Denman UR in Aon Chase..

It was that CH incident (and Gloria Victus) that put me off AP, I see him as the Lester of NH, win at all costs.
Personally, I don't think Valaramix simply slipped up, I think he clipped the heels of the horse in front and tripped, which was AP's fault for getting too close. Being ultra competitive is fine, but not at the expence of the horses.
 
Yes the horse did clip heels with the horse in front which happened to be Ansar. Horse was in 4th place and going very well four out. As they were making further progress between 3 and 2 out, Valiramix clipped heels with Ansar and went down. It was a crucial stage of the race as the pace generally quickens at that point. Personally I don't apportion blame to the rider or the horse. It was an accident, plain and simple. These things happen in racing and other equine sports. Tell me do you race ride as well? Have you ever ridden in a race of champion and grade one quality aboard horses that are the Rolls Royce of their breed? If you have and that goes for anyone else criticising jockeys for their efforts -whether over jumps and flat racing- then people have the expertise and practice to enable them to make informed decisions over the actions of another.
If people haven't then I guess we should all just sit down in our comfy armchairs and continue to debate how jockeys should race ride in grade one races at grade one tracks, even though we have never been a top class jockey ourselves. Shall we invite the likes of Mick Fitzgerald, Lester Piggott, Norman Williamson, Pat Eddery etc to declare their informed judgemental opinions, because only then I would be inclined to listen
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So you can pass an informed opinion that they are good jockeys, mistake free, despite never having been one yourself, yet others cannot express a differing opinion from the same outlook?
 
If you heard AP's post race analysis of a horse you would realise that this is only possible by having great empathy with horses and an understanding of what makes them tick. Yes he wants to win but that is what racing is about and what he is paid to try and do. Why is it wrong to try to have a good work ethic?
 
Good jockeys ride winners hence why they are chosen to ride horses by the trainers and the owners of the horses. We as mere spectators of the sport do not share the same privilege unless we too are the owner or trainer of a horse and we need to select a jockey for it.
I did not say that jockeys don't make mistakes, we are all human and isn't the saying ' to err is human?'
In the case of AP it was an accident with Valiramix end of.
My point was clearly to point out to people that it is not a simple black and white issue.
Jockeys riding in grade one races are under a lot of pressure from the trainers/owners/officialdom and the racing public themselves. If a horse does not achieve the most attainable position in race that is possible because it is not ridden to its full potential then jockeys get screamed at for either being lazy, schooling in public or that they are being paid to lose the race.
In the case of AP that day in the CH the horse was travelling extremely well, they were making their move. Ansar was in front and for a moment the horse in front was not going fast enough to get clear of the acceleration of pace by AP's mount. It happens a lot in races. How many times do you see horses get bumped along the rails or bunching up around a bend or at a crucial time in a race. The decision he had made was a split second one.
The horse was travelling at x amount of speed and obviously at that point faster than Ansar, hence why they clipped heels.
My argument was as such, if someone has never had that experience riding a top class animal at breakneck speed how could they be so judgemental that it was jockey error unless they have actually experienced it first hand aboard a similar horse themselves?
No I have never been employed to ride horses in a race. However race-reading of races and interviewing jockeys/trainers/owners/officials was very much part of my employment though.
Old Vic well said
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I was told by a racecourse vet that Valiramix broke his shoulder, probably had a hairline crack and it shattered at that point in the race - you could hear the bone break. I'm not sure it had anything to do with the horse being too close to the one in front .....or to the way he was ridden, just one of those things in racing....
 
Fantasma, race reading is an opinion, and assessment. Many of the serious pundits who earn a proper living at it disagree with each other, it's the nature of forming opinions. So as someone who has also earned from race reading, my opinion (by your criteria) is as valid as yours. As far as your argument goes, if you say you can't pass an opinion because you have never ridden in a race at Cheltenham, then that applies across the board and also to you.
However, I have evented when the steeplechase phases still existed and I have ridden work on racehorses, so I do have a bit of a clue about riding and jumping horses at speed.

AP was at fault after Valiramix fell by indulging a tantrum rather than checking the horse. He is a great jockey, but his will to win sometimes overrides the wellbeing of the horse. That allows him to be the winner in the numbers game, but that is not always a great work ethic when animals are involved.
 
