DEBATE - Equine Chiropractors/Physio's etc

[puddicat]

So to me it makes perfect sense that putting usually between 8-15 stone plus a saddle on them and expecting them to do any of the above is sure to create problems.

Well it does superficially but not if you consider it more carefully. On has to be careful about using the fact that horse's weren't created/evolved to carry riders to infer anything about the detrimental effect of the rider. It does not necessarily follow that injury will result. Neither does it necessarily follow that jumpin 4' hedges, polo, grids etc cause the rider to apply forces that are any more detrimental that those in sitting trot (say). Animals are able to do all sorts of things that they weren't evolved for without negative consequences and I think maybe you've got to understand the relevant body systems in enough detail to know how it is possible before you can predict whether it may be detrimental.

Surely everyone has to agree that the forces put on a horse are going to cause spinal problems in nearly all of them at one time?!

Nope, I don't agree. You're right in the sense that if you apply enough force to anything it will break - but that's not very helpful because it's a self evident truth! If you narrow it down to the forces that act on the spine as a result of normal reacreational riding activity then you have to know what those forces are and the strength of the spine to be able to say whether they are likely to cause damage. Otherwise you're just guessing!

 

[puddicat]

Quote: My dad has used the same Physio for 20 years

I'm presuming your dad wasn't a horse tho'

 

[vicijp]

No, but has 50 plus of them at any one time.

 

[puddicat]

Oh I see - he used the physio on the horses, sorry I thought it was for him!!

 

[vicijp]

 

[catembi]

I was sceptical too, until I had Richard Maxwell work on my horse. He knew without me telling him (from examining him) that Cat found it v hard to canter left without outside bend. A lot of pulling & pushing followed...& the next time I tried a circle in left canter, I asked for inside bend...& got it. My riding didn't improve 500% in a couple of days, nor did his schooling. It was as if an obstacle was suddenly removed. Not sure of all the science or anatomy behind this, but it certainly worked breathtakingly well.

 

[Beanyowner]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote: To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult.

So eloquently put and so beatifully understated....

...but it leaves room for misinterpretation so let me have a go:

NO YOU CAN'T REPLACE OR REALIGN THE SODDING PELVIS BY PULLING THE HORSES LEG. NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, NOT EVEN A VERY VERY LITTLE BIT. There is absolutely no exception to this under any circomstances. It is impossible, not very difficult, IMPOSSIBLE that means it CAN'T BE DONE by anybody, It doesn't matter who they are, it could be the Archbishop of Cantebury but the pelvis will stay right where it was before he gave it the holy leg pulling.

there, I think that's reasonably clear

[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL!!! I think thats about clear enough PC!!

 

[Beanyowner]

Oh and here we go then...so after 2 lots of 'treatment' (term is being used loosly)...Beany is now sound and coming back into work...the abck end seems to 'feel' more connected to the front end again and I am obviously happy with the results.

So...............is this because of the 'treatment' that has been done on his back or the rest time he had while I went away for the christmas holidays...hmmm...well I guess I will never know, perhaps it may be a conjunction of the two...not the 'clicking abck into place bit' but maybe because of the massage that was done on his superficial muscles while the treatment was taking place...?!?!? Who knows!

I am however inclined to think it was because of the rest...but perhaps I was being one of those 'owners' rather than the science student, and needed to be told what to do for silly amounts of money! Ahh well...

 

[puddicat]

I'm glad the ned has got better, of of course he would do that anyway.

I'm interested in your comment because its very true that people do equine science and they own horses and there's a sort of invisible bounday between the two things. There shouldn't be. The whole point is an applied science degree should help you know what to do with your horse. In this case for exampe, the scientific argument would be to leave the neddy alone and it will get better and you will be £*** better off. That's an example of how education gives you a better life outcome because you could use that money for other things such as chocolate.

 

[Beanyowner]

I think I have learnt a lesson from this little escapade...must trust my thoughts a little more and not turn into the 'owner' when things go wrong...actually apply what I am spending all this money to learn!!!!

But yes I totally agree on your comment...I think it is a common fault of Equine Science students, I still find it amazing how I come across people on my course who can't put on a poultice let alone think about whether a back man would work or not!!!!

