Dressage Discussion- when does bad tension become good tension?

Hi I posted the vid because to my eyes the horse looks quite tense at times, the poll is frequently not the highest point and the nose is frequently btv but it's a 9 year old and not established at GP level. TBH I find the tail, even when the horse is more established at GP, quite distracting but I'm not sure it's a sign of tension or not. The passage and piaffe are expressive with good lift but I'm not sure the horse sits enough. I think it shows a horse that shows both positive and negative tension and is certainly one that would always score well despite the tension and mistakes. The amount of power needed to perform a GP test is way different to a novice level test, hence, I feel, that power can easily become negative tension. What do others think?
 
oldie48 said:

So where do people stand on this, another 80%+ GP Freestyle by a 9 year old and another famous horse?
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OK so for me, I think this is deserving of a good mark. 8 being good ;)
I think the ability to visibly lower the quarters in pi/pa is partly conformation dependent and while this wouldn't fit into the classical silhouette that people often like to draw to compare "modern dressage", for me the ease of transitions between extension, ultimate collection, into passage and back again, the trueness of the walk etc all shows a correctness which i think is deserving of a good score. Yes the frame and balance needs development to become well maintained but it looks like a horse heading the right way to me.

I agree if you look at it the tail looks distracting but having one that flicks with every aid I know there is nothing you can do about it and when combined with a generally relaxed appearance, the ears flicking about gently etc I still think it is meaningless. it can become a habit and the reason I think that applies in this case is because it happens every time you know he is giving an aid - there's a different pattern of flicking in the 1 and 2 tempis for instance.
 
oldie48 said:
Hi I posted the vid because to my eyes the horse looks quite tense at times, the poll is frequently not the highest point and the nose is frequently btv but it's a 9 year old and not established at GP level. TBH I find the tail, even when the horse is more established at GP, quite distracting but I'm not sure it's a sign of tension or not. The passage and piaffe are expressive with good lift but I'm not sure the horse sits enough. I think it shows a horse that shows both positive and negative tension and is certainly one that would always score well despite the tension and mistakes. The amount of power needed to perform a GP test is way different to a novice level test, hence, I feel, that power can easily become negative tension. What do others think?
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This is a good summary to me!

It would be nice to have videos comparing negative and positive tension.

It seems as if it is coming down to expression, in that tension creating good expression through a move is positive but tension creating perhaps unwanted expression is negative.
 
oldie48 said:
The amount of power needed to perform a GP test is way different to a novice level test, hence, I feel, that power can easily become negative tension. What do others think?
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I think this is definitely true, it's not just power but also intensity of movements and effort and corresponding reduction of places to "regroup". Basically everywhere you are going, you are having to show something that is almost impossible in terms of difficulty. and there's really only the corners available to you to fix something that has gone wrong. If a horse starts to become tense it's the work of a magician to talk the horse down off the ceiling in the middle of a test...

if you start a piri tense you really can't fix it until you are no longer in the piri. if you start a piaffe tense, you are just stuck on the spot trying to keep the horse moving positively. if your 1s start off tight they are going to be really hard to improve. there is no room to improve stuff within the movements, so I think it is entirely understandable that negative tension can creep in and seem to take over. At novice, elementary, medium.... I'd say you mostly have room to develop or improve things that start badly, a half pass from centre line to the long side can begin tight and finish elastic but a GP zigzag is much harder to influence once you've started.
 
milliepops said:
I think this is definitely true, it's not just power but also intensity of movements and effort and corresponding reduction of places to "regroup". Basically everywhere you are going, you are having to show something that is almost impossible in terms of difficulty. and there's really only the corners available to you to fix something that has gone wrong. If a horse starts to become tense it's the work of a magician to talk the horse down off the ceiling in the middle of a test...

if you start a piri tense you really can't fix it until you are no longer in the piri. if you start a piaffe tense, you are just stuck on the spot trying to keep the horse moving positively. if your 1s start off tight they are going to be really hard to improve. there is no room to improve stuff within the movements, so I think it is entirely understandable that negative tension can creep in and seem to take over. At novice, elementary, medium.... I'd say you mostly have room to develop or improve things that start badly, a half pass from centre line to the long side can begin tight and finish elastic but a GP zigzag is much harder to influence once you've started.
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The comment about "places to regroup" is spot on and I hadn't thought of it!
 
MP is spot on again, the time inbetween movements in the GP is insane, in the meaty part of the canter work you have a maxium of half a short side to recover from the last movement and set up for the next one, so any tension, issues etc are virtually impossible to rectify unless you are about to do the walk section, and depending on the horse that may or may not help you! Whereas at the lower levels you have a good chance of fixing things, its also where that positive tension comes in because the horse has to be absolutely on your aids to a degree that is quite hard to explain if you havent experienced it, simply because everything happens so fast there is no time for any delayed reactions.
 
I struggle with the tail thrashing because I've never, personally, ridden a horse where thrashing the tail doesn't mean either "I can't" or "I don't want to" do what you are asking. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but I've not personally met one or seen one whose tail thrashes from side to side that I recognise as saying anything else.

