Beanyowner
Well-Known Member
ahh I see. Well I would still like to see her reponse...whole point of a debate afterall!!
DEBATE - Equine Chiropractors/Physio's etc
- Thread starter Beanyowner
- Start date
puddicat
Well-Known Member
Oooo it very much isn't semantics, using and interpreting language at that level of detail is absolutely necessary if any headway is to made on a complex subject like this. I think definitions are important, I'd define 'value' in terms of whether the customer perceived it was worthwhile and 'effect' in terms of physiological variables. The two could be totally unrelated.
...has come on a long way in the last two hundred years or so.
Yes I think you're making my point for me aren't you?
I agree 2 centuries ago the understanding of the nature of 'evidence' in a scientific sense was lacking a few important details so medicine was not as evidence-based as it is now. However that also means the arguments for the virtue of leaches and against the practice of witchcraft were also weaker.
Two centuries on the scientific method has 'matured' in the sense that it allows scientists to address most types of problem. Also the results of its application in understanding of how the body works now amounts to an overwhelming amount of literature. So it is not the amount of knowledge which is lacking, it is the ownership of that knowledge which is too limited - that problem is well recognised and being addressed by government and most of the major science organisations in the UK. So a good example is your view below which is very commonly expressed, but totally misplaced:
Science is not static, so maybe we have to wait for conventional treatment to catch up with some of the alternatives before you will be persuaded
Scientific understanding is way in advance of anything needed to explain or evaluate alternatives. As I said, even at undergraduate level the contradiction between some of the claims therapy and the evidence obtained through scientific experiment is so overwhelming that it is difficult to ignore. this is also a big reason why there are so few studies on alternative therapies, it is so obvious that that the effects can't be separated from randomness that it would be a waste of time and money doing the study. (Actually I happen to think this thread would be easier if you could point to a scientific study even if it looked for something and found nothing).
So the knowledge is there for pretty much anyone to aquire. If you think massaging muscle has some particular effect - go and read about muscle and the answer is almost certainly there with little room for ambiguity. The only catch is that its not easy reading and there's a lot of it!
...has come on a long way in the last two hundred years or so.
Yes I think you're making my point for me aren't you?
I agree 2 centuries ago the understanding of the nature of 'evidence' in a scientific sense was lacking a few important details so medicine was not as evidence-based as it is now. However that also means the arguments for the virtue of leaches and against the practice of witchcraft were also weaker.
Two centuries on the scientific method has 'matured' in the sense that it allows scientists to address most types of problem. Also the results of its application in understanding of how the body works now amounts to an overwhelming amount of literature. So it is not the amount of knowledge which is lacking, it is the ownership of that knowledge which is too limited - that problem is well recognised and being addressed by government and most of the major science organisations in the UK. So a good example is your view below which is very commonly expressed, but totally misplaced:
Science is not static, so maybe we have to wait for conventional treatment to catch up with some of the alternatives before you will be persuaded
Scientific understanding is way in advance of anything needed to explain or evaluate alternatives. As I said, even at undergraduate level the contradiction between some of the claims therapy and the evidence obtained through scientific experiment is so overwhelming that it is difficult to ignore. this is also a big reason why there are so few studies on alternative therapies, it is so obvious that that the effects can't be separated from randomness that it would be a waste of time and money doing the study. (Actually I happen to think this thread would be easier if you could point to a scientific study even if it looked for something and found nothing).
So the knowledge is there for pretty much anyone to aquire. If you think massaging muscle has some particular effect - go and read about muscle and the answer is almost certainly there with little room for ambiguity. The only catch is that its not easy reading and there's a lot of it!
the watcher
Well-Known Member
In short, the difference between you and I is that I do not need to 'win' this debate, on any level. Therefore my responses may lack distinction in the exact meaning or interpretation of words used. I am happy to use the commonly understood meaning of words because this is not a debate on which my job, or justification for it, is hanging.
