DEBATE - Equine Chiropractors/Physio's etc

[dieseldog]

The last lady we used was very good. She said it was impossible for a horse to put its back out as the muscles holding the back in place are just too strong to allow any movement and a horse spine just isn't the same as a humans. Also asymetrical pelvis is usually caused by a problem with the horses hocks.

She did a lot on Spot who is conformationally challenged, but our other 2 had nothing wrong with them.

 

[Beanyowner]

Hi hollyjz...

Thankyou for volonteering yourself for questions!! I have a few...

So I have heard McTimony practitioners use the term 'misaligned'...what does this mean exactly?!?
How much variation is there in a vertebrae misalignment? Are we talking milimetres here?!?!?!
What kind of impact can this sort of tiny variation have on a horses locomotor system?

I am currently a 3rd year Equine Science student and have had talks from McTimony and other equine therapists...I am one of those annoying people who asks lots of questions at all the trade shows!

I would like to get your 'slant' on things!!

Thanks.

 

[puddicat]

can I add a bit to that:

How do you feel the vertebral mis-alignment - is it through lateral displacement of a dorsal spinous process in the thorax/lumbar regions ?

If so the muscles stabilising the vertebrae against rotation (transversospinalis) are very small, not superficial and well buried so presumably you can have no effect on them?

Again, if so, can you give me an example of a muscle that can be manipulated that would have an effect on vertebral allignment?

 

[sojeph]

I've no idea because in 20+ yrs in horses I've never used one or even needed to consider it. Maybe I'm just lucky?

 

[hollyzippo]

Puddicat- no worries any Q's fine, will do my best!!

Beanyowner- Misaligned, as far as I see it, is when you are looking at uneven forces caused by the muscle spasms. Vertebae are not wonky along the back like they are in people (when they can form an S shape). Pelvis' can be spasms tightly to one side or another- be it as a result of another lameness issue or a fall. Often I see them from bad riding- ie one side is made stronger by the rider having a stronger rein.
Same goes with atlas alignment- again one muscle is stronger. nearly all of them I see if its assymmetric it is to the right- right handed riders (which most of us are guilty of if right handed) hang on that side and build the muscle up as even the best schooled horse learns to resist a very strong hand!!

As for measurements- no one knows for certain as no money to invest in study but believes to be < 1 mm, certainly not much more as otherwise would cause impingement on spinal cord and possible paralysis- this is rare. Wobblers is due to this sort of impingement not usually through rotation of the vertebrae.
Hence a fractional mm of movement as is usually seen is believed to be corrected by preventing the muscle pull/spasm on the effected vertebrae. Higher degrees of movement such as in a high speed fall usually result in damage to the spinal cord as described above.

Sorry for long post everyone! hope this helps !

 

[the watcher]

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I have used a chiro and a physio for my horses in the past and I could see results so I know it works.

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Im not meaning to be rude but that is like saying "I went to a fortune teller and something she told me came true so I know she can see the future"

Often what we see, choose to see and visually interpret differ enormously to what is there. Yes it is very likely there was an improvement in your horse but how do you know that they didn't simply "work out a knot"?

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I agree, it may well have been that simple..but it was 'knot working' that I am neither knowledgable or qualified to accomplish, and restored a horse that had been carrying her nearside hind to more even working..with some simple exercises given to me to keep that particlar limb/joint moving freely.

We all have different areas of expertise, I am happy to have a 'back person' out that I trust to relieve pain and improve my horse, because this is not a subject I have studied...if they turn up with crystals and candles I will take a different view.

 

[samp]

The atlas and axis are 2 connecting joints in the poll. The should be straight, however if you feel your horses poll you will often feel one higher than the other.

Pelvis - if you stnad behind you'd she 1 stifle etc higher than the otherside. The horse would look lopsidded. My mare has always had it and the vet feels was born like it

 

[hollyzippo]

Its mostly through pressure on the dorsal spinous process and whether or not this causes a muscle flicker or pain response.

By causing a reverberation down the vertebrae (from the dorsal process) this spreads through the transverse process' too. Consequently large, often highly stressed muscles such as the latissimus dorsi and epaxial have spasms relieved.

 

[puddicat]

Sorry for long post everyone! hope this helps

no worries its a short post compared to some of mine!