Problem is...Hartpury promotes equine chiro's/physios etc within their lectures...and do not even cover the aspect of its affects on the equine back and if it actually works!

 

[LEC]

I am the most sceptical person on earth about physios but I noticed a real difference in my horse one day - he was so stiff in his left rein and this was over night. I felt it was shoulder/neck. Rang a few people and had some recommendations and had a lady come out she said he was a bit stiff with a tight muscle which she worked on and said he was absolutely fine and would have very few problems. If he did have a problem he would tell me. I think this relieved some of my sceptisism.

 

[puddicat]

I think trusting in your own judgement putting scientific knowledge into practice is a very difficult thing to do and I could go on about it for ages but I won't

I think also you've hit the nail right on the head when you say about getting lectures in chiropracty (for eg). It totally defeats the object of he degree - the object of any science degree is to try to get people to view the world through scientific eyes. So you can invite therapists in, but the phrase 'throwing christians to the lions' comes to mind. IF they've done their biochemistry and physiology homework, a final year science student should be able to dismiss most of the things therapists say as nonsense immediately on the basis of good evidence. If all you're asked to do is make notes on the therapists lecture and believe it, that is totally going against what it is to be a scientist.

 

[puddicat]

Yes this is what many people say and it's why the use of therapists propagates, people believe it, and most of all they are satisfied with the results so I have to say best of luck to them!

There are however lots of problems with the sort of observation you on your physio experience. I'm happy to go through them but I think I've bored people on HHO enough with them previously perhaps not.

The best illusions are breathtakingly convincing and very difficult to deconstruct. I'd recommend anyone to watch Derren Brown and try to explain how achieves the seemingly impossibly things he does. There is very definitely illusion in horse therapy, you can deconstuct it into the same elements that con merchants and magicians the world over use. What interests me is whether there is also something genuine going on and if so what.

Its hard to work out because most of the therapists I've met believe what they do i.e. they are fooled by their own illusion - this is a good thing I suppose because otherwise they would be being deceitful. It is also true that when you start stripping away the illusion and try to get objective about what they re doing, they run away very fast indeed. And why not! Who would want the practice from which they earn a a living shown to be pointless if there is a ready market for it?

 

[henryhorn]

Over the years we have tried many, Tex Gamble came out to a mare who previously had always got up after lying down by sitting up like a dog. He said her pelvis was not straight, virtually lifted her up and manipulatedher and she was able to get up normally after that. He is an unqualified chap but worked miracles on all four he saw for us. None ever had the problems re-occur.
We have had qalified physios who were worse than useless, some are great, but the best one of all hs been McTimoney, not only did she fix the horses but the dog too, it suddenly lost about 5 years in terms of mobility and energy!
Our own vet specialises in backs and is good, but would call in our McT person first.

 

[hollyzippo]

Thanks Henryhorn.... I quite agree

I speak to clients every week who say this. Seems unlikely to me that all of us are deluding ourselves with wanting to believe its worked/the animal is better. (Mostly equine but also dogs).

Glad you are happy with the results and horses/dog is now better

 

[the watcher]

I stayed out of this one for a while because quite frankly I was very cross at the conceit of anybody suggesting that if you are not an equine science student or similar you are clearly a lemming who is deluding themselves as to the value of alternative treatment.

I have used chiropractors and physios for 20 years or so. I am sufficiently educated to see when a horse is using itself properly and when it is not. I have seen horses give massive sighs and relax during treatment when they have previously been permanently tense through muscles. I am not naive enough to believe that major skeletal shifts are taking place, and fully accept that 'unevenness' is most likely to be inbalance in muscles.

As I said before, these are people who have studied for years and are qualified in a way I am not..and I can see the positive outcome of their work..to suggest it is all smoke and mirrors is not a debate, it is insulting to fellow professionals IMO

 

[hollyzippo]

Well said

 

[Beanyowner]

[ QUOTE ]
I stayed out of this one for a while because quite frankly I was very cross at the conceit of anybody suggesting that if you are not an equine science student or similar you are clearly a lemming who is deluding themselves as to the value of alternative treatment.