My understanding of a rotated or twisted pelvis would be one which has become uneven with wasted muscle where muscles are pulling unevenly and therefore causing a possible impact on related limbs. It is not my understanding that the major bones have actually moved - as far as I am concerned this is just a common description. In retrospect I wish that I had photographed my mare when she had this particular conditions, as even with a scientific eye you would not be able to deny that there has been a signficant improvement with no other change in handling and routine than one lot of manipulation and leg stretching, and similar exercises left for me to continue the 'treatment'.
This is only one example.
A good doctor, vet or scientist should never have a completely closed mind, in my opinion. There is always more to learn and things that we cannot explain now, but may be able to understand and explain in the future.
Back to the leeches, these were not some alternative treatment in their day, but an accepted medical practice. Whilst there are still some conditions where they have uses, they are not widely used in the same way now..science has given us alternatives.
It may be that all alternative therapies can be proven to be a complete waste of time and money (in respect of effect)given that scientific study is now so advanced..if it were THAT easy I am surprised it has not been done. I would also welcome such a study.
My understanding of a rotated or twisted pelvis would be one which has become uneven with wasted muscle where muscles are pulling unevenly and therefore causing a possible impact on related limbs. It is not my understanding that the major bones have actually moved - as far as I am concerned this is just a common description. In retrospect I wish that I had photographed my mare when she had this particular conditions, as even with a scientific eye you would not be able to deny that there has been a signficant improvement with no other change in handling and routine than one lot of manipulation and leg stretching, and similar exercises left for me to continue the 'treatment'.
This is only one example.
A good doctor, vet or scientist should never have a completely closed mind, in my opinion. There is always more to learn and things that we cannot explain now, but may be able to understand and explain in the future.
Back to the leeches, these were not some alternative treatment in their day, but an accepted medical practice. Whilst there are still some conditions where they have uses, they are not widely used in the same way now..science has given us alternatives.
It may be that all alternative therapies can be proven to be a complete waste of time and money (in respect of effect)given that scientific study is now so advanced..if it were THAT easy I am surprised it has not been done. I would also welcome such a study.
Shiraz
Well-Known Member
My reply was not directed at anyone - all my comments were responses to all the posts that I have read in this thread. I don't know what you mean about "quick replies" or who I have or have not replied to. I'm new to this forum and posting here so apologies for any offense caused by that.
I am supposed to be working so am unable to answer all your questions in detail at the mo' Beany but I will try my best to get back on tonight or tomorrow.
Firstly - and Hollyjz pls correct me if I am wrong - as far I am led to believe her pelvis WAS rotated. I know that her actual pelvis had not moved but due to muscle spasms & mainly tension her point of hip/pelvis had moved and was not in alignment. Through manipulating the muscles the pelvis returned to it's original and correct postion.
Much probing from me revealed that just before my mum bought her she'd been on an unexplained year long box rest (at the time explained away as owner busy with youngsters and my mare just wasn't being used) and that previous to the year off there had been an "incident" on a hack where my mare had got a fright from a lorry, lost her rider, spooked even more and bolted only to be chased by said lorry and it's unknown whether she fell or went over/thru a gate (would explain the white hair on her otherwise chestnut stomach) so she has suffered trauma and since then moved in a way to compensate for the pain - this now is purely pyschological as far as I am aware but when something like that is learnt and has been her way of going for 9yrs...
Sorry I've totally rambled off topic. I was just trying to clarify that her pelvis/point of hip had actually moved and was in a different postion after McT-C was finished session. I know that bones don't move - unless there is something seriously seriously wrong- but due to muscles etc this was in a different/incorrect position.
My point about that books was not a go at Equine science students...the exact opposite. I was saying that the information is out there and not being a degree student is no excuse for not having a basic understanding and there is nothing stopping the average joe blogg from learning the same as students (same for law etc too) as the information is available to everyone. Everyone can learn, does that make more sense?
Hollyjz did kindly offer to answer questions and that happened but it came to point (and I can't see that far back the thread at the moment) when IMO they stopped being questions and the validity of her job was being questioned.