I'm wondering now whether there is ambiguity in how you define spasm. I agree with the examples you give in the neck and lumbar region but uneven work would alter the stretched and possibly resting length of muscle irrespective of whether there was spasm. I think this is pretty common but at one time people would just take it that they should work their horse evenly, indeed this is still the answer, manipulation won't help because lengthening muscle needs sustained loading of a magnitude appropriate to its size - for a horse this is pretty bit.

I'd need a lot of convincing that you can feel movement of a fraction of a mm! The vertebrae do move several mm during locomotion, this has been measured several times and if you PubMed "Horse spine kinematics" you'll get the abstracts.

 

[squirtlysmum]

Like everything in life you get good and bad in all sphere's, my horse has been treated by some thoroughly mediocre 'back people' who have not listened to a word I've said to my current excellent Physio who most definatly makes a difference and listens to me.
As for 'can horses put their backs out' - as long as they have muscles and bones be sure something can go wrong!!

 

[hollyzippo]

Yes, they dont move several mm but fractions as I stated above. And I am not claiming to feel movement of the vertebrae, again as I stated, I am looking for discomfort when pressure is applied.

I think the thing is, as you described, consistant, symmetrical working is the ideal, not the usual.

If a horse is treated following a problem or 6-12 monthly for a check up I always give exercises to establish a better/more muscle build up. This is what prevents a problem from re-occuring.

If you need convincing that is fine, thats not part of my job! I am just informing you of what I have learnt following 5 years of study. What you choose for your own horse is up to each owner once they have been given the facts. I am happy that the level of vet referrals I receive is proportionate to the success of the treatment.

 

[puddicat]

This is where is starts to get hazy for me and I think great as HHO is, its the sort of thing that need a good evening discussing in the pub to sort out rather than posts. I don't think you answered my question but this might be the answer:

By causing a reverberation down the vertebrae (from the dorsal process) this spreads through the transverse process' too. Consequently large, often highly stressed muscles such as the latissimus dorsi and epaxial have spasms relieved.

so three points then:

1) I suppose this could depend on how you define reverberation but the usual definition is a series of echoes. If the image you have is sending a mechanical stimulus through the vertebrae and the vertebrae reverberates that's wrong on all counts and can be shown quite easily. There are 3 reasons (1) a big enough mechaical stimulus can't be generated unless you hit the horse with a crow bar (2) bone is very stiff so mechanical waves propogate very fast (3) bone and muscle have a lot of internal damping. (2) and (3) together mean that energy from a mechanical stimulus, were it sufficient to propagate down the dorsal spinous process would be dissipated within. milliseconds. Any sense of a 'reverberation' due to sympathetic movement in responce to manipulation would most likely arise from a spinal arc refles in response to pressure. There is pathway for this along the dorsal and ventral midline of the horse and its well known.

2) Unless I'm missing something its impossible to know if spasms are present or have been relieved in the deep muscles wherever they are ???

3) that word 'consequently'! there isn't anything in the first part of the sentence that has been shown to have the consequence of relieving spasm but it has been looked for in many research studies. The aponeurosis of L. dorsi is spread along several vertebrae so the likelihood of transmitting a mechanical stimulus to an apprechiable part of it through localised stimulation of the back is effectively zero isn't it ??? That's not to say there isn't a mechanism somewhere, but it's not that one!

sorry - its great to get into a discussion about these things but this is what happens!

 

[hollyzippo]

Interesting points, I agree that HHO isnt ideal as I am supposed to be at work and not defending the merits of my profession but hey!

With the limited money put into veterinary research as a whole, surely spinal adjustments as with many other veterinary treatments are only up for debate due to the fact that the success is measured purely by the horse's response.

Except where scanning/MRI/x ray etc can confirm the success, unfortunately for all of us the success of many treatments has to be assumed. And unfortunately x rays are expensive so cant be used in all cases. Eg, pus in the foot. We assume that if the horse gets sounder after poultice etc, thats it. Do we KNOW there isnt a tract going through a foot structure such as pedal bone? No, but if horse goes sound we assume its ok.

So if back pain is relieved by treatment as described, we (as a profession) assume its from release of muscle spasm or removal of painful stimuli etc.

If someone wants to volunteer more money to put force transducers etc into muscles then treatment may be able to be improved even further to be completely targeted to a particular site. Otherwise, a generalised treatment and further treatment on particular areas as needed is the only alternative to drug relief that I can see.

