Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[Elf On A Shelf]

My reasons for keeping racing alive and well -

The horses do genuinely love their work. Any that don't or can't be bothered don't race well and are thus found other jobs to do.

The majority of horses are cared for incredibly well. There are always bad eggs but they exist everywhere. In an ideal world all horses would be turned out every day and a lot of yards are doing this now but for places such as Newmarket, Lambourn, the Curragh etc it's not possible. You can't just turf a load of colts out together and expect them all to be in one piece at the end of the day.

The staff do love and dote on their charges. Yes some more than others and again bad eggs appear everywhere and not everyone is in a good mood every day - no one can say they have never, ever lost their temper with their horse in their entire lives.

Racing employs thousands and thousands of people. Not just in yards but on racecourses, studs, Wetherby's offices, BHA, Jockey Club, the bloodstock sales complex's etc. Then as secondary - betting shops, tack shops, silks makers, transport companies - domestic and airline.

The sheer volume of money put into veterinary science has evolved things much faster and thus also crosses over into other medical areas too including humans.

The tax made from every aspect of racing is phenomenal too. Gambling, wages, ticket prices, beer, food etc.

Racing is a sport many people enjoy watching and getting involved in. It is incredibly sad that die hard racing fans often avoid going racing on the big days now as they have been taken over by the drunken louts only there to drink, bet and show off. These people do not care for the horses they just want a fun day out.

Many retired racehorses go on to make great normal horses. They have seen and dealt with so much of life not alot phases them and they are generally easier to ride and deal with than these purpose bred hot blooded warmbloods that people buy then can't ride or handle. Tbs are used to being ridden and handled by different people so it's not such a huge deal to them.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

agree with all of this but would also like to see breeding done better for health. With all the ks and arthritis etc in TB’s I would like to see a movement to help with that sort of thing if it was possible.

It does annoy me that just because you have a mare you can breed from it regardless. At least a lot of the line breeding has stopped because of the problems it was causing but we are still equine generations away from completely fixing what got broken with the Northern Dancer/Nijinsky obsession.

I *think* it's Germany where by a mare has to have won at a certain level to be able to be bred from and the stallions also have to have won at a certain level but also have to have been vetted for soundness and conformation - a licencing of sorts.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I hardly ever watch racing anymore but being laid low by covid I did watch it yesterday. I was interested to see the virtual races. I know they will never replace racing but could they be used to help cut down the wastage of horses in racing theses days?
They could help with the publics love of gambling?
I just do not see how racing can be seen as ethical theses days. Too many horses bred too many accidents and deaths.
Do we have a right to use animals like this?
I wonder how breeders and owners can go to all the trouble expense and heartache to breed and train horses to send them out racing knowing there is a good chance each time they may not come back?

Virtual racing won't stick. Too many people will accuse the betting companies of fixing the racing (even more than they get blamed for fixing actual racing already ?) and it would be too easy for the bookies to do it. So no one would bet on it.

 

[Gingerwitch]

They don't constantly cough. I have no idea where you have got that notion from but it is certainly untrue! I would far rather be able to breath properly than struggle for breath.

Tell me the last time you had someone whipping you to run faster.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Tell me the last time you had someone whipping you to run faster.

The part of the conversation you were quoting and I was replying to was about wind ops! Wind ops have nothing to do with whips so I'm not sure why, yet again, you are trying to merge 2 completely different aspects of racing - and the horse world in general - into 1!

Do you ride your horses? Do you jump them? Do you carry a stick when you ride?

Plus - what happens in my house between me and my oh stays in my house ??

 

[humblepie]

On comparing to other horse sports -

Racing yards are regularly inspected by the BHA both horse and staff and the horses are seen by Equine Integrity and Welfare officers/Vets to a greater or lesser degree every time they race. They will be watched whilst they go to the start and be vet checked there is any concerns.

BHA yard visits can be planned or unannounced. Bloods and urine samples can be taken without notice and the BHA must know where every horse is. Other equine industries/sports don’t have that level of control or oversight

Trainers have to go on courses before they can be licensed - there is no licence or training requiring for anyone wanting to set up a competition yard. All under 19s new to the industry have to go on compulsory training courses.

