DEBATE - Equine Chiropractors/Physio's etc

[Beanyowner]

So come on then guys...had a discussion on Sunday with someone about equine chiropractors/physio's etc...just wondering what are all your thoughts on this method of treatment...

Do you think horses can 'put their back out'??
Do you think that Chiro's/physio's can produce some real results in aiding a horses recovery??

Discuss...

 

[fizzer]

always use a mctimoney for my lot and a sports massage therapist, keeps mine in tip top condition, am all for them

 

[brightmount]

I know people swear by these methods, but my own experience is that I have never seen any difference, much as I would LOVE to, because it would be so reassuring to be able to call someone out to fix a problem. The only method I can see the point of is physiotherapy where it involves exercises after injury. The other more vague practices seem (to be controversial) an expensive con

*ducks*

 

[Beanyowner]

I actually agree Lynwood...my horse has recently had 2 visits from a McTimoney chiropractor which I am a little sceptic about anyway...and after a discussion on Sunday, and the chiro coming out again last night I feel that it may be an expensive con as well.
How can a human being claim to 'adjust' a horses pelvis?!?! How can someone who is suppose to understand equine skeletal anatomy tell me that my horse has 3 slightly 'rotated' vertebrae...now the last time I checked I didn't think they were able to rotate or move very far at all for that matter!

Anyone care to try and explain...

 

[BBs]

I think like humans horses can trap a nerve or twist something.
I know winston if he rolls funny in his stable he can come out very stiff, he can appear to be lame or pulling up short behind - and I also find him difficult to keep straight is another indication.
I have always had a chiropractor and she always made winston feel much better, although it didnt look like she did an awful lot.
However, in the autumn i used a chiropractor who used methods i had never seen (more of a physio) and she made a HUGE difference she also showed me what she was doing and showed me the before and the after which as very interesting.

I know, I suffer a lot with my back and whenever i go to my chiropractor they make a real difference, so if they can do it to me why not the horse?

 

[truffles]

Sorry, just a quickie - are chiropractors and physio the same thing?? Getting back person out, and obv want to get the most effective person out!! if they differ, in what way?

thanks very much, sorry for the post hijack

 

[Ginn]

I think horses can pull muscles just like we can and I think they enjoy a really good massage which will help relieve tension just like we do.

I don't think that, with the exception of extreme circumstances (a horse taking a hurdle at 35 mph and crashing through it into the ground for example) that a horse is going to "put its back out" and I also think that "slipping discs", "misaligned vetabrae" etc are damned near impossible to come across as the likely effect would be a crushed spinal chord and paraysis (same with humans!) And as for twisted pelvis's etc - you can develop muscles more on one side than another and this may give the impression that the pelvis is "misaligned" but actually thats all it it - an impression. I managed to wrench my sides and back years ago in a fall - the whole right side of my body tensed up and for ages I went around with one side of my pelvis "higher" than the other - it wasn't higher as such but the muscles were pulling everything closer on one side than the other and is was quickly sorted.

The only "back person" I would have see my horse would be a qualified physio on recommendation of my vet follwoing an investigated problem.

I would however happily treat Tilly to a good massage by a trained massuse as I know how much I enjoy one myself and it is wonderful for tired achy and tense muscles but I would not pretend that the back was being manipulated etc - you'd need several charging elephants and a lot of rope to have a chance of doing that!

IMO, "back problems" that require regular chiropractor treatments are usually tense backs that need a good massage and then I'd question why the back is always so tense? (Bad riding? poorly fitting saddle? too much work asked for level of fitness? etc). On referal from a vet after a thorough investigation is different and should be treated accordingly.

ETS: Are my suspicions on who this converstaion was with correct?

 

[Madam_max]

I know a lot of people who say their equine physio/chiro put their pelvis etc back.

. I don't get that. I have a physio who I swear by who has done wonders for Corroy, but she uses the H-Wave machine (I guess a deep massage). She also does Pippa Funnells horses, so if she's good enough for her, she will be fine for Corroy.

 

[Chex]

I don't know much about chiros myself, only going by what my vet has told me. He didn't seem convinced by them, given the strength that would actually be needed to make a difference (ie humans not being strong enough). The only one he thought had worked is someone that uses hammer things.