 

[puddicat]

If you need convincing that is fine, thats not part of my job!

Not really I'm just curious whether there is any evidence of something going on that hasn't got a perfectly rational and boring alternative explanation. The fact you get vet referrals is significant because I agree it does mean you are perceived to be having a beneficial effect. One could argue that's all that matters.

 

[shadowboy]

I am of a similar opinion, i was told once that it is a hell of a job to put a pelvis back in line by one of the UK best lameness specialists, yet my chiro seemed to be able to do it by just pulling his leg up and forward. Impressive hmmm? I never know what to think with these things. And since she has been there has been no improvement in my horses behaviour/work. Also i was once told by a so called physio that i needed to burn my horses stifels with high % iodine in order to draw the blood to heal them!!!!!!!! there proved to be nothing wrong with them anyway (as revealed by a scintigraphy scan) all i ended up with was horse who is touchy with his stifles.

 

[CLS.]

Went over to see my friends horses being worked on by a physio on Sunday and it was marvellous to watch! Lots of yawning and licking and sleepy faces throughout the sessions. Everything she said made lots of sense and the horses thoroughly enjoyed it. She also used a magnetic pulse/massage rug on one of them which was also much appreciated and a hand held lazer/pulse machine for some areas the rug didnt cover. I was most impressed and her recommendations are being followed up. It was more of an full MOT than a massage incredibly thorough.

 

[hollyzippo]

Think you may have had therapists talking about different things Shadowmonkey. To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult- this is what happens in nasty racing falls/fractures and it actually moves.
Other practitioner probably referring to assymmetry from muscle build up- adjustments can relieve muscle tension not move the structure. (unless ur king kong maybe!?!)

As for iodine- never heard of that one! Doesnt sound like something many neddies would put up with!! Was this an older practitioner? Perhaps an old fashioned pre- laser invention technique??!

 

[puddicat]

Quote: Was this an older practitioner?

Yeah was it someone born in about 1730 ?

 

[puddicat]

Quote: To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult.

So eloquently put and so beatifully understated....

...but it leaves room for misinterpretation so let me have a go:

NO YOU CAN'T REPLACE OR REALIGN THE SODDING PELVIS BY PULLING THE HORSES LEG. NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, NOT EVEN A VERY VERY LITTLE BIT. There is absolutely no exception to this under any circomstances. It is impossible, not very difficult, IMPOSSIBLE that means it CAN'T BE DONE by anybody, It doesn't matter who they are, it could be the Archbishop of Cantebury but the pelvis will stay right where it was before he gave it the holy leg pulling.

there, I think that's reasonably clear

 

[Lucy_Ally]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote: To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult.

So eloquently put and so beatifully understated....

...but it leaves room for misinterpretation so let me have a go:

NO YOU CAN'T REPLACE OR REALIGN THE SODDING PELVIS BY PULLING THE HORSES LEG. NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, NOT EVEN A VERY VERY LITTLE BIT. There is absolutely no exception to this under any circomstances. It is impossible, not very difficult, IMPOSSIBLE that means it CAN'T BE DONE by anybody, It doesn't matter who they are, it could be the Archbishop of Cantebury but the pelvis will stay right where it was before he gave it the holy leg pulling.

there, I think that's reasonably clear

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PMSL!

What not even a tiny little incy wincy bit?!

 

[hollyzippo]

I think saying something can't be done is enough for the average adult to understand the point.
I know that some people consider themselves to be (in their own opinion) above average intelligence, however, there isn't any need to patronise other readers. I think it was clear enough in my original post.

 

[Sooty]

I don't believe that chiropractic has any sort of lasting result, and bones cannot be manipulated. If a horse's vertebra was 'out', the horse would be in agony and probably unable to move. Funnily enough I was discussing this with the vet recently, and he takes a very dim view of it.

 

[puddicat]

Quote: I think saying something can't be done is enough for the average adult to understand the point

Yes, obviously, so one has to decide whether I'm really having a rant or just being daft. And the answer is... just being daft as usual, dry humour admittedly but the clues are (1) that it's so completely over the top as you said and (2) the smiling emoticon.

I think it was clear enough in my original post.