Every time a horse races there is a chance it may be drug tested. Whilst there are drug testers at major equine events and in theory could be at any BD for example there is in practice zero chance of being tested I would say unless a big comp. I have competed national level for years and the only time my horse has been dope tested - the RoR champs which was very interesting to go through the process of sampling.

There is so much welfare work done, research and analysis and being done - for example the changing of take off boards to white from orange following research into how a horse sees.

Race day reports tell you if a horse finished lame, got a cut even lost a shoe such is the transparency.

Wind ops have to be declared as well.

 

[BBP]

I love thoroughbreds and was lucky enough to work on an excellent racing yard where despite being flat racers and babies they were all trained from the field (hilly fields at that) where they lived in pairs or 3s. They came in in the mornings to massive boxes, did their work and were chucked back out by lunchtime. The breakers were done as a job lot, hoiking riders up on board and sending them out on ‘rides’ as a little herd with a couple of older horses rather than lots of round pen work. Terrifying to me but seemed to work for them!

In its defence, As a sport I can’t help but feel racing is more ‘natural’ at its heart than almost any other horse sport. They are always in a group, basically running as a herd, allowed to gallop without being messed with (as in not having to work in a outline). With jumpers they are rarely hooked back hard with a shanked bit like you can see in SJ, most jockeys aim to ride in a way that doesn’t impact the flow of the horse. So in many ways I think the principle of racing isn’t a bad experience for the horse.

…But…as soon as you place that horse and jockey under financial pressures, the ethics of it falls apart for me. It’s not the horse that has the most joy of running combined with the athletic prowess to be fastest, it’s a battle of pushing the less talented, less athletic, less motivated horses to go faster than they want to go. There is no joy in watching a horse that is tired to the bone being pushed and pushed and pushed to be better. And yet because of gambling and the financial repercussions of ‘failing to try’, that jockey is compelled to keep going. To me the horses welfare comes second to the punters betting on them. And that makes me really sad.

 

[AmyMay]

At a life time of misery for the horse! Would you like to constantly cough as something is in your lungs ? Just for someone's fun ?

??‍ I’ve known several horses who have had wind operations. None coughed after the procedure, and could actually get air in to their lungs. I’m afraid you’re misinformed.

 

[ycbm]

At a life time of misery for the horse! Would you like to constantly cough as something is in your lungs ? Just for someone's fun ?

What are you on about GW ??

Neither Hobday nor a tie back put anything in the lungs and my horse was much happier after his operation and coughed no more than any other horse.
.

 

[Snowfilly]

There is also a huge percentage of leisure horses, show jumpers, eventers, dressage horses, show horses, hunt horses, endurance horses - the list is endless - thay have had wind ops for many various reasons - 99% of the time to improve performance.

I had a wind op done on a shire! I don’t think he ever cantered in his life before or after but it made him a lot happier trotting around in the field and at shows.

Friend had one done on a Dartmoor driving pony.

Nothing left in the lungs, no coughing and a lot better quality of life.

 

[stangs]

To begin with, I think a lot of work needs to be done in many equestrian disciplines, not just racing - frankly, in competitive equestrianism in general. Many of my below issues with racing apply to other disciplines.