 

[samp]

I had a chiro out once - never again, she told me what I already knew - pelvis not symmetrical and atlas/ axis (poll) rotated. However, she did very liitle too her charge £50 and for nothing IMO.

If my mare is a bit offish I will gladly get out an equine physio, this helps with muscle tightness etc. No one can manipulate a joint unless under heavy sedation. She always tells you what she is doing and doesn't waster your money. I never need a follow up, she just tells me to call her when I feel necessary

 

[JACQSZOO]

Thats something I've never understood - ther term rotated, whether that be in the poll or pelvis - what does it actually mean?

 

[the watcher]

I have used a chiro and a physio for my horses in the past and I could see results so I know it works. i also visit an osteopath for my back and can verify that facet bones out of place most certainly do cause pain and that they can be put back into place and the pain stops!

 

[Ginn]

[ QUOTE ]
I have used a chiro and a physio for my horses in the past and I could see results so I know it works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not meaning to be rude but that is like saying "I went to a fortune teller and something she told me came true so I know she can see the future"

Often what we see, choose to see and visually interpret differ enormously to what is there. Yes it is very likely there was an improvement in your horse but how do you know that they didn't simply "work out a knot"?

If you take your finger and pull on it really hard, as hard as you possibly can, can you dislocate it? No? If you did you would literally be climbing the walls with pain and that in itself would take a great deal of force. The popping noise you may hear is just like taking two peices of cling fling that are stuck together and pulling them apart, as the air shifts you may hear a small pop.

Now try moving the bones in a horses back..... Its hard enough on daed ones after you have removes much of the surrounding tissues let alone on a living one and if (but some stroke of genius) you do suceed think about the level of pain your horse would have to go through to achieve it!

 

[puddicat]

I know, I suffer a lot with my back and whenever i go to my chiropractor they make a real difference, so if they can do it to me why not the horse?

Because horses are bigger, the arrangement of their musculoskeletal system is considerably different from humans, and there may be differences in their neural programming such that they perceive the effect of manipulation differently. So it might have the same effect but there are sufficient differences for it not to be taken for granted.

 

[puddicat]

I reckon the earth is flat. People keep telling me it's round but it's flat every time I look at it so why shouldn't I believe what I can see with my own eyes?

 

[ru-fi-do]

I had a Mctimoney Chiro to my mare last month, her atlas was misaligned(sp?), her pelvis was alos slightly out, which we already new from her vetting. Afeter she had been i had to do 2 weeks of working her over poles, gradually raising them until they were grids. I had had problems getting Shannon to work long and low, even just strecthing her neck was a problem and she did used to shake her head a fair bit when starting to engage. But now she works really well, will glady strectch her neck and is a lot more balanced, although i have put a lot of work into her scholling. So in this instance i think she has made a difference and do feel quite confident in her. I have used a different Chiro 9 months previous that came watched her move and said all OK, didn't even put her hands on her, wasn't impressed to say the least!

 

[puddicat]

Ahhhhh but.... if you've got asymmetrical muscle development the horse will look asymmetrical and quite possibly be most comfortable standing with its head at an angle so hence a wonky atlas. You only need to do one thing and its very effective: "go and work your horse evenly on both sides for a few months".

...that will be £250 please.

 

[siennamum]

Absolutely correct - couldn't agree more.
I am infuriated by this subject and if I ever had a chiropractor who claimed to be manipulating or realigning a horses pelvis I would run a mile. It's a pretty sure sign of a charlatan in my eyes!!
I use Teresa Prithcard who must be a neighbour of yours T.
She fixes Sienna's trapped nerve, and rarely finds anything else to treat. I've also had a very good physio give S a sports massage as a Christmas treat (sad or wot!!) But I've known chiros cause terrible problems with excessive manipulation, when the problem was actually elsewehere!!!