Sorry for the brief, well for me anyway, reply but I hope I have covered most of the questions you asked
I am supposed to be working so am unable to answer all your questions in detail at the mo' Beany but I will try my best to get back on tonight or tomorrow.
Firstly - and Hollyjz pls correct me if I am wrong - as far I am led to believe her pelvis WAS rotated. I know that her actual pelvis had not moved but due to muscle spasms & mainly tension her point of hip/pelvis had moved and was not in alignment. Through manipulating the muscles the pelvis returned to it's original and correct postion.
Much probing from me revealed that just before my mum bought her she'd been on an unexplained year long box rest (at the time explained away as owner busy with youngsters and my mare just wasn't being used) and that previous to the year off there had been an "incident" on a hack where my mare had got a fright from a lorry, lost her rider, spooked even more and bolted only to be chased by said lorry and it's unknown whether she fell or went over/thru a gate (would explain the white hair on her otherwise chestnut stomach) so she has suffered trauma and since then moved in a way to compensate for the pain - this now is purely pyschological as far as I am aware but when something like that is learnt and has been her way of going for 9yrs...
Sorry I've totally rambled off topic. I was just trying to clarify that her pelvis/point of hip had actually moved and was in a different postion after McT-C was finished session. I know that bones don't move - unless there is something seriously seriously wrong- but due to muscles etc this was in a different/incorrect position.
My point about that books was not a go at Equine science students...the exact opposite. I was saying that the information is out there and not being a degree student is no excuse for not having a basic understanding and there is nothing stopping the average joe blogg from learning the same as students (same for law etc too) as the information is available to everyone. Everyone can learn, does that make more sense?
Hollyjz did kindly offer to answer questions and that happened but it came to point (and I can't see that far back the thread at the moment) when IMO they stopped being questions and the validity of her job was being questioned.
Sorry for the brief, well for me anyway, reply but I hope I have covered most of the questions you asked
Scarlett
Well-Known Member
agree 101% with Shiraz - my IDx has just been treated for 'tilting his sacroileac joint' - this is a reoccuring problem he has had and I hope we will see an end too with the correct treatment. It takes my backman 10 min to sort and straight away the results are to be seen, horse tracks up, can stretch his head forward, can lift his off hind over poles instead of dragging it and his tail lys flat rather than up and to the right constantly.
Whether other people think it works or not doesnt matter to me - I am happy in the knowlege my horse is getting fixed after having this problem for over year which was ignored by someone who 'didnt believe in backmen...'
Whether other people think it works or not doesnt matter to me - I am happy in the knowlege my horse is getting fixed after having this problem for over year which was ignored by someone who 'didnt believe in backmen...'
puddicat
Well-Known Member
In short, the difference between you and I is that I do not need to 'win' this debate, on any level.
No you misunderstand my motive: I have no interest in winning the debate in fact I learn more when I lose debates. What I'm trying to do is *progress* the debate, to move it on to try untangle some of the arguments. Serious if you watch Newnight or lawyers or scientists at work, there is room for people taking things personally if debates are going to be challenging. My only interest is in learning and understanding, I've no interest in personalities, back biting, insults, whatever, it's the only the subject of the debate not the people debating it that I'm interested in.
A good doctor, vet or scientist should never have a completely closed mind, in my opinion. There is always more to learn and things that we cannot explain now, but may be able to understand and explain in the future.
I agree, few of them do in my experience. Sometimes, holding to a view which is supported by lot's of evidence gets mistaken for having a closed mind. I've got a very open mind but how much convincing I take directly relates to how much is involved on either side of the argument.
It may be that all alternative therapies can be proven to be a complete waste of time and money (in respect of effect)given that scientific study is now so advanced..if it were THAT easy I am surprised it has not been done. I would also welcome such a study.
We agree
I would welcome studies too, as I said it is because science is so advanced that doing the studies is often seen as pointless but there are studies taking place and no doubt there will be more.
