Cortez
Tough but Fair
Obviously. They are trained in different ways because they react in completely different ways to stimuli. Comparing a dog's reaction to a horse's is not relevant.
Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing
- Thread starter fankino04
- Start date
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I was not comparing their reaction. I was comparing human reaction. Would you, for instance watch and enjoy a greyhound race if the dogs were beaten in the finish?
Horses are prey animals, dogs are predators so clearly they react in different ways but they both feel pain and fear. Are you saying horses do not feel pain? In a racing finish why do you think hitting a horse makes it go faster? Is it ethical to inflict pain and fear on a animal for human entertainment?
Elf On A Shelf
...
Racing whips are padded with foam and air. They don't actually hurt that much they make more noise than anything. For comparison from human to horse - give your racing stick to a 10yo and tell them to hit you as hard as they can with it. It won't hurt but it will make a cracking sound. That's all.
Elf On A Shelf
...
I always thought they had to have ran in 5 chases in total before the National but completing 3 makes sense, they could have ran in more and not finished otherwise.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I was aware that racing sticks are not the same as normal whips. Out of interest if they do not hurt why does the jockey club put a maximum number of hits in its rules?
I also clearly remember reading a well known jockeys auto biography where he talks of putting a piece of metal in his whip. This would probably not happen these days but its stuck in my mind.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I think predominantly because the general public think it looks bad to hit a tired horse.
But if we are being completely honest, a whack, or even a threat of a whack, with a racing whip is not a subtle dressage aid. It's intended to invoke the fear response of running faster away from danger, so the general public are probably right but for the wrong reason.
.
Elf On A Shelf
...
To give the horse time to respond.
You need to give the horse 2 or 3 strides to respond before laying the Whip on the horse again.
Some tracks have short run ins, some longer but the number does not change. Nor does it change for race distance.
Plus by that stage of the race if the horse is going to respond and gallop on it will do so. If it has no more speed to give and will keep galloping at the same pace a Whip will make no difference to that fact.
You also need rules in place to make sure jockeys don't take advantage of their horses hence x amount of strikes, Whip bans, fines etc. Its not a free for all, it's a professional sport.
Whip rules are different in every country and they don't transfer bans from one country another.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I don't know, why don't you ask the Jockey Club? Horses don't necessarily go faster because they are being hurt, for example kicking a horse (ref "pony club kicks") doesn't hurt it but it (supposedly) does create a reaction. The use of a whip is an art - it is a tool, not a weapon, although of course it can be misused. I train dressage horses, I've never knowingly hurt one, but I do use a whip to focus and point the aids. Racing is not as refined, perhaps but whips are not designed to be used to hurt the horse.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Am I reading this wrong or do you genuinely believe pony club kicks don't cause horses any pain?
Gallop_Away
Well-Known Member
Thank you for starting this thread OP as mine was going off on a tangent.
I have so much to say on the subject so I apologise in advance for ramblings.
Personally racing is something I enjoy. I have worked on a p2p yard previously, and had amazing days at local races. I do also enjoy watching the GN and Cheltenham etc, although I do feel conflicted on times.
Every time I see a horse fall, I feel like my heart stops. I've not seen a horse fatally fall on course, but I did experience seeing one drop mid race from a fatal heart attack. That experience is burned into my mind, as is the image of the owner/trainer walking back to the lorry park holding the bridle, tears in his eyes.
The industry is far from perfect. Much has changed with races like the GN over the last few years, but there is much that can be improved still e.g. I think the number of runners in the national should be reduced. Also with flat racing, I have never and will never agree with 2yo being raced. Far too young!
I also think some practices involved in racing and indeed competition horses in general, such as horses being confined to stables much of their time, needs to change. But as with everything, things do change and are hopefully improving. I know for example, that Christian Williams is one trainer that does allow his race horses turnout. So hopefully this will start to filter through the industry.
I have seen first hand the love and admiration those involved with these amazing animals have for them. The owners, trainers, stable hands, riders.... they live for these wonderful animals. I challenge anyone who thinks it's "all about money" to visit a racing yard and see first hand the devotion those involved in racing show their horses.
It is desperately sad when a horse suffers a fatal accident, but accidents happen in every equestrian discipline, and even sometimes when horses are just hooning around the field.
We put our horses at risk, arguably for our own entertainment, all the time. I hacked mine out this morning up a busy stretch of country lane. I put them at risk of being hit by a car so that I could enjoy a Sunday morning ride.
If you want to ban racing because of the risks, then I think you also need to look at the risks with other equestrian disciplines and even riding horses in general.