Cons

1. I understand that training 2yos without fully developed knee caps, tends to result in fewer leg injuries. I get that. But, whenever I see that in defence of racing them so young, I always wonder why no one’s talking about back and pelvic injuries, given that the spine is the last to fully develop in the horse.
2. Turnout is rare, group turnout is even rarer. For me, this is unforgivable. Frankly, I think humans could ethically “get away” with a lot more if we just gave horses the chance to be horses in their spare time. Regarding Elf’s earlier point about colts being turned out together meaning they won’t be in once piece at the end of the day - if they had grown up their whole lives in herd environments, and knew how to interact with other horses, this would be much less of an issue.
3. “Racehorses get introduced to a lot at a young age” but, by not being growing up in a herd, they do not learn to learn, to be curious and to investigate as horses naturally should. Ex-racers in the leisure sphere don’t exactly have a reputation for being chilled because they’ve seen so much…
4. The mental stress of the job combined with the lack of turnout and high starch diets - sure, there’s a high rate of ulcers among leisure horses as well, but racing is inherently a breeding ground for ulcers.
5. The wastage is sickening, particularly in the US/Canada/AUS. Horses are bred for speed not longevity.
6. I very much doubt the idea that all horses in racing currently love their job. Given that horses are flight animals, if you’ve got an animal that’s a quick runner because it’s trying to get the ordeal over and done with, then it’s not going to get retired, is it? Horses are retired if they’re slow or if they’re not pliant and make their opposition very clear.
7. Of course, racing varies from country to country. I believe Japan uses more sports science in their training than the US does, for example, where many trainers take more of a “intuitive / horse sense” approach that’s often BS. So, breakdowns in US racing are much more common. But, in general, there are far too many horses gaining serious, often fatal injuries - particularly in NH.
8. Rich people who want a winner but have no horse experience, nor understanding of what’s important for maintaining horses’ mental and physical welfare, being the ones financing a lot of the industry and big trainers. Nuff said. I have no doubt that a majority stable staff love their horses and would do nothing to harm them, but they're not the ones making decisions, are they?
9. Shoeing them so young and giving them diets that will further ruin their feet.

Pros

1. From a purely aesthetic angle and ignoring horse pain signals, a horse galloping is a beautiful sight. I get shivers down my spine whenever I rewatch Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes (and his jockey wasn’t even moving the whip, let alone hitting him with it)
2. It’s a huge industry providing many with income
3. Racing does provide money for research that could be useful in multiple disciplines
4. Yes, compared to other disciplines, (UK) racing has many more regulations to maintain horse welfare. But if your standard for horse welfare is practically no turnout…
5. I do see a few trainers on social media who seem to genuinely care about their horses, and know what's important for them, who rehabilitate them after issues with KS, and whose horses seem to be (relatively) happy in their roles. (I very much doubt that this is the majority though.)

I’d find racing more acceptable if there were far fewer deaths in NH, if there was less wastage, and if horses were given more natural lives, hence helping with their mental wellbeing, and partially with their physical wellbeing.

Horses should be treated like horses first and athletes second.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Ban the whip apart from for safety reasons eg about to run out/ veer violently to the left. Any whip use is reviewed after the race and horse demoted/ jockey fined if not used tor safety

Retired means retired. The last lion being brought back after 5 years at the age of 8 and despite his results showing he isn't interested, his greedy owners and trainers continue to force him to race really angered me. He then dies in a race after breaking down. Course there's no investigation. He was a lovely looking horse and once his stud career didn't work out find him another job don't force him back to the track, especially as his jockey saidnhe was such a gentleman. I know some owners and trainers do non racing agreements but not many. A retirement should have to be officially announced along with where the horse is going and a website produced to reflect the current owners, horses job e.g. hacking/ dressage etc, which is updated each time they are sold so they can be tracked and don't disappear

Stables should have better social media. Elfs is one who does. For example, apart from a comment on here I cannot find any official update on Anibale Fly. There should be someone I can contact to ask about his wellbeing/ after a big race they have to update about their horses wellbeing. Elfs did even GE, who I dislike, did.

Have a cut off age where horses have to retire and be found another job. Maybe 11? It did not sit at all well with me them running Blaklion in it at 13, or Anibale Fly who had been struggling, or Regal Encore continuing to race at 14. There's so much they can do as a second career the "oh they enjoy it" doesn't feel enough- they could enjoy another career if given the chance

Owners should have accountability over securing the horse a suitable retirement and have to contribute to an ROR type charity, same as for the betting industry eg x percent of a bet goes towards a welfare charity.

Provide greater follow up as to those injured rather than just pts once they are out the public eye.

The betting link does not help at all. Maybe jockeys wouldn't push the horses so hard - some of the bets they were reporting at Cheltenham given the current economic situation were obscene, and sickening. People pull up at badminton after one refusal sometimes - would they if there was the level of obscene betting on it there is in racing.

