Clyde cross working medium at home. Feel free to ignore.

 

[tristar]

speed is not rhythm, speed is not balance, speed has no place in the early training of the horse, speed can be running.

going forward within the rhythm with balance at the level of the horses training is where i find activity, it does not come from speed,

if a horse cannot lengthen, to me it is not ready to advance, it is a most novice movement that is offered, not forced by the young horse, maybe some horses can`t, but i don`t know any.

personally i am not in a rush, if it takes years it takes years, and more years, because i don`t intend to subject my horses to other people`s ridged standard, when i know from experience how greatly a horse can change as it develops.

you`ve only got to look at caramello the mule and that hairy cob that`s about to come out at gp to change your perspective , if only in regard to the possiblities, the cob is sixteen and they train him 3 times a week, hardly a horse that`s been hammered, and for me that may be one of the secrets, and for them the reward of arriving where most are trying to get to.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

if a horse cannot lengthen, to me it is not ready to advance, it is a most novice movement that is offered, not forced by the young horse, maybe some horses can`t, but i don`t know any.

My knee's up carriage horse finds lengthening a completely foreign language, should I have kept her at novice until she understood?

For reference she's out scoring high 60's at medium, she still generally only can get around a 6 for med/extended trot movements, can sometimes easily be less and generally probably should be less but the judges can see her trying I guess.

Until you have the exception horse, or have that one who doesn't conform to the normal ideals of the scales of training it can seem bonkers to move up without some of what others would class as the absolute basics.


Back to the original point of the thread, I've started asking for more cadence in Topaz's collected trot for the start of passage and the start of half steps in Topaz's last two schooling sessions, the difference this has made to her normal working trot has been fabulous . She does find this stuff fairly easy, but I really do think this would be the way I would try to introduce 'flashiness' to a more earth bound horse.

 

[milliepops]

Back to the original point of the thread, I've started asking for more cadence in Topaz's collected trot for the start of passage and the start of half steps in Topaz's last two schooling sessions, the difference this has made to her normal working trot has been fabulous . She does find this stuff fairly easy, but I really do think this would be the way I would try to introduce 'flashiness' to a more earth bound horse.

I think this works for lots of people... I think it will be effective with Topaz because you have that built-in hotness which will make her want to use her energy

Before Millie was injured last year we were developing the same, but her natural inclination is slow hindlegs & extensions - she found it really hard to be hot enough and quick enough to do this without just getting tight. Kira will find it easier... when she remembers to stay forward. OK, next horse will be a hot one, sod the WB bit, it just needs to be hot! lol!

I had a good outing yesterday and after having 2 sheets on the run demanding 'air time' in her paces, the next one had nice comments about her training and she got good marks for her paces. So :tongue3: *blows raspberries* personally I'm going to just carry on doing the stuff she's good at and not fretting about the rest

 

[j1ffy]

If I had to wait for genuine medium trot I'd be stuck at Prelim forever with Pocholo! As a short-legged, short-coupled, knee-high, efficient-moving PRE it's completely unnatural for him. We're getting the odd steps of genuine medium at home but, as my instructor said, we probably won't get a true marker-to-marker medium until we're working on PSG-level extended trot (and PSG is a pipe dream!).

This is a very interesting thread with lots of food for thought. I do believe correct dressage training can hugely improve paces - I've seen it in both my PREs and we're only at the lower levels - but ultimately we have to play the hand we're dealt. Pocholo can do the technical moves well so far but with his movement and shape he's never going to appear as supple, elastic and cadenced as a talented warmblood (or a talented PRE for that matter), but he more than makes up for it with his 'can do' attitude and with how easy he is to do in all respects. Indio has wonkiness issues that will slowly improve but we're always going to struggle with suppleness as a result, even though he does have much bigger paces than Pocholo and finds the lateral work easy.

Would I swap them for a big moving warmblood? Unlikely as I value how much fun and how easy they are to have around, and as an amateur with a full time office job that's as important to me as dressage scores.