No you misunderstand my motive: I have no interest in winning the debate in fact I learn more when I lose debates. What I'm trying to do is *progress* the debate, to move it on to try untangle some of the arguments. Serious if you watch Newnight or lawyers or scientists at work, there is room for people taking things personally if debates are going to be challenging. My only interest is in learning and understanding, I've no interest in personalities, back biting, insults, whatever, it's the only the subject of the debate not the people debating it that I'm interested in.
A good doctor, vet or scientist should never have a completely closed mind, in my opinion. There is always more to learn and things that we cannot explain now, but may be able to understand and explain in the future.
I agree, few of them do in my experience. Sometimes, holding to a view which is supported by lot's of evidence gets mistaken for having a closed mind. I've got a very open mind but how much convincing I take directly relates to how much is involved on either side of the argument.
It may be that all alternative therapies can be proven to be a complete waste of time and money (in respect of effect)given that scientific study is now so advanced..if it were THAT easy I am surprised it has not been done. I would also welcome such a study.
We agree
fizz-tally
Well-Known Member
i have only used a lady who does massage & she helped fizz alot
puddicat
Well-Known Member
There's lots I'd like to chat about in your post but this bit grabbed my attention -
The Injury Free Horse by Amanda Sutton and if she's good enough to be the physio for the Olympic event team she is good enough for me!!
Amanda Sutton and I found ourselves speaking at the same event once. We had a pretty good discussion actually
The Injury Free Horse by Amanda Sutton and if she's good enough to be the physio for the Olympic event team she is good enough for me!!
Amanda Sutton and I found ourselves speaking at the same event once. We had a pretty good discussion actually
the watcher
Well-Known Member
Revisiting this, as I too enjoy a debate.
The problem as I see it is that this debate is being approached from opposite sides, on one hand you have had the benefit of a good deal of education, I am completely in the dark as to whether you are currently, or have been, a horse owner or rider. On the other side are owners and riders who have not had this training, are not versed in debating and remaining dispassionate, but who firmly believe that the treatment gives a benefit to their horses. Beanyowner is stuck in the middle, dry education tells her one thing, her wish to do the best possible for her horse tells her to try anything that might bring a benefit.
I can't add any more to the debate as I have neither the will not the time to undertake a scientific survey which is possibly the only outcome that would interest those with a more scientific outlook.
In closing though, one question for you. I assume all this training is going to lead to a career in veterinary medicine. Confronted by a client with a horse that is clearly unsound through a hind leg, with muscle wastage across one side of the rump and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip, what treatment and diagnostic options would you recommend, what would the likely cost be of these and would you ever consider referral to any kind of 'back person' or would you dismiss this out of hand because of your scientific beliefs and indeed communicate these beliefs to your client?
The problem as I see it is that this debate is being approached from opposite sides, on one hand you have had the benefit of a good deal of education, I am completely in the dark as to whether you are currently, or have been, a horse owner or rider. On the other side are owners and riders who have not had this training, are not versed in debating and remaining dispassionate, but who firmly believe that the treatment gives a benefit to their horses. Beanyowner is stuck in the middle, dry education tells her one thing, her wish to do the best possible for her horse tells her to try anything that might bring a benefit.
I can't add any more to the debate as I have neither the will not the time to undertake a scientific survey which is possibly the only outcome that would interest those with a more scientific outlook.
In closing though, one question for you. I assume all this training is going to lead to a career in veterinary medicine. Confronted by a client with a horse that is clearly unsound through a hind leg, with muscle wastage across one side of the rump and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip, what treatment and diagnostic options would you recommend, what would the likely cost be of these and would you ever consider referral to any kind of 'back person' or would you dismiss this out of hand because of your scientific beliefs and indeed communicate these beliefs to your client?
Beanyowner
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Beanyowner is stuck in the middle, dry education tells her one thing, her wish to do the best possible for her horse tells her to try anything that might bring a benefit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Watcher...this is true.
[ QUOTE ]
I assume all this training is going to lead to a career in veterinary medicine. Confronted by a client with a horse that is clearly unsound through a hind leg, with muscle wastage across one side of the rump and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip, what treatment and diagnostic options would you recommend, what would the likely cost be of these and would you ever consider referral to any kind of 'back person' or would you dismiss this out of hand because of your scientific beliefs and indeed communicate these beliefs to your client?