Itv not showing the past winners parade was poor, usually they show little where are they now snippets so why not show the parade they had hours of coverage so could have given it 5 to 10 minutes easily - Alice or Luke would have been perfect to do it as they get so excited about the horses. I'd have thought as TR is so popular and was in it, he'd have meant they showed it. But no!

I also disagree with a lot in sj, the clobber on a lot of the horses heads is disgusting. Yes they're big powerful horses, but you can barely see their face. I'm also not a fan of headgear in racing bar a sheepskin noseband and cheekpieces

 

[sasquatch]

It’s statistically impossible to compare racehorse deaths with horse deaths in other equine sports, as often deaths in other sports aren’t reported on in the same way.
I know HRI require all horse deaths, including colic and in training, to be reported. Some aren’t reported until much later, but it means these deaths are recorded. I have tried looking for horse death statistics in eventing/showjumping etc and haven’t been able to actually find statistics that record them accurately.
You also have to consider that racing is run at a much more consistently higher standard and more regulated frequency than eventing/showjumping etc., we don’t know how many horses suffer fatal injuries or career ending injuries at unaffiliated competitions either. Nor are there the same penalties given for rider behaviour at unaffiliated events. I don’t know enough about team chasing to comment on it at all, but it also seems to be the closest to jumps racing.

A lot of the problems with horses being started young aren’t unique to racing. A lot of the QH people in the US start them at 2, if not younger, and let’s not pretend that dressage and jumping horses aren’t started as ‘rising 3’ in many places. I do think there is a very good argument that what racing is criticised for in their horse care and management, many turn blind eyes to those in other sports doing the same thing. Without a doubt, there are foals and horses deemed not good enough for showjumping or dressage that are just discarded, or who become broken down from doing too much too young. There is overbreeding in other equestrian sports, the same way there is breeding poor quality mares or mares with known issues. It may not be to the same scale as the racing industry, but it does happen.

Yes, the injuries caused by racing are caused by the fact the horses are running at speed either on the flat or at speed over fences. However, those injuries aren’t unique to racing itself and aren’t injuries only occurred on a race track or even in training for races. The same way that there is no way to accurately say a horse has had a heart attack due to racing alone - as it’s not just racing that has seen horses lost during or after competition due to a heart attack. Yes, the exertion has probably contributed, but sometimes they just happen. I knew a riding school that had a middle aged, fit, healthy pony drop in the field on his day off due to a heart attack. Gemma Tattersall lost Arctic Soul yesterday in what I have seen reported (I won’t say reliably) if most likely a heart attack, Hickstead, Wild Lone and I believe Ryan’s Son (I may be wrong) all died during or after competition due to heart attacks. Does this mean horses should have more cardiac investigation and care to the same level as human athletes (and here I’m just thinking of the deaths in footballers and the cardiac checks that a lot of teenagers in sport now have to do)? Probably. I don’t know enough to say if it does happen currently. My experience has been on a vetting, the vet checks the horses pulse before and after lunging and has a listen for a heart murmur and that’s it. From the stories I have heard, horses only have cardiac investigations once there seems to be a problem, rather than checks on their heart and performance of their heart the same way human athletes get them.

The issues a lot of people raise with racing aren’t unique to racing, and they’re very valid issues. But I do think they’re issues that should be questioned across all horse sports, especially with big breeding operations and competition sport horses. I don’t think it’s as simple as ban racing, but I do think the issues with racing are more apparent as races run more frequently, there’s more money and more access to the general public. It’s hard to compare races that generally are run at a high standard to an unaffiliated ODE or even to a local BE event (again - I don’t know enough about PtP and unaffiliated racing to know if that would be a fairer comparison or not)

This is without even attempting to look into some of the sports in the US like barrel racing and reining, as I can imagine they also have quite high injury levels at least and I know a lot of horses within those sports would be generally started younger than most horses within English equestrian sports.