 

[Law]

*long post alert*

I'm with the Watcher. My horse suddenly went 'not right' he was complaining about making right turns in the arena, then in a large arena he was quite simply 'not right' other people who've known us for 18 months could see it within 5 minutes of warming up in a lesson. I pulled him out of the lesson and went home. That was it. On the phone to the massage lady/physio and she came out and saw him. What she did with him provided tangible results. She took my through what she was doing step by step and told me what she was doing. I could physically feel what she was doing. She also told me that she would rather I worked on the three small areas that she had identified for 5 mins every day rather than her charge me £25 to come out and do it once for me. She then came back a fortnight later and said she was really pleased with the difference in the muscle tone. My horse was still not right and I had the vet come out with the intention of taking blood to see if there was something underlying wrong. Vet saw him undersaddle and said, 'you are right, he's not happy is he' and then saw him lunged and could see that he was a lot happier and his action was fine. He said that it was perhaps a waste of time to take blood and that i'd be better having a chiro look at him. The saddler also came out and said that his saddle wasn't fitting and this was part of the problem.
Massage/Physio lady was excellent and recommended a lady who she'd seen working so I booked her to come out.

Chiro came and did lots of things with him, most of which he thoroughly enjoyed. I'm sure we all know our horses well enough to know when they are enjoying something! She said that she was glad that i'd had physio out first because it gave her a better starting place ie. if his muscles were sore and she 'manipulated' something that moved into sore muscle it would not have helped in the slightest. She did some leg movements with him and within 15 mins he'd picked up no end and went out to the school like a spring lamb. He had to be kept quiet for a day incase he hoolied around on his 'new' legs!

Here is the bit where I agree with some of the other comments. She said he had a tiled and misaligned pelvis and as I understand it this is almost a dead cert for a chiro to say. I should have put money on it really. She tried to show me what she was on about and yes the way she showed it I could 'see' what she was on about but there is no way that I can see how she 'moved' it back. In terms of neck vertebrae being misaligned I can see how that was true and how it was possible for them to be moved back, however, he quite often 'cricks' his neck by himself. The final thing that she commented on was that there were vertebra in the back end (last one or two of lumbar and some sacral) which were out of line. I could physically feel where they were 'out' and they were rather flatter when she adjusted them.
Like I say, he went out like a spring lamb with a new body so I could 'see' the results.
He's since been fitted with a new saddle and has been checked by chiro once since then (last feb) and she was happy with how he was. Also she did not charge the earth; £30 for nearly an hour working with him!

 

[ru-fi-do]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhhhh but.... if you've got asymmetrical muscle development the horse will look asymmetrical and quite possibly be most comfortable standing with its head at an angle so hence a wonky atlas. You only need to do one thing and its very effective: "go and work your horse evenly on both sides for a few months".

...that will be £250 please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you puddicat! Your cheque is on it's way!!

No seriously that does make a lot of sense, i'm useless when it comes to things like Chiro stuff, thats why i always get in the 'expert'. Or so i like to think!

 

[siennamum]

You're absolutely right about the nerve thing - it's precisely what happened to Sienna and is infuriating and can only be treated effectively by a chiropractor.

What you find with a horse which appears unlevel, or has a misaligned pelvis is usually muscle spasms. It's very similar to spasms which we may get as a result of wearing high heels or an uneven pack. It can cause the horse to carry it's head or pelvis out of alignment. It isn't a change in the skeletal sctructure. In fact research has been carried out with dead horses to try and make the pelvis move out of its bed, (or sub-luxate)and it's proved impossible without plant machinery- it would be interesting to understand how a person could manage this by hand!!

If you have a back person out who treats a pelvic or similar issue, they are giving it a jolly good massage and it frees up the spasming muscles and makes the horse feel more comfortable for a few days.

What you aren't doing is treating the cause of the spasming muscles. Generally these are related to teeth, tack, poor riding, front lower limbs or feet, or hocks.

You continually treat a horse for a rotated pelvis and you are potentially damaging the ligaments and muscles and ignoring an underlying condition which is actually causing the horse pain!!!

Not saying you are doing this but I get hot under the collar on this subject!!

 

[hollyzippo]

Perhaps I am in a position to clear up a few queries!
I am a McTimoney Corley therapist. I also work at a vets and get referrals from not only work, but most of the surrounding practices.

The term 'out' should never be used by a practitioner although I am often informed things are 'out' by rather uneducated owners! (It stems from the older practitioners when training wasnt available I think).
Adjustments and manipulation actually dont try (or claim) to move the vertebrae. What they do is release the muscle spasm which is holding the vertebrae with a greater force on one side. Hence the spasm is released and the force pulling (not moving0 it has gone.