Bonny yes my point entirely. The horse's injuries had nothing do with how the horse was ridden that day and neither did the fact that AP flung his helmet to the ground and did not attend to his stricken horse straightaway have any bearing on the outcome. The horse had a fractured shoulder. That was reported in the press the next day, I have a copy of the Racing Post dated Wednesday march 13th 2002 to hand to scan if anyone would like to see the reported stories by the press and even images taken when the horse actually clipped heels and went down.
Caledonia whether you have ridden racehorses in work or not or have steeplechased eventers is besides the point. I too have galloped at speed and jumped fences in my time and yet I would never dare to suppose that I have the experience of the quick thinking needed by a jockey in a truly run race at breakneck speed in a race such as the Cheltenham champion hurdle.
My point was simple in that unless someone has actually ridden in a race such as that, and been on a horse that has finished in the frame, won or had a very good chance of winning ( as we are not talking about the 200/1 no hopers that are there just to give the owners a day out and pass to events such as Cheltenham) then how could they give a truly valued opinion about such an incident?
I have race read, through work and as a serious punter and despite the fact that I am well regarded by a few race-reader friends and know a great deal about the sport I would never dream of saying that I know everything and that I am always right. I know you are not saying that either but I still wanted to make a point.
People will continue to disagree c'est la vie. However what did annoy me was the constant criticism of a man who was simply doing his job and that people who have never been in a similar position ( if they have then speak out!) were being over critical of a situation that was not the jockey's fault not only in my eyes but have a read of the above mentioned newspaper as well ( and no not all journalists see through rosy spectacles before anyone claims that they do) Horse suffered a fatal injury and yes it was very sad. I know Mr Pipe ( David and Martin), AP, travelling head lad and other people at the stable personally and I know that they were sad about the whole incident, as they were over Gloria Victis too.
We are all entitled to an opinion and I have given mine too.
I doubt AP would lose any sleep over what happened. It occurred a long time ago. Yes it made him sad at the time, as it would any jockey with a heart and an empathy for horses. To be fair I have seen more compassion from jockeys- particularly National Hunt- to their mounts than I have in any other equine sport, so they do care.
But jockeys mostly go on to live and fight another day, sadly some of their mounts do not. That is a sad fact of racing and any other sport that involves equines. Accidents happen and that day an awful one took place, but in my own view based on race watching -as I am no premier jockey- that is all that I saw. An accident which was non preventable in my book. AP saw a chance of winning the race for connections and had a horse capable of doing so. Horse came down, fractured shoulder and it was that bad the horse could not be saved and was destroyed. AP knew he had a winning chance and anyone with a fighting spirit would have acted the way he did knowing that the horse would most probably have won ( yes my opinion again) so to fling his helmet and have a tantrum. A lot of sports professionals throw 'paddies' when they have either made a serious mistake or lost the chance of winning by a fluke or accident, Wimbledon springs to mind as the most notable event that throws them up, oh I forgot that is not racing though is it lol. AP did act in the horse's best interests though. He most probably thought at the time that the horse was winded when it fell heavily like that as it did not try to get up straight away. It was reported though that when the horse got up and tried to run AP caught up with it and brought it to a standstill. I could most probably fish the recording of the race out as I have many, many Cheltenham's recorded but I really cannot be bothered as it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to this conversation.
You have your view and I have mine. We will never agree on this one, so let's call it a day heh? There is far more to life. I just wanted to reply to your post so I have. I have more important **** to deal with and there is also the prospect of the 2010 festival around the corner when I am looking forward to the Denman vs Kauto Star clash as I have a huge respect for both horses.
 
My point, which you seem to ignore, is that you are no better placed to pass judgement than me or anyone else if you take the stance that you need to have ridden in races to comment.
You comment as if AP is perfect. He's not. So deal with it.
 
I did not say that AP is perfect no one is so stop trying to twist what I say. For gawds sake stop getting your knickers -or whatever else you have on- in a twist.
I don't need to deal with anything luv it is you who has the problem as you keep bringing up how wrong it was -supposedly-for AP to slam down his helmet in a paddy as he did; when there have been other times when jockeys have done the same thing. I think it is you who needs to get over it lol
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Glad to hear your knickers are ok cos there is nowt worse than them falling down legs and making you trip up, not that I have ever had the misfortune to have that happen but I bet it is damned funny to see if they do lol ( by that I mean everyone btw). Yes he does have faults as do a lot of other jockeys and people too. No one is infallible.
 