[/ QUOTE ]
"and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip" - As the spine is in the middle I am assuming you mean the tuber coxae area (big bone across the top of the pelvis, aka hind quartes!!), if it is showing a pain response to one affected hip only I will assume you mean this area as a pain response in the spinal area would surely affect both hind limbs?!? (as you can tell I am not anywhere near a vet nor do I intend to become one...! but though I would attempt to respond to the question anyway!!) If the horse was showing lamness in one hind limb I would offer nerve blocking up the affected leg (starting at the bottom) to begin to find the source of the pain, as the muscle wastage may be due to the horse not using itself correctly for long period of time however the owner would 'surely' have called a vet if the horse was lame for a significant time. Hopefully this would indicate a general location of pain and then it would be a task of finding the source...whichI will not sport on as I will ramble for AGES!!!
Cost - not the foggiest! Pretty expensive I imagine!
Would I consider referral...I would recommend many different alternative treatment options to the owner yes...just because I have my doubts there are obviously people who claim tehy work...if the owner wants to throw £45 or so for a chance then go for it! No harm in trying!!!
Would I communicate my beliefs...I would say that there is no evidence to prove this treatment works...and say it is completely up to them, however if they want to try and find out the real reason as to why their horse is performing poorly or lame...then give me a shout!!
Just read that back...its slight ramblings but I think you get the general jist!!
Beanyowner is stuck in the middle, dry education tells her one thing, her wish to do the best possible for her horse tells her to try anything that might bring a benefit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Watcher...this is true.
[ QUOTE ]
I assume all this training is going to lead to a career in veterinary medicine. Confronted by a client with a horse that is clearly unsound through a hind leg, with muscle wastage across one side of the rump and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip, what treatment and diagnostic options would you recommend, what would the likely cost be of these and would you ever consider referral to any kind of 'back person' or would you dismiss this out of hand because of your scientific beliefs and indeed communicate these beliefs to your client?
[/ QUOTE ]
"and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip" - As the spine is in the middle I am assuming you mean the tuber coxae area (big bone across the top of the pelvis, aka hind quartes!!), if it is showing a pain response to one affected hip only I will assume you mean this area as a pain response in the spinal area would surely affect both hind limbs?!? (as you can tell I am not anywhere near a vet nor do I intend to become one...! but though I would attempt to respond to the question anyway!!) If the horse was showing lamness in one hind limb I would offer nerve blocking up the affected leg (starting at the bottom) to begin to find the source of the pain, as the muscle wastage may be due to the horse not using itself correctly for long period of time however the owner would 'surely' have called a vet if the horse was lame for a significant time. Hopefully this would indicate a general location of pain and then it would be a task of finding the source...whichI will not sport on as I will ramble for AGES!!!
Cost - not the foggiest! Pretty expensive I imagine!
Would I consider referral...I would recommend many different alternative treatment options to the owner yes...just because I have my doubts there are obviously people who claim tehy work...if the owner wants to throw £45 or so for a chance then go for it! No harm in trying!!!
Would I communicate my beliefs...I would say that there is no evidence to prove this treatment works...and say it is completely up to them, however if they want to try and find out the real reason as to why their horse is performing poorly or lame...then give me a shout!!
Just read that back...its slight ramblings but I think you get the general jist!!
the watcher
Well-Known Member
"and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip" - As the spine is in the middle I am assuming you mean the tuber coxae area (big bone across the top of the pelvis, aka hind quartes!!),
That'll be it - probably! Never was very good at describing the various anatomical bits of the horse..although if I was describing it to somebody else I might say 'behind the saddle area but on the left side' or something along those lines.
Th simple diagnostic methods you have described so far would add up to a fair bit, I imagine, throw in an Xray or MRI, plus potentially the horse being out of work but still costing money because rest always seems to feature in veterinary advice..and suddenly £40 odd is looking very reasonable. Imagine then if you were underinsured for the conventional tests and didn't have the means to follow those up.