Also hearing people say that they want to see racing banned "because horses die" makes me want to scream. There are currently some 14,000 in training in the UK. If racing was banned where will they all go? There are simply not enough experienced homes to take them. The sad reality is that while many would hopefully find homes, there are also many that would be pts.
I do think there is far too much wastage in the racing world, and I think the industry should do as much as it can to rehome horses after their racing career has come to an end, but that does not change the fact that banning racing would result in the very thing people want to stop. Banning it will in itself be a death sentence for many race horses.
The racing world and races such as the GN are certainly far from perfect, but I do believe it has a place in the world, and I would be incredibly sad to see it banned.
I have so much to say on the subject so I apologise in advance for ramblings.
Personally racing is something I enjoy. I have worked on a p2p yard previously, and had amazing days at local races. I do also enjoy watching the GN and Cheltenham etc, although I do feel conflicted on times.
Every time I see a horse fall, I feel like my heart stops. I've not seen a horse fatally fall on course, but I did experience seeing one drop mid race from a fatal heart attack. That experience is burned into my mind, as is the image of the owner/trainer walking back to the lorry park holding the bridle, tears in his eyes.
The industry is far from perfect. Much has changed with races like the GN over the last few years, but there is much that can be improved still e.g. I think the number of runners in the national should be reduced. Also with flat racing, I have never and will never agree with 2yo being raced. Far too young!
I also think some practices involved in racing and indeed competition horses in general, such as horses being confined to stables much of their time, needs to change. But as with everything, things do change and are hopefully improving. I know for example, that Christian Williams is one trainer that does allow his race horses turnout. So hopefully this will start to filter through the industry.
I have seen first hand the love and admiration those involved with these amazing animals have for them. The owners, trainers, stable hands, riders.... they live for these wonderful animals. I challenge anyone who thinks it's "all about money" to visit a racing yard and see first hand the devotion those involved in racing show their horses.
It is desperately sad when a horse suffers a fatal accident, but accidents happen in every equestrian discipline, and even sometimes when horses are just hooning around the field.
We put our horses at risk, arguably for our own entertainment, all the time. I hacked mine out this morning up a busy stretch of country lane. I put them at risk of being hit by a car so that I could enjoy a Sunday morning ride.
If you want to ban racing because of the risks, then I think you also need to look at the risks with other equestrian disciplines and even riding horses in general.
Also hearing people say that they want to see racing banned "because horses die" makes me want to scream. There are currently some 14,000 in training in the UK. If racing was banned where will they all go? There are simply not enough experienced homes to take them. The sad reality is that while many would hopefully find homes, there are also many that would be pts.
I do think there is far too much wastage in the racing world, and I think the industry should do as much as it can to rehome horses after their racing career has come to an end, but that does not change the fact that banning racing would result in the very thing people want to stop. Banning it will in itself be a death sentence for many race horses.
The racing world and races such as the GN are certainly far from perfect, but I do believe it has a place in the world, and I would be incredibly sad to see it banned.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Relatively little, judging by how utterly ineffective they are. If I was to kick you in the ribs it would hurt you a lot. I have seen horses double barrel each other right in the guts with no reaction whatsoever, so, again, your anatomy is not comparable to a horse's and comparing the two is nothing but anthropomorphism.
littleshetland
Well-Known Member
Slightly off on a tangent here, but does anyone on here remember a television programme that was on the BBC back in the 90's I think. It followed the life and fate of a racehorse that was owned by the queen. The horse started life being treated like 'royalty' (that word again..), however, after showing itself to be not making the grade the horse changed hands a few times eventually ending up being exported to Pakistan where it was administered with painkilling drugs and raced a lot until it really was a spent force. By this time, welfare standards were pretty much non existent ...and if my memory serves me correctly, it ended up hauling bricks at a brick factory.
Laafet
Well-Known Member
I would just like to point out that the developments in care and welfare, particularly veterinary advances have mostly come from the funding given by the racing authorities. A lot of the standard treatments we give were developed using that money so we have a lot to thank the racing community for. I have my own thoughts, I hate two year old racing, my own ex racer shows why that is so wrong, but I saw dressage horses broken in a 3 years old in draw reins by so called professionals - some of whom you all love on here. It is very hard to make a sweeping statement of a sphere of the sport on its own.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I don’t really enjoy racing but are we sure the wastage rate is more than for leisure and competition horses and those horses who are half and half .
I see plenty of lame horses when I am out and about .
Horses fall and are killed racing its dramatic and public but in the leisure horses industry suffer all the time as well poor diets , too fat ,horrible dusty stables turnout in tiny mud filled paddocks without getting any exercise, shoes on for far too many weeks poor tack bad riding lack correct veterinary input it’s an endless list .