Caledonia - the steeplechase of a 3 day event cannot compare to racing. The speed is a fair bit slower than an ordinary chase, let alone a champion hurdle. Not only that but you are "competing" against a clock, not other horses so it is a different type of riding. The bias of riding work is different too with the emphasis on fittening, not getting from point A to point B faster than your rivals. Therefore while it gives you more understanding of speed than a happy hacker, it is not the same.
Top sportsmen in all sports act impulsively when things go wrong. Like top competitive horses they must be near the edge to produce the brilliance. Therefore it is understandable that they boil over when sh!t happens. Emotions run high and we don't necessarily behave in as rational a way as in every day life.
I dispute that the well being of the horse is overridden by AP's will to win. He wouldn't want to harm a horse any more than you would, however remember these horses have a job, just like him, to win races. They are worshipped by their connections but they are not pets and if he can instill his work ethic into them to win races that they weren't sure they could then I, for one, will appreciate what he does.
 
I know there's a difference between the chase phase and a race. For a start you have the problems of other horses beside you.
I was not saying the speed compares,(especially as that is entirely irrelevant in the total disregard AP had for the stricken horse) but there are parallels in how horses jump, whatever the nature of the competition because of their psychological and physiological make up. And interfering on Denman caused the problems, IMO.
I think AP was at fault, you don't. We disagree. I'm not basing my opinion on the odd race, I've watched AP his whole career, along with jockeys before him. I have ATR & RUK on all day. I have my opinion of him founded on all the races I see him ride, the opinions of trainers and owners (that I know) who have used him, and how I perceive the longevity of the horses he has ridden.
I think he's a great jockey on SOME horses. But I wouldn't have him on mine.
 
An event horse on the steeplechase didn't come off the bridle like a racehorse does and with the reduced speed horse and rider have more time to make decisions and adjustments. Therefore the parallels are very limited. However good a rider there will always be some horses that they don't gel with but as you know I don't think this is the case with Denman. I certainly don't think he affects the longevity of a horse - they come out of a race at least as well as with other jockeys when he has ridden them and definitely good in their heads. Those of us who don't have time to watch telly all day still observe a lot through the RUK replays and the websites of both channels so are no less informed.
 
You see a different rider to me then......

Admittedly event horses don't come off the bridle, and are not quite as tired as racehorses towards the end of a race. But to me, that kind of backs up my argument that asking a tiring horse more than he feels capable of is a recipe for disaster.

Ruby kept Pasco safe yesterday by allowing him to pop. As he does with Denman. To me that is the mark of a true horseman, to respect the animal underneath him.
 
Pasco's natural preference is to pop. All the way down the back he was ridden forward to find a good spot. Ruby asked Pasco up long two out with the horse going flat and looking like he was not entirely comfortable with the idea. There was no choice but to pop the last as there was not a long option and outside the wings is out of Pasco's range (and Big Fella Thanks was going better anyway).
I hate the british trend to knock the successful - AP does respect his horses. Asking them to do their job is not treating them with disrespect and our horses don't have a problem with him.
 
Is it bollox about knocking him because he's successful in this instance. I have said several times he's a great jockey in respect of winning races, and can galvanise horses that other jockeys wouldn't win on. But I'd not choose him for mine.

I disagree with you about AP ...... that's the end of it.
 
Oi - That's not me writing that!!
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Caledonia don't know which one of us is the daft tart here - me for using your puter and not logging out before leaving this morning, or you for not checking
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Must take more water with it in future.
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[ QUOTE ]
Oi - That's not me writing that!!
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Caledonia don't know which one of us is the daft tart here - me for using your puter and not logging out before leaving this morning, or you for not checking
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Must take more water with it in future.
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That'll teach me to write stroppy replies in a hurry whilst hungover...........
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My horse will be delighted - more chance of him having his favourite jockey if you don't want him!!
I am sure AP won't lose any sleep over you not wanting him riding for you.
 
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