Not in my view, "beyond difficult" is ambiguous, it could mean 'very difficult', 'extremely difficult' or 'impossible'. It just adds to the general confusion about the subject and think it's good to be as clear as possible about things that are known beyond all reasonable doubt. Sorry if you felt patronised, the compliment was genuine, as I said previously I like the way you use language carefully and 'beyond difficult' is a nice phrase. I don't think you have to be intelligent to patronise people, I'm quite stupid but I still manage it.

 

[Sooty]

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I've no idea because in 20+ yrs in horses I've never used one or even needed to consider it. Maybe I'm just lucky?

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This may make me unpopular, but I think nowadays the horse world, like so many other areas, has become a popular target for businesses. The idea of seasonal trends in clothes for horses and riders is relatively new, and all designed to relieve horse owners of their money. So the same goes for a horse's health. Years ago, if a horse wasn't 'right', it would be rested, and if still not right, the vet would be called. Nowadays people have a larger pool of equine professional to choose from than just a farrier and a vet, and caring owners are keen to try something that may help their horse. If a horse has a muscle in spasm it will right itself if given time. I am not sure if you are lucky, maybe just sensible!

 

[Law]

I'm of this opinion too- i think if muscles cause problems around vertebra (as it seems to be the case) then fixing it will not have a lasting effect. Hence I think it is worth having it checked every year along with teeth.

I think that there is a great lack of clarity concerning what is actually being carried out by the chiro. All the things that I have been told have been mostly impossible or require divine intervention or a winch/pulley/crane. It appears that if the chiro had been a bit clearer then I would not have been putting forward such a preposterous notion about vertebra being 'misaligned' or 'out'. It makes a lot more sense now to me having heard what 'actually' happens.

 

[puddicat]

I agree very much with this. Its not that long ago that horses didn't have bad backs becuase it never occured to anybody. If horses looked muscle sore you rested them or if they were uneven you worked them properly. If I ask myself "did I and all the people I know miss the signs of back pain in horses for years before a whole new profession started pointing it out to us", the answer has to be 'no'!

 

[hollyzippo]

Glad it makes more sense to you Lau. I try and talk through what I am doing with all my clients and answer as many questions as they want to ask. I also agree that yearly checks are best.

Sooty- Rest or correct working after a muscle problem may put a condition right, but treatment is often recommeded- as by a vet and then correct work to follow. As above, yearly checks along with teeth are ideal and work on prevention rather than cure - much better all round I think

 

[hollyzippo]

I think the thing that nobody has mentioned here is that horses were not put on this planet to be ridden! And certainly not in a 20 x 40 arena or over 4 foot hedges at speed. Also not meant to do grids, driving, polo etc etc . So really very tolerant of what we throw at them!

So to me it makes perfect sense that putting usually between 8-15 stone plus a saddle on them and expecting them to do any of the above is sure to create problems.

How they are resolved is obviously a hot topic and wont be ageed on- rest would be fine in an ideal world. Racehorse trainers tho, for eg want them to race 1 week after a fall and they need to be in training for the few days prior to next race. So (although an extreme and rather frustrating eg!) rest isnt an option. They race either way, in pain or not- I opt for the not option and try to persuade them that the horse would be happier long term (and better in the future races!) if it had chance to be put right!

Surely everyone has to agree that the forces put on a horse are going to cause spinal problems in nearly all of them at one time?!

 

[vicijp]

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I've no idea because in 20+ yrs in horses I've never used one or even needed to consider it. Maybe I'm just lucky?

[/ QUOTE ]

This may make me unpopular, but I think nowadays the horse world, like so many other areas, has become a popular target for businesses. The idea of seasonal trends in clothes for horses and riders is relatively new, and all designed to relieve horse owners of their money. So the same goes for a horse's health. Years ago, if a horse wasn't 'right', it would be rested, and if still not right, the vet would be called. Nowadays people have a larger pool of equine professional to choose from than just a farrier and a vet, and caring owners are keen to try something that may help their horse. If a horse has a muscle in spasm it will right itself if given time. I am not sure if you are lucky, maybe just sensible!

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I dont know about the difference between then and now. I think just a lot more people are more knowledgable than they were a few years ago (or think they are - 'a little bit of knowledge is worse than having none').
My dad has used the same Physio for 20 years. Fully qualified and doesnt talk crap and charge the earth.

 

[Dovorian]

The human version didn't work for me either - complete waste of money but at the time I had a bad back and was on the 'desperate' trail!