The point I am trying to get to, very ineptly, is that alternatives are often far cheaper and potentially less invasive. If a client was looking at having a horse PTS because they simply couldn't afford the conventional diagnostic work, could a vet in all good conscience say that established alternative therapies have no place in treatment?
That'll be it - probably! Never was very good at describing the various anatomical bits of the horse..although if I was describing it to somebody else I might say 'behind the saddle area but on the left side' or something along those lines.
Th simple diagnostic methods you have described so far would add up to a fair bit, I imagine, throw in an Xray or MRI, plus potentially the horse being out of work but still costing money because rest always seems to feature in veterinary advice..and suddenly £40 odd is looking very reasonable. Imagine then if you were underinsured for the conventional tests and didn't have the means to follow those up.
The point I am trying to get to, very ineptly, is that alternatives are often far cheaper and potentially less invasive. If a client was looking at having a horse PTS because they simply couldn't afford the conventional diagnostic work, could a vet in all good conscience say that established alternative therapies have no place in treatment?
Beanyowner
Well-Known Member
It all depends on weighing up the costs...yes...veterinary work IS expensive but it is the ONLY way an owner will find out the true cause of any lamness. I suppose it also comes down to how much the horse is worth as well. I canhonestly say that I had the McTimoney practitioner out to see Benson for this exact reason...I am a student and I cannot really afford veterinary costs at the moment, I would obviously find the money if one was needed but as you said £90 for 2 treatments is far better than the costs of nerve blocks, Xrays etc. I may be a science student but I am a practical one more than an academic one!! Practically, the back man was worth a shot!
Just so happens it has helped Benson for whatever reason...possibly the treatment, possibly the rest given while I was home for xmas. Either way...he is sound again so I don't care!
But for reference...horses cannot have MRI's on their spine...only their limbs and possibly their head. As far as I know there is not a machine big enough to fit a whole horse in!!
But for reference...horses cannot have MRI's on their spine...only their limbs and possibly their head. As far as I know there is not a machine big enough to fit a whole horse in!!
the watcher
Well-Known Member
But for reference...horses cannot have MRI's on their spine...only their limbs and possibly their head. As far as I know there is not a machine big enough to fit a whole horse in!!
I was thinking feet and legs..since this is where you said you would start nerve blocking
Would be interested in puddicat's response though, dragging debate on pure science into the real world
I was thinking feet and legs..since this is where you said you would start nerve blocking
Would be interested in puddicat's response though, dragging debate on pure science into the real world
Beanyowner
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking feet and legs..since this is where you said you would start nerve blocking
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops...
Now I understand!! lol!
Yes where is Puddicat!!!
I was thinking feet and legs..since this is where you said you would start nerve blocking
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops...
Yes where is Puddicat!!!
Shiraz
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
it is the ONLY way an owner will find out the true cause of any lamness
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry - don't know how to do quotes or if I have replied to the wrong person...
I'm sorry to disagree (again
) but... like I said in previous posts we had countless vets and a referal with overnight stays to the Dick Vet for my mare's back/lameness/legs/ whatever the frig they could find!! and it came back all clear - basically it was all in our heads and to ignore the crouching or wear a thicker numnah
We had a physio who came highly recommended out but he couldn't find anything either and just done work on her neck and shoulders
Anyway, like I said on a previous post the McTimmoney Corely lady we got out diagnosed/gave her opinion after seeing my mare stood square, before seeing her move and it all rang true. I was not trying to "make it fit" or grasping at straws, what she said genuinely fitted the bill...so to speak.
After seeing my mare move lameness in the hind leg was also diagnosed and this had been missed by myself (couldn't feel it when riding and she went squint which didn't help), vets, phsyio and instructress.