The TB horses who had raced I have have had all had long lives the one I lost young was never raced and it was an accident that triggered the issue that we could not get right .
I don’t like two year olds racing but focus on racing while ignoring as an example the epidemic of obese leisure horse who don’t get enough exercise is illogical .
I see plenty of lame horses when I am out and about .
Horses fall and are killed racing its dramatic and public but in the leisure horses industry suffer all the time as well poor diets , too fat ,horrible dusty stables turnout in tiny mud filled paddocks without getting any exercise, shoes on for far too many weeks poor tack bad riding lack correct veterinary input it’s an endless list .
The TB horses who had raced I have have had all had long lives the one I lost young was never raced and it was an accident that triggered the issue that we could not get right .
I don’t like two year olds racing but focus on racing while ignoring as an example the epidemic of obese leisure horse who don’t get enough exercise is illogical .
rabatsa
Confuddled
I do not get out to events as much as you yet I have been at unaffiliated events where horses have died. One ran head first into a tree, the vet thought it was dead of a heart attack before it hit the tree. Another dropped dead on the flat two fences after it landed badly at a drop fence, its head got overrun by the body but the horse managed to avoid being classed as a fall. The vet thought it broke its neck at the drop fence but only severed the spinal cord later on.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Given that there is no significant difference between the concentration of nerve-endings and thickness of the equines and peoples' epidermis (1), and given how much overlap there is in human and equine physiology and sports science, and given that horses are prey animals so were designed to hide signs of pain, I have to disagree. Besides, I've seen horses appear to kick each other in the ribs, but upon inspection of video footage, they never made contact.
As for pony club kicks being ineffective, I've seem them used effectively a few times, though, yes, they are mostly ineffective. However, I would argue that that's because they're typically used as a last ditch attempt by the rider, when the horses is in the freeze response, so pretty much everything would be ineffective at that point.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I would argue that pony club kicks do indeed hurt but thats another story. I was in fact asking Elf on a shelf about the whip....Thanks anyway.
Flame_
Well-Known Member
Couldn't exactly the same negative spiral happen to the horse bred at a little stud whose owners hope will be their next superstar, but it has a flaw that goes against the breed standard so its sold to a performance home, but it won't jump so it's sold to a dressage home, but it shows mysteriously 1/10th lame on a small circle so it's sold to a hacking home, but it gets fat and laminitic in the field due to lack of exercise, so it gets sold to a muppet with a mud patch probably via 5 dodgy dealers where it breaks said muppet's heart by being unable to ever really do anything and gets lamer and more miserable in it's mud patch with 25 other cripples.
Good horse people have happy horses, and sometimes they have dead horses. Poor horsepeople have unhappy, suffering horses. Racing or not racing. Jump racing or flat racing. Competition or no competition. The focus ought to be on animals suffering, IMO, and I don't believe most race horses are suffering. People just don't like the idea that other people can take pleasure in sports where animals are in danger, but they can, we can, just look at the example above about riding on the roads. Plus many of those same people who would judge someone for risking a horse in the grand national will own a cat even though they live on a main road.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Thank you for explaining it.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
if as now racing wasn't banned where would those 14k horses all end up? Are there 14k experienced homes available to take them all? at some stage they will become redundant as the next lot of horses in training come along.
this is a question not a criticism. Can you give any figs. as to where the 14k end up. How many to breeding, how many to private homes etc and how many are wastage?
shortly the next 14k lot will come along. Are there enough homes for them as well?
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
It is, and a great result if that was last years Arc winner.
I love racing, NH anyway. It has faults I agree but any use of animals to do anything is going to have ethical concerns.
Gallop_Away
Well-Known Member
As I acknowledged in my post paddy there is too much wastage in the industry currently, and it's something the industry needs to tackle.
I have done a quick search and couldn't find stats for the UK but I did find a report made by rspca Australia that gives stats for thoroughbreds exiting the racing industry. I wonder if anyone can provide stats for the UK?
A 2013 survey of trainers funded by the Australian Racing Board is reported to have found that 45% of relinquished Thoroughbreds were used for breeding, 31% had been rehomed for other purposes, 14% were returned to their owner, 7% had died, and less than 1% had gone to an abattoir.
I suppose the key difference being that, unlike if racing were banned, those 14,000 are not all seeking homes at once. Naturally homes become available as people move horses on or loose horses themselves.
Also not all of those 14,000 will be currently be rehomed outside of racing, some will also be used for breeding, jockey training etc, which would not be the case if racing were to be banned. Yes some may continue to breed thoroughbreds, though perhaps not on the same scale.