[/ QUOTE ]

That is not what is being implied at all...I was just asking what everyones thought were on the subject as there are grey areas for me...and as I am an equine science student and suppose to be learning this stuff, some of it didn't seem to add up in my head.
Puddicat's comments were just advising me on my error to not put the knowledge I had into practice more. It is true that there are some very knowledgable horse owners with no qualifications....but there are some really stupid ones as well who will believe anything as long as it is packaged nicely...and that applies to supplements, feeds, gadgets as well...not just practitioners!

 

[hussar]

(Using QR) I'm coming to this one very late, but I've used an equine physio on my two horses every six weeks for the past 4 years. She's very open and honest about what she can and can't do; where she is invaluable is spotting muscle irregularities that highlight an underlying problem. Eg, she noticed a week before a foot abscess erupted that the shoulder muscles of that leg were very tense although there was no discernible lameness.

She would never claim to be able to manipulate/adjust anything skeletal - it's all to do with muscle, as others have said.

The horses love her working with them and usually either go to sleep or mutually groom her!

 

[Emily99]

I haven't read all the posts... although the one's i have are really interesting

it's nice to see an 'insiders' view!

My physio is based with one of my trainers (They run a sport horse breeding stud) as well as holding massage, physio and rehab clinics and lectures. My old mare wasn't quite right at a clinic i was at, physio was on the yard and came to watch me work her to see if she could see anything as she was there. She had a look at her, and found she was tight on side of her back which was affected the movement of the opposite fore. We'd recently had a fall XC which tied in to the same side. (Vet had been out etc) She treated her.. and refused to take money for it.

We've taken a few horses back for other reasons, one for a check up where she found nothing wrong so charged a tenner, and others where she's done normal massage, electo accupuncture etc and we'ver never been charged more then £30. And each time whichever horse has come back into work a day or two after and each time theres been an improvement.

 

[dressagespain]

Interesting debate!! So here is my 2 pences worth!!

I have used a chiropractor in the UK (can't find one out here) and was pleased with the result. She also helped a mare on the same yard and the owner was equally pleased with the result.

In Spain, I have used and continue to use 2 things in conjunction - my physio woman and a magnetic rug. I must say with great success and the horses love it. The 2 both help to relax the muscles on the horses and allow them to work much more freely. I also add a good quality glucosamin supplement to the feeds.

I have seen an equine shiatsu person in action and was quite disappionted but i must say i don't know much about human ones so maybe it was just the person. SHe didn't seem overly knowledgeable about horses and didn't do anything I couldn't have done myself.

I do think alternative therapies have a place in the horse world but it depends entirely on the individual case. Don't dismiss it before you have tried it!!

 

[puddicat]

I stayed out of this one for a while because quite frankly I was very cross at the conceit of anybody suggesting that if you are not an equine science student or similar you are clearly a lemming who is deluding themselves as to the value of alternative treatment.

If you read what I've said carefully you'll discover I was questioning 'physiologcal effect' not 'value' and I've said if people think it works, it has a value and I have no problem or particular interest in that. When it comes to 'effect', if you have not studied science it is easy to be deluded (end of story). Not only is this idea fundamental to our understanding of the physical world it is rooted in centuries of phylosophy and supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence from all sorts of directions. The mistake I make is to be blatant about it, which might have its down side but the thread has >700 hits and 80 posts so it's not a complete conversation killer.

to suggest it is all smoke and mirrors is not a debate, it is insulting to fellow professionals

Well OK you miss the subtlety of what I said but let's suppose it is largely 'smoke and mirrors'. Let's suppose that after you've had a degree level education in science you can see the smoke and mirrors and explain simply and clearly how they work to create an illusion. You've learnt a belief system which leaves you no option to dismiss some actions of therapists as nonsensical. What are you supposed to do?

There are few absolutes in life and not for a moment have I suggested there are absolutes here. You will notice that I am interested in the *amount* of illusion, not that it is 100%. I accept that some practicioners may produce some measureable physiological benefit but I'm not sure what it is and it certainly isn't many of the things they claim it is. So perhaps it is you that is trivialising the debate but misinterpreting what I've said for an absolutist position and mistaking rational but challenging debate for conceit and insult. Blimey, when was the last time you heard a political interview, I'm a pussycat compared to Paxman!