 

[milliepops]

If I had to wait for genuine medium trot I'd be stuck at Prelim forever with Pocholo!

lol! Exactly. And look at the team we have at the european champs.... Nip Tuck being one of the 4 horses selected to represent us, and as Daffy mentioned earlier, he STILL doesn't have that wow extension! Imagine if Carl had said, "oh dear, medium trot is not up to par, better stick at prelim for now"

In the test i did yesterday, the medium trot comprised one movement out of 25... one could handle an adequate mark for that you can do the rest really well. Even at GP (just checked, lol) it's only 3 out of 33 and 2 of those have a load of collected trot included within the 10 marks available anyway :wink3:

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I think this works for lots of people... I think it will be effective with Topaz because you have that built-in hotness which will make her want to use her energy

Before Millie was injured last year we were developing the same, but her natural inclination is slow hindlegs & extensions - she found it really hard to be hot enough and quick enough to do this without just getting tight. Kira will find it easier... when she remembers to stay forward. OK, next horse will be a hot one, sod the WB bit, it just needs to be hot! lol!

I had a good outing yesterday and after having 2 sheets on the run demanding 'air time' in her paces, the next one had nice comments about her training and she got good marks for her paces. So :tongue3: *blows raspberries* personally I'm going to just carry on doing the stuff she's good at and not fretting about the rest

Oh yes I have a distinct advantage with both of mine as they act like the floor will burn them at the best of times, harnessing it for my own gain just requires some direction .

Yay for Millie, and that's a good mantra to have I think .

Also just putting this here, mine are 'technically' warmbloods as they are a cross between cold (Friesian) and hot (Hackney), so you know I'm like a stealth warmblood owner :lol:!

 

[daffy44]

Milliepops, you are so, so right, do the stuff your horse is good at, and dont fret about the rest, is the perfect attitude. We should always try to be improving our horses (and ourselves) but never to the point when we are getting too stressed about what our horse lacks.

As for not moving up a level until a horse can lengthen, well I'm afraid I disagree totally, obviously Nip Tuck is a great example of this as i said earlier, personally, I have also competed up to PSG on a horse that had no real extended trot, its a small part of the test.

 

[tallyho!]

I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

I think having the horse with the right natural inclination counts for as much as paces when moving up to the higher levels to be honest. Some horses are far easier to train cadence and extension into because they are more naturally responsive mentally to that kind of training.

If I take a massive sideways step into a dog training comparison (bear with me ), I have two terriers with very similar physical attributes and with a similar level of intelligence. One can do all manner of tricks with gusto and flair - high five, fetching items, closing doors and will happily hold a conversation with you....the other also does some of these things, but in a very mechanical, 'taught' kind of fashion. The only difference between the two is their temperaments and natural inclinations.

Back to horses, and I have two now who are almost polar opposites temperament wise. One can just about do a medium trot under saddle with a lot of assistance and setting up and it has taken a long time for the penny to drop. The other is 3, unbacked, pretty much untrained and I taught her to transition between working and medium trot while loose schooling (something that the older one is still incapable of) in about 10 minutes of one session. Yes they're different physically, but the main difference is their natural inclinations. If I say jump to the little on she says 'how high?' If I say jump to the older one he says 'ok, that sounds like an interesting suggestion, I'll give it some thought and get back to you'. In comparison the ability to learn cadence lies with the big one - his desire to contemplate how to put each foot down before doing it means that the moment you ask for collection you have beautiful expression and he starts to actually use his body properly, despite the fact that he still doesn't have a decent working trot without you really getting after him.

Of course the top flight is reserved for the top horses physically, but I firmly believe that in the vast majority of horses it is the brain rather than the body that limits. And that is of course why good training is so very effective.

So agree about the natural aptitudes! Had a few horses here of similar breeding - the three of them could not have been more different.

Have you also noticed about horses that they can be different with different riders too? I've noticed that a lot and one of the reasons we sometimes swap horses. One mare is a "different horse" when another certain person rides her. There must be a difference in how riders ride too that can be thrown into the "variable" pot.