Much the same as you can get vets & farriers you don't like/think much off I'm sure you can get alternative therapy peeps like that too so I'm not saying that all McT-C are a god send but in my case she definitely was
I can only echo what Scarlett has said and that is, it has worked for my horse and made her pain free and improved everything about her (although we are still a work in progress, not there yet) and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me
it is the ONLY way an owner will find out the true cause of any lamness
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry - don't know how to do quotes or if I have replied to the wrong person...
I'm sorry to disagree (again
We had a physio who came highly recommended out but he couldn't find anything either and just done work on her neck and shoulders
Anyway, like I said on a previous post the McTimmoney Corely lady we got out diagnosed/gave her opinion after seeing my mare stood square, before seeing her move and it all rang true. I was not trying to "make it fit" or grasping at straws, what she said genuinely fitted the bill...so to speak.
After seeing my mare move lameness in the hind leg was also diagnosed and this had been missed by myself (couldn't feel it when riding and she went squint which didn't help), vets, phsyio and instructress.
Much the same as you can get vets & farriers you don't like/think much off I'm sure you can get alternative therapy peeps like that too so I'm not saying that all McT-C are a god send but in my case she definitely was
I can only echo what Scarlett has said and that is, it has worked for my horse and made her pain free and improved everything about her (although we are still a work in progress, not there yet) and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me
Beanyowner
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
can only echo what Scarlett has said and that is, it has worked for my horse and made her pain free and improved everything about her (although we are still a work in progress, not there yet) and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me
[/ QUOTE ]
...and in my book (with my non sciencey head on) that is all that matters!!
can only echo what Scarlett has said and that is, it has worked for my horse and made her pain free and improved everything about her (although we are still a work in progress, not there yet) and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me
[/ QUOTE ]
...and in my book (with my non sciencey head on) that is all that matters!!
verapig
New User
I would be interested to hear what puddycat thinks of Shiraz's experience.
puddicat
Well-Known Member
Just to round off - a reply to the_watchers question
First I think you summarised the position pretty well. Dy definition it *is*only the outcome of a scientific study would provide evidence for a scientist. Most scientists I've come across are interested in anecdote but as the basis for further investigation, not belief. Scientists are professional doubters, the big discoveries in science have inevitably started with questioning things that often seemed obvious to most people.
The answer to your question is this. There are some practices that come under the heading of physiotherapy that obviously work. Experienced horsemen and women have known about them for ages and I think physiotherapists have added to this knowledge although I could say whether the additions are significant or not. So I think it makes sense to involve an experienced horseperson or a physiotherapist if a condition suggests that it may benefit from that aspect of their work. I'm talking basically about the long term development of muscle mass using targetted exercise.
There are other practices that one could generously describe as dubious from a scientific perspective but are probably harmless. Given that I can't remember hearing a story about a therapist making a horse worse (although there must be) I don't see why one shouldn't say to anyone that asks that you can try it if you want but don't expect a result.
Finally there are things that one hears that are just nonsense. I think would be the duty of someone who knew that something was pointless from a scientific perspective to give the benefit of her/his insight to anyone who asked.
First I think you summarised the position pretty well. Dy definition it *is*only the outcome of a scientific study would provide evidence for a scientist. Most scientists I've come across are interested in anecdote but as the basis for further investigation, not belief. Scientists are professional doubters, the big discoveries in science have inevitably started with questioning things that often seemed obvious to most people.
The answer to your question is this. There are some practices that come under the heading of physiotherapy that obviously work. Experienced horsemen and women have known about them for ages and I think physiotherapists have added to this knowledge although I could say whether the additions are significant or not. So I think it makes sense to involve an experienced horseperson or a physiotherapist if a condition suggests that it may benefit from that aspect of their work. I'm talking basically about the long term development of muscle mass using targetted exercise.
There are other practices that one could generously describe as dubious from a scientific perspective but are probably harmless. Given that I can't remember hearing a story about a therapist making a horse worse (although there must be) I don't see why one shouldn't say to anyone that asks that you can try it if you want but don't expect a result.
Finally there are things that one hears that are just nonsense. I think would be the duty of someone who knew that something was pointless from a scientific perspective to give the benefit of her/his insight to anyone who asked.