A similar technique is used with limb/long lever adjustments. It is proven that bones are not clicked in and out (except a couple of cases) as in humans, but the muscle spasm causes the discomfort. This is what the adjustments relieve.

Personally, I have seen many horses who vets have been unable to diagnose a problem in.

Problems relieved include:
Unidentified lameness, unexplained rearing/bucking, stopping at jumps, assymetrical muscle build up, etc

P.M me if you have any other questions and I will try and clear them up

 

[siennamum]

Holly, what a breath of fresh air you are. I wish we had McTimony Corley practitioners down here are scrupulous as you.
I am a huge fan of McTimony and use a really good lady who, like you works closely with the vet.

 

[Law]

Thank you for posting that as I always feel awkward trying to support chiros as i don't fully understand how they do their work. I should have said that the lady that i had out is a McTimoney Chiropractor.

 

[puddicat]

She took my through what she was doing step by step

The problem with this is, unless you know whether or not the person is saying something that bears any resemblance to reality, they could be saying anything. Bamboozling people with information they don't understand or can't evaluate for themselves is a well explored way of getting someone's confidence unreasonably. I don't know what the answer is, ultimately I suppose there has to be some sort of trust.

It's an unfortunate fact that apart from physiotherapists, none of the handful of people I've met over the past few years that has claimed to know about a horses bones and muscles has ever managed to describe them or show them to me accurately on the live animal. I think this is one of the reasons that vets are a little sceptical of such people. Vets do detailed dissections and physiology as part of their training and there is really no substitute if you want to know where things are and what they do.

 

[puddicat]

She said he had a tiled and misaligned pelvis and as I understand it this is almost a dead cert for a chiro to say.

Yeah, you know if you go to a fortune teller he/she says things like "hmmm I can see you've had illness in the family" because the chances of it being wrong are zero and the punter thinks its mind reading or whatever. Well the pelvis is the horse equivalent. Virtually all if not all horses have asymmetric pelvises to some degree and even the ones that don't look as if they do if you're not very very careful how you stand them up.

Is it a problem? I suppose other horses might think your horse is gay but apart from that...

 

[Law]

[ QUOTE ]


The problem with this is, unless you know whether or not the person is saying something that bears any resemblance to reality, they could be saying anything. Bamboozling people with information they don't understand or can't evaluate for themselves is a well explored way of getting someone's confidence unreasonably.
I think you have hit the nail on the head- thankfully, I had done a degree in equine science and did know what she was talking about (albeit a little rustily!) (apologies for bold but can't work out how to make it not a quote)!

I don't know what the answer is, ultimately I suppose there has to be some sort of trust.
This is also true, I knew her from another client, she runs a successful stud and has a clear empathy and understanding of horses. Her demeanor and way of treating them spoke volumes.



It's an unfortunate fact that apart from physiotherapists, none of the handful of people I've met over the past few years that has claimed to know about a horses bones and muscles has ever managed to describe them or show them to me accurately on the live animal. I think this is one of the reasons that vets are a little sceptical of such people. Vets do detailed dissections and physiology as part of their training and there is really no substitute if you want to know where things are and what they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you here as well. Having done a science degree you can sometimes learn to take a more scientific approach where as this is a more holistic subject in a sense (in as much as without the horse speaking or writing down how he feels, how can we tell whether it works!)

the element of trust is an interesting point- i didn't know the chiropractor at all so it was difficult for me to believe what she was saying about the pelvis etc.

 

[siennamum]

Hi C, will you pm me the name of the person you've used.
Sounds so ropey to me, I can recommend a really good local physio to you (Lou simmons) and a couple of good Mc Timony Chiros, but I assume this treatment is following on from a vet's referral?

 

[hollyzippo]

I did an Equine Science degree before starting the course so feel my Anatomy and Physiology knowledge is pretty comprehensive. we then re-did all of this on McTimoney Corley course. In some areas - muscles mainly- I have studied them more thoroughly than some of the vets at work.

 

[puddicat]

I liked your post and I think it was very measured, carefully worded and clear. I may PM you some questions sometime if that's OK...