If we flip it the other way, certain horses can put riders where they want and if you don't notice or are not strong enough to correct it, this can be a bad combination.

I've never been able to put my finger on it before, even though my bookshelf is heavy with classical riding books, but having recently received a very interesting book on biomechanics - I'm so glad to be able to give it some proper thought!

 

[nikkimariet]

I agree with first point as above but could you elaborate a bit on the efficacy bit?

Can the rider keep the horse soft and fluid from a medium trot to collected/etc? Can they ride from HP to an 8m circle without breaking the rhythm? Can they train the horse to changes legs seamlessly, remaining in the same tempo?

Medium trot is just one movement... A lot of people seem to get hung up on it? If you can do it for an 8, fabulous, well done. And if everything else is above a 7, then wahoo! But if your horse is yakking around with its hindlegs in another hemisphere and everything is a little crooked for a 5/6...

There's a slight trend on this thread to insist on certain stages of training being in place before progressing (to another level etc). But that really isn't the case when starting from step 1 to finishing up wherever you want to be. And it's swings and roundabouts anyway; one week you can have a fantastic rhythm but need a little more softness. Then the next week you have a lot of softness and very supple work, but lacking impulsion.

It's not just about being able to do a HP, therefore you can do a medium test. You can use the SI and travers to improve the HP, which improves the balance and suppleness and reactiveness of the horse and thus improving the rest of the work.

The basics for me are - good contact, off the leg, lateral and longitudinal suppleness. Once you've got those (and really got those), everything else falls into place. If they're not falling into place, then the basics aren't good enough and/or there's a lack of basic understanding on the rider and/or horses part.

 

[tristar]

ah yes, one of the basics, longitudinal suppleness, being able to lengthen the frame and and stride in trot, also the horse being able to stretch forward in walk and take down the contact.

both the above could be considered proof of good basic training

considering most horses just broken, even before getting shod, will offer lengthened strides when on soft ground i can`t see what the fuss is about, or is it due to the early riding being too cautious or `safe` and not moving forward properly.

then of course you could throw into the ring the quality of the rider, their experience of encouraging a horse to express itself may not be the best, so the horse is `not able`and once accepting that how do you change that mindset.

 

[ycbm]

I think for the ordinary horse, there's a big difference between lengthened strides loose and lengthened strides carrying 15% of your bodyweight in a rider and track, even a very well balanced rider. And if the horse has the slightest tendency to tip onto its forehand, then asking for lengthening finds it out. I'm not sure that I agree with you that most newly broken ordinary horses will offer lengthened strides when newly sat on. And those that do are more likely, I think, to do it by flinging the hind legs out behind them than by lifting and pushing.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Tristar, do you have any experience of breeds of horses with a high knee action?

You are getting very hung up on the lengthen stride and don't seem to be able to see that, no, some horses do not find this in any way natural. If you watch Topaz loose in the field, she will bounce about doing a cracking passage, I've never seen her offer her own extensions like my PBA or indeed the other carriage horse does.

Being supple, able to take the contact forwards and lengthen the frame are not quite the same as teaching a horse with an exaggerated knee action the ability to lengthen and straighten the leg to perform a medium or extended trot. If you taken a screen shot of Topaz, you can see she is covering more ground by pushing from behind and over tracking, however until the penny drops of straightening the limbs and moving fully through the shoulder she will never extend for a 10. This is not judges being biased, my mindset that she cannot extend (we're still trying and slowly improving) but that due to her conformation and the way she was born moving, she cannot perform the movement as required in affiliated dressage.

That penny does occasionally drop mind, excuse the dodgy leaning back, I think the shock of lengthening got to me :lol:!

Found another picture where I look less ridiculous

^ That doesn't happen often or even for a whole required movement, but I like to look at the screen shots to give me hope

 

[ycbm]

Agree with you Alex. My Clydex is a natural collector, not a natural extender. He's just getting it now, but it's taught not natural. Natural is what I call his Appleby Fair trot. Huge front leg throw, pile driving into the floor in front, back legs in the next county behind us