 

[the watcher]

'If you read what I've said carefully you'll discover I was questioning 'physiologcal effect' not 'value' and I've said if people think it works, it has a value and I have no problem or particular interest in that''

I think the above is just semantics, and I do believe that there is a physiological effect. I am not and never have been a biology student..my science interest and work application has been more physics based, so I think I can grasp smoke and mirrors.

Whilst historically there have been some outstanding individuals, in general medicine (including veterinary) has come on a long way in the last two hundred years or so. Back then you might have been arguing with equal conviction for the application of leeches.

Science is not static, so maybe we have to wait for conventional treatment to catch up with some of the alternatives before you will be persuaded

 

[Shiraz]

As you can see from my login I registered on H&H in 2004 - all I found was nastiness, back biting and b'tching...hence I haven't been back much since. Anyone who happened to have a different opinion from the masses was called a "troll", it's so good to see that it is still going on... I have since found a great helpful forum where people offer support and advice - here could learn a lot from it! Now I've got that off my chest..back to this thread.

I read the posts last night and can't explain how much they angered me, I was trying not to stoop to this level but I just have to get my 2p out.

How dare you insult these professional people, they didn't get their qualifications out of a ceral packet but instead studied (theory & practical) and EARNED it.

I use a McTimmoney-Corely (Spinal Therapist) lady (you can't call yourself a Chiropracter unless you actually are a human one - much the same as the whole dentist situation) and she has been brilliant.

When my mum bought my mare nearly 9yrs ago she (the horse) was crouching when people were getting on. We never mounted from the ground and went through the whole "cold backed" routine and then got vets out. Several vets later and still no diagnosis, she was then referred to the Dick Vet and kept in and they never found anything. She's had all her saddles custom made but they still move to the right. We got highly recommended physios out and they all found nothing.

By chance a lady on my yard is training to be an Equine Body Worker (sports massage) so she and her friend from the course came to use my horse as a case study. It turned out that her friend was a McTimmoney Corely practicioner. She immediately diagnosed a rotated pelvis, tilt to the right and then muscle wastage on the side of the tilt and over developed on the left side.

How did I know she was right? Simple, and you can try this too, she stood behind my horse and put a hand on the points of her hip and drew a straight line up to her spine - where her right had was several inches in front of her left hand. The same happened when hands are ran from the point of the hip to the seatbone - this also was uneven. As soon as it was pointed out it became the most obvious thing in the world but it had been missed by vets and all sorts that had been out to see her over the years.

McTimmoney-Corely never claimed to manipulate the spine/bones but the muscles. The manipulation is the release of the muscles that are holding the vertibrae/pelvis etc. How do I know it has worked? Because afterwards when the point of hip to spine test was done again - when you ran your hands up they met square in the middle. No smoke & mirrors and no it's not like going to see a fortune teller!!

My horse has since has massages - they also work. How do I know? Because the incorrect muscle behind the saddle -that my horse had build up from moving awkwardly to compensate for her rotated pelvis - disappeared to the eye after the first session and was gone to the touch after the second and remains gone to this day.

I now get the McTimmoney lady out every 6wks. On her last couple of visits she has lifted up my horses hip by moving her leg and it has made a visible difference...again she never claimed to be manipulating or moving bones.

Like I think it was Law or The Watcher that posted (apologies if wrong) that they wished they knew more about it to offer more support and I am in that same boat. Since the first visit I have had I went on the net and have found out everything I can about it but I am sure there are many others who can explain it more elquently than I.

You don't have to be an Equine Science student ... the books & people that they learn from are accessable to all. If anyone is interested I can recommend (recommend to me by the massage lady) The Injury Free Horse by Amanda Sutton and if she's good enough to be the physio for the Olympic event team she is good enough for me!!

I don't think this is a "fad" and people are cashing in on the horse world. I think people are learning more and making huge advances to help our equine friends. Speak to anyone at the top of their game (Pippa Funnell, Tim Stockdale,etc) and they will openly admit to having regular physio sessions for their horses (and themselves!).

Ditto Ann82's comments re the pole work. Raised at one end is an excellent exercise and makes a huge difference and improvement to your horse.

Thanks to Hollyjz for taking the time out to explain your work and I too find it shocking that you have to almost defend yourself.