In a test like the one above where it's very specific which movements the horse is happy with and which it isn't, I don't understand why the tail thrashing is not, compared with another horse which does not do it, marked down.
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oldie48 said:
The comment about "places to regroup" is spot on and I hadn't thought of it!
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tbh it is only through attempting to get somewhere close to even try it, that i have fully appreciated the scale of the task. when you get to PSG you think, wahay, tailcoat time, we've made it! but i think it was daffy that told me you're about half way there at that point. time to knock the ego right back again and get back to work. My trainer reminds me when I get despondent that it really is just about almost impossible.

the combinations that make it look easy are superhuman (superhorses). I have the utmost respect for them, and from my own bumbling experiences I also find myself increasingly forgiving (or at least understanding) of errors or problems.

It also helps me to remember that GP is just a level like novice or medium, and within that level like all others, there is a spectrum of competence. At elementary no one starts pulling apart a combination for not being good enough, you just say, well the leg yield was supple but it doesn't have an extended trot yet. but good on the rider for trying. I find there is not the same kind of acceptance at GP, it's as though you are supposed to be performing at the top of the level in order to be a valid competitor sometimes.
 
milliepops said:
It also helps me to remember that GP is just a level like novice or medium, and within that level like all others, there is a spectrum of competence. At elementary no one starts pulling apart a combination for not being good enough, you just say, well the leg yield was supple but it doesn't have an extended trot yet. but good on the rider for trying. I find there is not the same kind of acceptance at GP, it's as though you are supposed to be performing at the top of the level in order to be a valid competitor sometimes.
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In any other sport the top performers are expected to be extreme pro's. Football, rugby, athletics etc there isn't really anyone just 'having a go' at pro level. Dressage seems to be unique in that there is a bigger mixture, and it seems strange to me (can't say for anyone else!) why it often seems that it can't be discussed as you would any other pro sport.
 
milliepops said:
tbh it is only through attempting to get somewhere close to even try it, that i have fully appreciated the scale of the task. when you get to PSG you think, wahay, tailcoat time, we've made it! but i think it was daffy that told me you're about half way there at that point. time to knock the ego right back again and get back to work. My trainer reminds me when I get despondent that it really is just about almost impossible.

the combinations that make it look easy are superhuman (superhorses). I have the utmost respect for them, and from my own bumbling experiences I also find myself increasingly forgiving (or at least understanding) of errors or problems.

It also helps me to remember that GP is just a level like novice or medium, and within that level like all others, there is a spectrum of competence. At elementary no one starts pulling apart a combination for not being good enough, you just say, well the leg yield was supple but it doesn't have an extended trot yet. but good on the rider for trying. I find there is not the same kind of acceptance at GP, it's as though you are supposed to be performing at the top of the level in order to be a valid competitor sometimes.
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So true, there does seem to be a lack of tolerance at GP for areas of weakness etc, which is odd, because most trainers will tell you it can take a couple of years competing at that level before a horse starts to show what it is capable of, of course this is not true for the superhuman/horse combinations, but its certainly true for the bulk of GP competitors.

I did tell you that psg is halfway there, sorry! I remember being told it when I got to psg, and I thought it was nonsense, I was wearing a tailcoat, my horse was happily doing some half steps, some one tempis etc, so I thought I was way nearer then halfway....I was of course, totally wrong, psg really is about halfway, because its not just the movements, but being able to put them together so quickly under test conditions, without (hopefully) losing quality of pace, way of going etc, etc. The late, great Herbert Rehbein said that between psg and gp are the Himalayas, and hes absolutely right.
 
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shortstuff99 said:
In any other sport the top performers are expected to be extreme pro's. Football, rugby, athletics etc there isn't really anyone just 'having a go' at pro level. Dressage seems to be unique in that there is a bigger mixture, and it seems strange to me (can't say for anyone else!) why it often seems that it can't be discussed as you would any other pro sport.
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i don't think dressage is unique particularly - all horse sport allows amateurs to mix with pros, not only that but there are also pros (and horses) starting out at the level mixed in with olympians.
 
milliepops said:
i don't think dressage is unique particularly - all horse sport allows amateurs to mix with pros, not only that but there are also pros (and horses) starting out at the level mixed in with olympians.
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It is quite unique in the world of pro sport though. It also seems to have less stringent requirements to take part in a GP test then 5* eventing or SJ which changes the dynamic.
 
Yeah.... but most people would hold off entering until they could get round the test at home, so I think it's fairly self selecting and the consequences of it going wrong are pretty insignificant in comparison.

I'm not really sure I understand your angle. Someone with a horse trained to GP has to do their first test at some stage, where can they do that if not in a GP class?
 
milliepops said:
Yeah.... but most people would hold off entering until they could get round the test at home, so I think it's fairly self selecting and the consequences of it going wrong are pretty insignificant in comparison.