Artax
Well-Known Member
Some great views and debates, I would agree with those comparing it to other disciplines in equestrianism at the moment.
New evidence regarding digestive health, joint and hoof health, muscle maintenance over the last 10 years are not reflected in the management of equines consistently across the disciplines. Possibly a reflection of a number of issues such as outdated training and a lack of funding for monitoring and standards development - no incentive for subscription to nor adherence to those standards.
Perhaps a systematic review is required to assess the situation comparing the evidence and current practice - could be a worthwhile study for a willing university/student.
New evidence regarding digestive health, joint and hoof health, muscle maintenance over the last 10 years are not reflected in the management of equines consistently across the disciplines. Possibly a reflection of a number of issues such as outdated training and a lack of funding for monitoring and standards development - no incentive for subscription to nor adherence to those standards.
Perhaps a systematic review is required to assess the situation comparing the evidence and current practice - could be a worthwhile study for a willing university/student.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I was a fence steward at a local event years ago when a horse died of a heart attack. The girl riding it was on here.
L&M
Well-Known Member
As a matter of interest, what will happen (if anything) to NH racing as and when Hunting is completely banned?
I appreciate there is a link between hunts and p-2-p's, which I assume will disappear as a fund raiser for the hunts that run them, but will this have a further impact on producing NH horses?
I appreciate there is a link between hunts and p-2-p's, which I assume will disappear as a fund raiser for the hunts that run them, but will this have a further impact on producing NH horses?
littleshetland
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what you say, you raise some very good points, however I do think racehorses that are successful contenders and still relevant (ie earning or potentially earning) are doing ok. As for the others, that don't find successful and knowledgeable new homes....I can only hope they receive a swift and painless end to their existence.
Elf On A Shelf
...
Nothing will happen to jumps racing if hunting is banned. It is a separate entity and very few horses actually go hunting whilst racing these days. The horses are too valuable.
Ptp In Britain? No. Very few horses come through the British point to point system and go on to be decent racehorses (I know, I know! Ahoy Senor is one such horse that I am saying doesn't really exist!) I could count on 1 hand horses that have gone from Brittish ptp's to proper racing. Most British ptp's are older horses that weren't good enough for rules racing or have done their time under rules and are now teaching the new generation of jockeys their trade. Irish ptp's are entirely different. They are the shop windows. Those are the young, up coming horses for jumping that run and get sold for stupid money. It is the national hunt version of the breeze up sales in a sense.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I used to have a job where I saw the dead passports for young horses not yet racing- every single week more than 10 passports would arrive from abattoirs for horses usually aged between 5-10. I have to say it did shock me, and put me off a career in the racing industry. These were horses that never made the grade to race, as they hadn't yet been named, there were additional horses that had at least got as far as being named going through the abattoir too.
I know people will say it's not the worst fate for a horse, and I did equally hear about welfare cases involving TBs in that job too, but it did convince me that we are in a bit of an odd cycle where people breed TB foals from not very inspiring mares in the hope they will make a racehorse, inevitably, they don't and then many of them aren't lucky enough to end up in a lovely second career.
I don't have the same perspective on other elite sports- I have heard the wastage rate for warmbloods on the continent is high, but I don't know enough about it.
However, we are breeding slightly over 4000 TB foals a year in GB (ignoring Ireland where about double are bred)- Obviously not all of those are intended for racing, but I would imagine the majority are intended to race. However, there are only 14,000 horse registered in training in GB. Obviously, some of the foals go on to be brood mares, or point to pointers etc- but what happens to the rest of them?
FWIW, I do think the ones in training, or the ones who end up in decent studs are the lucky ones, but the number of unlucky ones does bother me.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Do you think they're strict enough, given the number that fell or pulled up on the first circuit (and the risk then posed to everyone else by the loose horses)?
Does the national really need to have 40 runners?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I accept it happens. I don’t accept that it happens in numbers as a percentage of starters that invalidates a comparison between the proportion of deaths of starters over NH fences and the proportion of deaths of starters at BE cross country.
And I stick to my belief that if one horse died for every weekend of BE competition BE would shut down within a season. I don't believe that this list would ever exist for BE. https://www.horsedeathwatch.com/
I don't think it's feasible to stop jump racing without at least 10 years notice, and it's not something I would call for. But I'm finding attempts by people to convince themselves that on course death rates aren't an order of magnitude greater than the next most dangerous organised horse jumping sport really disturbing.
By all means support and justify the racing you love, but for the love of horses own the reality of the deaths.
.