As to the comment about having horses for 20yrs and never having their backs checked... maybe they would have benefited from it? How many times have they felt "not quite right", stiff going out of the stable in the morning or stepping only slightly short for example? Just because you never got it done doesn't mean it was never needed. I can remember back in the olden days when if a saddle didn't fit you bunged another numnah under it or tightened the girth...now we all know how bad that is and how saddles should be checked at least every 6mths so surely the same advancements could/can be/have been made in regards to equine backs and should be taken advantage of and grasped with both hands?

I don't think standing in the stable or being on rest would fully heal a horse and/or resolved the root of the problem. Much the same if you pulled a muscle running and had a week in bed you would be stiff when you went back out again at least or if you felt better would would soon know about it when you tried running again!

For those of you still sceptical about Physio/McTimmoney then why not try massage? It's non-evasive and increases blood flood, improves circulation and can improve performance as well as general comfort.

I'm sorry that this is jumbled and so long and there a probably a ton of spelling and gramar mistakes and instances where I have not explained myself properly but I think you get the jist of my post.

I await the "troll" comments and abuse....

 

[dressagespain]

WOW, shiraz. LONG post!!

I agree with you so no troll comments from this direction.

Just wish my physio woman had not moved away!!

ANY PHYSIOS ETC WANNA MOVE TO SPAIN??? WE ARE DESPERATE !!

 

[Shiraz]

[ QUOTE ]
WOW, shiraz. LONG post!!

I agree with you so no troll comments from this direction.

Just wish my physio woman had not moved away!!

ANY PHYSIOS ETC WANNA MOVE TO SPAIN??? WE ARE DESPERATE !!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah sorry, got a bit carried away!!!

Thanks!! Hugely appreciated!!

Good luck with your physio hunt.

 

[Beanyowner]

I seriously think the point is being missed here!!

Where exactly am I insulting peoples profession!?!?!? Am I not allowed to question something...as I have said, yes I am a final year equine science student and yes I am learning a hell of a lot about the equine body...am I not allowed to apply this knowledge to real life horses?!?!? Am I not allowed to question something and ask other peoples views on the matter?!?!

If you read my post correctly I have actually got a McTimoney Chiropractor out to my horse...and I have also said my horse was improved by this visit...I am no way slating them, I am however questioning whether it was the actualy treatment that has made the improvement or whether it was the rest and reduced exercise which I was recommended to do by the practitioner...either way I do not begrudge spending my money...which I might add was nearly £100 in the end with another visit yet to come!!

[ QUOTE ]
She immediately diagnosed a rotated pelvis, tilt to the right and then muscle wastage on the side of the tilt and over developed on the left side.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is actually the kind of comments I was referring too in my original post...a horses pelvis cannot rotate!!!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to be an Equine Science student ... the books & people that they learn from are accessable to all.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are all the journals and text books doctors and lawyers learn from...your point?!?

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to Hollyjz for taking the time out to explain your work and I too find it shocking that you have to almost defend yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

She didn't...she offered to answer some questions...so we asked some!!

[ QUOTE ]
I await the "troll" comments and abuse....

[/ QUOTE ]

There won't be any...as I have put in the title...debate!! This is the kind of questioning I was after!!

Its a shame you have not found HHO to be welcoming in the past...I suppose we are all different and go to forums where will feel better suited! Please do come and post again though as you have made some very valid points which I have added to this debate.

 

[the watcher]

Beanyowner, I don't think the last couple of posts were directed at you.
It is a good debate as long as all sides are prepared to see another point of view, without neccessarily agreeing with it.

 

[Beanyowner]

Well of course...that is afterall the point of a debate.

The post from Shiraz was directed at me as I had not been one of the last to post when she replied so therefore not caught on the 'quick reply' button. I still think my questions are valid ones whether it was aimed at me or not though....and await a reply

I do not expect people to agree with me...just would like to know their experiences and if they can give me any more information which may change my mind on the subject!

 

[the watcher]

[ QUOTE ]
The post from Shiraz was directed at me as I had not been one of the last to post when she replied so therefore not caught on the 'quick reply' button. I still think my questions are valid ones whether it was aimed at me or not though....and await a reply

[/ QUOTE ]

I think she probably picked you as the original poster..most of the points she was addressing related to posts from puddicat