 

[Cortez]

I was disappointed that the winning jockey in the national not only broke the use of whip rules in the finish but didnt even mention the horse in his interview. He didnt do it alone....

I don't suppose the horse particularly cared. He didn't exactly flog the horse either. I don't see either of those things as abusive.

 

[Sandstone1]

I don't suppose the horse particularly cared. He didn't exactly flog the horse either. I don't see either of those things as abusive.

Well clearly the jockey club did or they wouldnt have fined him, no I doubt the horse cared but it would have been nice if he had shown some appreciation for the horse.

 

[AmyMay]

but it would have been nice if he had shown some appreciation for the horse.

He did ??‍

 

[paddy555]

I can't think of any rights....



Absolutely none of it is for the benefit of the horse/horses. It's just man doing what man always has to do and try to have the "best" at any cost.

I can't think of any rights either. I would include other equine sports in that as well.

Last sentence sums it up really.

 

[Cortez]

Well clearly the jockey club did or they wouldnt have fined him, no I doubt the horse cared but it would have been nice if he had shown some appreciation for the horse.

The Jockey Club, rightfully, acted according to the rules, they have no discretion in the matter. I'm no fan of racing, but emotive anthropomorphism doesn't add to debates. ALL forms of riding are not to the benefit of horses.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The BHA are also now doing random hair tests at the races. It's really annoying when you have plaited up and the BHA vet comes along and asks you to take a plait put so they can pull some hair out ?

As to hearts - for 3 years a couple of vets came in and scanned the hearts of 20 horses of varying ages and lengths of careers. They scanned them when they were on holiday doing no work or hadn't been broken in yet (depending on animal) they then came back and scanned them every 2 months so they could see the size changes and other things through the whole fittening, racing and wind down to holidays again. They did this as a major research project. They only finished at the start of winter so I expect they are still putting all their findings together into a publishable paper.

As to social media - it is different for every yard like it is for every person. Some people don't like every to know what goes on every day in their yard others are very open about it. It's nothing sinister it's just some people like their privacy. Some owners don't like having their horses every move scrutinised by randoms on the Internet. I know a few of our owners like to stay on the down low and out of the public eye. If you are ever worried about a horse drop the yard an email/message/call and they will usually happily tell you.

 

[cold_feet]

I would argue against racing from a completely different angle. Gambling. It is exploitative, compulsive and destroys life. While money is being made there will be no end to racing. Having said that, I love the sport of racing. Love watching these amazing creatures give their all.

Yes hoses in racing are exploited, but so are animals everywhere. Every pet, every animal produced for food, every animal in a zoo, every recreational horse or pony. At least in racing there is a regulatory welfare standard that is publicly scrutinised.

 

[Sandstone1]

The Jockey Club, rightfully, acted according to the rules, they have no discretion in the matter. I'm no fan of racing, but emotive anthropomorphism doesn't add to debates. ALL forms of riding are not to the benefit of horses.

I agree with you on all forms of riding. Its not anthropomorphism not to agree with a horse being hit. If a dog was beaten to win a race would we feel the same?

 

[Wishfilly]

I think the wastage in racing is awful, and not all of the "too slow" find lovely homes in a new career- a lot are sent for slaughter, still (or put in low end sales where they are bought for meat). As the value of ex-racers increases, hopefully this number is decreasing, but due to the number of horses bred for racing every year, there is always going to be a high level of wastage. Obviously this happens in other disciplines too, but there is more likely to be a home for the warmblood who won't make grand-prix or the sports horse that won't make 5*.

Equally, some that are passed on to private homes end up in awful welfare situations, too (although that's perhaps more likely to happen in other sports).

There's enough money in racing (IMO) that if a more sensible number of foals were bred, the industry could make a commitment to at least some retraining and a second chance for every sound horse that was leaving racing.

In general, the wastage bothers me a lot more than anything that happens on the track *but* I do think the Grand National has too many runners- the ones you see on the first circuit pulling up or falling are often ones who perhaps should not be there at all. If it were up to me, I would introduce some kind of qualifying system for the Grand National- e.g. regional races of a similar length or over similar obstacles, and only horses that achieved above, say, 5th would get to run in the real thing- with numbers in the race limited to, let's say 20.