I'm not really sure I understand your angle. Someone with a horse trained to GP has to do their first test at some stage, where can they do that if not in a GP class?
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It's not that people can't have a go, it's more it is a pro level so we should be able to discuss positives and negatives from everyone's ride (as long as it is not personal). This more especially for a top pro at a top ranked show, like Carl for example. Sometimes it seems as if people don't like saying, I think this move was ridden poorly because X,Y,Z or I don't like this training or I like this part etc. Which seems more commonplace in football for example.
 
milliepops said:
Yeah.... but most people would hold off entering until they could get round the test at home, so I think it's fairly self selecting and the consequences of it going wrong are pretty insignificant in comparison.

I'm not really sure I understand your angle. Someone with a horse trained to GP has to do their first test at some stage, where can they do that if not in a GP class?
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Also you self select where you start, you may well begin in a pyo at a local show, not doing the full on class at a Premier League, but you do have to start somewhere.

But I think in other sports you are also allowed a progression even once you have reached the higher levels, track and field athletes continue to train and believe they can improve even once they have reached championship level.
 
Ah OK. Thanks for explaining SS. I don't think I have had the same experience, I've always found friends and peers very willing to discuss things but I guess I feel uncomfortable about the vitriol that often comes out on social media, when in general no one goes out to try and do a bad job.
 
milliepops said:
Ah OK. Thanks for explaining SS. I don't think I have had the same experience, I've always found friends and peers very willing to discuss things but I guess I feel uncomfortable about the vitriol that often comes out on social media, when in general no one goes out to try and do a bad job.
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Ah yes I try not to be horrible about it! I do think we need to question some things though as to help progression.

I think this discussion has helped me with the positive/negative tension and I'm going to try and take some of this forward.

I'm hoping to start doing my judge training this year too so let's hope I'm a nice judge ?.
 
milliepops said:
Whereas mine flicks hers about practically every step even when thoroughly relaxed and through, so it's pretty meaningless in some cases IMO
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Mine's tail is constantly swishing violently. As you are putting boots on, as you tack up, if you touch his neck. Leg aids all get swished at. I used to worry about it and now I just live with it.
 
That video of Edward Gal on the 9yo is an interesting one to have in the middle of a discussion about good Vs bad tension, because to me that horse looks like it is actually pretty low tension...too low in fact. It doesn't look like a horse that has gradually built its strength and expression over time, it looks like a horse that has bucket loads of movement without the full strength (by which I mean tension) to control that movement. It looks to me like EG is having to generate far too much of the tension for the horse, just to hold it all together, which is why I think you're getting so many moments of btv.
 
TheMule said:
Where do we stand on this getting over 80%?
To me, this is both dressage breeding and training taken several steps too far. I can absolutely appreciate the horse is very expressive and there are few 'mistakes', but the whole way the horse is going is tension
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could be the old champers from last night, but is that video slightly slowed down?
 
oldie48 said:
Hi I posted the vid because to my eyes the horse looks quite tense at times, the poll is frequently not the highest point and the nose is frequently btv but it's a 9 year old and not established at GP level. TBH I find the tail, even when the horse is more established at GP, quite distracting but I'm not sure it's a sign of tension or not. The passage and piaffe are expressive with good lift but I'm not sure the horse sits enough. I think it shows a horse that shows both positive and negative tension and is certainly one that would always score well despite the tension and mistakes. The amount of power needed to perform a GP test is way different to a novice level test, hence, I feel, that power can easily become negative tension. What do others think?
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With this mare, I don’t think there is much point discussing it as she is no longer of the world, also she was blooming awesome in what she did. Coming from the circus to an international dressage stage is Special however you look at it
 
TwoForTwo said:
With this mare, I don’t think there is much point discussing it as she is no longer of the world, also she was blooming awesome in what she did. Coming from the circus to an international dressage stage is Special however you look at it
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why don't you think there is merit in reviewing older footage?
we aren't exactly offering training ideas to the rider :p
 
milliepops said:
why don't you think there is merit in reviewing older footage?
we aren't exactly offering training ideas to the rider :p
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I don’t think many horses would be all that similar in her way of going so not much really to be achieved, she was individual for sure, like all horses are
 
TwoForTwo said:
With this mare, I don’t think there is much point discussing it as she is no longer of the world, also she was blooming awesome in what she did. Coming from the circus to an international dressage stage is Special however you look at it
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Circus?
She was always a dressage horse- bred by a dressage stud, competed prolifically in YH classes
 
I wonder if we are
TwoForTwo said:
With this mare, I don’t think there is much point discussing it as she is no longer of the world, also she was blooming awesome in what she did. Coming from the circus to an international dressage stage is Special however you look at it
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I should think everyone reading the post is fully of aware of her sad demise but I completely fail to see why we shouldn't look at videos of her through out her career. Totilas is also no longer with us. Very confused!!
 
TheMule said:
Circus?
She was always a dressage horse- bred by a dressage stud, competed prolifically in YH classes
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As far as I recall the horse that came from the circus to be an International dressage horse was the little Russian horse, also grey, called Beluga? Maybe? I could be wrong about the name, but I do remember the horse coming from a circus first, but he definitely wasnt that mare.
 
TwoForTwo said:
With this mare, I don’t think there is much point discussing it as she is no longer of the world, also she was blooming awesome in what she did. Coming from the circus to an international dressage stage is Special however you look at it
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She came from the circus?
 
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