I think that would make the race safer on the day and put less horses in the race who are likely to fall/sustain injuries etc.

I'm sure, at least once, perhaps more than once, I've seen horses that have only raced competitively over hurdles put in for the national- which to me is like taking a horse from, say BE Novice and dumping it straight in at 5*- we don't do this in other sports, so why is it allowed in racing?

For balance, I do agree that the money in racing has helped to improve vet care and rehab available to all horses, and it is economically important to this country and provides a lot of employment (including at one stage, my own, so I am perhaps a bit biased).

I'd also add that due to the sheer number of horses involved, especially when you consider young stock and broodmares etc, an instantaneous ban on racing would be incredibly likely to lead to a mass slaughter of horses, which would be absolutely awful! I can't imagine there are 4000 odd people out there who can offer homes to e.g. TB yearlings, or would like to take on an unridden TB broodmare, for example.

 

[ycbm]

It’s statistically impossible to compare racehorse deaths with horse deaths in other equine sports, as often deaths in other sports aren’t reported on in the same way.

It's statistically easy and imo valid to compare deaths on the course between NH racing and BE cross country, which is probably is nearest equivalent.

The difference is very stark.

I don't belive BE would last out one season if death rates on the course came anywhere close to what is accepted as unavoidable in NH racing.
.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

There is strict criteria for horses running in the National. They have to have ran over fences at least 5 times and won or been placed over at least 3 miles in their careers amongst some of the rules. I will try to find them. You most certainly can't only run over hurdles before running in the National. It used to be the done thing to run over hurdles before the race to protect the horses Handicap mark so they got a lower weight but you know have to run in at least 1 chase the season of that National.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It's statistically easy and imo valid to compare deaths on the course between NH racing and BE cross country, which is probably is nearest equivalent.

The difference is very stark.

I don't belive BE would last out one season if death rates on the course came anywhere close to what is accepted as unavoidable in NH racing.
.

But that doesn't account for the unaffiliated events.

 

[ycbm]

But that doesn't account for the unaffiliated events.

In 50 years, I've never heard of a single horse dying at an unaffiliated event.

And unless they were dying in higher numbers than BE, which they aren't, it's not relevant to the comparison between the proportion of racing starters which die on the course and the proportion of BE starters which die on the course.

ETA "number" changed to "proportion".

It's headline news every time an eventer dies on course. In racing it's such an everyday occurrence it's barely mentioned.
.

 

[Flame_]

I was disappointed that the winning jockey in the national not only broke the use of whip rules in the finish but didnt even mention the horse in his interview. He didnt do it alone....

He seemed keen to give praise about the horse, it was the interviewer and circumstances that drew focus towards the crowd-pleaser aspect of SWC winning the National on his last ride. There were people on hand who were totally focused on Noble Yeats' well-being and cooling, so what if the rider got to concentrate on getting his breath back and enjoying his dream moment? He'd done his job and done it very well, except for the excessive whip use at the end.

I know racing has a lot of negatives and a lot of it is about human entertainment, business, pressure, ego, posing, etc, but IME real racing people are real horsepeople who I'd leave my horse with, unlike a lot of the hypocritical do-gooders who want everything they can't do banned.

 

[Cortez]

I agree with you on all forms of riding. Its not anthropomorphism not to agree with a horse being hit. If a dog was beaten to win a race would we feel the same?

Again, dogs are not horses don't react the same way, and are not trained the same way, at all.

 

[Sandstone1]

Again, dogs are not horses don't react the same way, and are not trained the same way, at all.

Well I know horses and dogs are not the same. They are however both sentient creatures that feel pain and fear.

 

[humblepie]

The qualifying conditions for the National this year were

• Official Rating (OR) of 125 or more
• Aged 7 or above
• Completed three or more steeplechases
• Completed one steeplechase in the current season
• Finished between 1st and 4th in a steeplechase over 2 miles 7½ furlongs or greater