Disgraceful - Surely this horse is far too young?

I agree with those who have pointed out the double standards! Another thread on what to do with my 2yo is getting replies of do nothing , it's a baby let it grow , turn it out full time with other youngsters etc. However now it's fine to have a 2yo being dressage schooled because his sire is famous?! How odd...
 
saddlesore said:
I agree with those who have pointed out the double standards! Another thread on what to do with my 2yo is getting replies of do nothing , it's a baby let it grow , turn it out full time with other youngsters etc. However now it's fine to have a 2yo being dressage schooled because his sire is famous?! How odd...
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Sorry but its horses for courses,

I do agree with you though, the people on this forum are odd.



:)
 
windand rain said:
I would have far greater respect for any breeder if they were responsible enough to refund any money if the horse doesnt make old bones and have the full potential they are pedaling I know there are no guarantees and training is variable but if the horse suffers a break down due to rearing (as in bringing up not standing on their hind legs) then they should be liable. So djd, arthritic changes at an earlier than average age, bone chips etc perhaps then they would think twice about backing at 2
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You have GOT to be kidding right?!
 
saddlesore said:
I agree with those who have pointed out the double standards! Another thread on what to do with my 2yo is getting replies of do nothing , it's a baby let it grow , turn it out full time with other youngsters etc. However now it's fine to have a 2yo being dressage schooled because his sire is famous?! How odd...
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I totally disagree with those who let youngsters run wild until they are 4.

It is best to handle them at a young age as they are less likely to be thuggish as they get older. It does absolutely no harm to get a 2yo used to wearing a headcollar and bridle, being lead, picking up their feet, being groomed etc.
 
I have heard that if I was to buy a horse in Germany provided I didnt ride it I would have two years to return it to the owner if it broke so I dont really see what is different provided it could be demonstrated that it was an intrinsic problem that caused the break down. A two year window to send it back for a full refund would prove interesting
Darremi no one was suggesting letting it run wild until it was four although I have met many a horseman that would prefer a totally unhandled 4 year old to back than one that had been over handled from birth. There has to be a happy medium So weekly handling with feet and jabs etc and maybe a catch lead and load lesson every few weeks is ample once manners have been intilled in a foal in its first weeks of life
 
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Wait, what? You want breeders to be responsible for long term soundness. Many of the horses are sold before training. Well heck that's fine as long as I get paid more money for screwing up the family when a wannabe ruins said horse in the quest to be a "pro". Or how about taking a young horse and leaving them in 24/7 besides work and wondering why they don't stay sound. Seriously it's always the ****** breeder. No one else ever screws up a horse.

Terri
 
windand rain said:
I have heard that if I was to buy a horse in Germany provided I didnt ride it I would have two years to return it to the owner if it broke so I dont really see what is different provided it could be demonstrated that it was an intrinsic problem that caused the break down. A two year window to send it back for a full refund would prove interesting
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And how do you prove that "intrinsic" problem ?

"send it back" how about "no chance in hell"

I might buy a car from Germany and see if I can get my money back when it breaks down,

Jeeysus H
 
I agree that the idea is highly unfair to breeders and frankly a bit ridiculous. I cannot imagine any breeder agreeing to such a warranty. There are far too many causation issues.

A horse is not a car that came off a production line and whose faults can be attributed to the manufacturing process.

Other than picking the parents I fail to see how a breeder has any further responsibility for the horse's physiology.
 
Not the breeders but the producers and no if it the owners treatment you would not be liable but I must check out the wording of the european law which covers horse sales to see exactly what it does cover
to clarify the conditions of the two-year warranty for companion animals and horses in Germany

- breeder/seller is aware of the fault and DOESN't disclose it: such a case would be fraudulent intend by the breeder/seller anyhow.
- aware of the possibility of the fault: this relates mostly to dogs. When you sell a puppy out of parents which are known carriers of known genetic flaws, like hip dysplasia, a judge can assume that you knowingly took the risk of producing a puppy with the same flaw: breeder/seller is not applying general accepted guidelines for responsible breeding. And the breeders on this board all call themselves responsible breeders resp. sellers
- the animal must be "unused": for horses this refers to "not ridden or bred yet". If a horse is "used" warranty can be limited to one year: any horse that has been broken to saddle/harness or bred is already exempt. If one sells a faulty youngster without disclosing the fault (again FAULT MUST EXIST AT TIME OF SALE AND TAKING OVER BY BUYER!) is again commiting fraud
- selling the animal for a certain use and this use is part of the sales contract: if you sell an animal for f.e. high level jumping or dressage and it isn't able to do jumps/dressage at that level you can be held responsible because as a commercial seller you should be able to assess a horses ability correctly. If you don't disclose such limitations at time of sale AND include this attribute in the sales contract nontheless, again fraud. If you sell the horse as leisure horse, nobody can expect this horse to be able to compete successfully at a high level.

A long travel cannot be placed in the responsibility of the breeder/seller when the new owner arranges/pays for transport. He/she has already taken over the horse, the sale is completed and all dangers have been transfered to the buyer.

If you're unsure about the health of a horse you sell, arrange vet inspection before sale. Disclose all known traits and possible faults in the contract and exclude qualities/attributes which you can't be sure of.

Not sure if this is completely accurate but is an answer to a question posed elsewhere
 
Goldenstar said:
Well it's not been bred to play .
It's been bred into a big money business.
But All it's doing is walk trotting and cantering .
And I don't like the rider at all .
It's not what I would want for one of mine but it's the reality for many of these uber super horses .
He's got very special breeding so he'll probably be aimed at being a Grand Prix horse so they will be thinking long term with him .
He'll be luckier than many very young TB's.
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This
I thought the riders hands were very quiet and horse was in simple bit.

Beautiful self carriage and seemed very relaxed.
 
Irrespective of how the horse is bred, or for what purpose, the OP asked if it was too young to be ridden like this- bones mature at the same rate however a horse is bred and bones are too immature at this age- not to mention the lack of mental maturity required to work consistently in this advanced outline.
Simple answer to simple question :Yes- far too young.
 
saddlesore said:
I agree with those who have pointed out the double standards! Another thread on what to do with my 2yo is getting replies of do nothing , it's a baby let it grow , turn it out full time with other youngsters etc. However now it's fine to have a 2yo being dressage schooled because his sire is famous?! How odd...
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I agree very odd indeed....
 
saddlesore said:
I agree with those who have pointed out the double standards! Another thread on what to do with my 2yo is getting replies of do nothing , it's a baby let it grow , turn it out full time with other youngsters etc. However now it's fine to have a 2yo being dressage schooled because his sire is famous?! How odd...
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I know.
 
I do think there are now two (May be three) 'types' of horses within the high level competing world.

1. The horse aimed at young horse classes....they are bred purposely for this job and pushed while young and those that have involvement with them more or less expect them to break down by the age of 8(?)
2. The horse aimed at top level stuff e.g. Grand Prix dressage (valegro style) they are saved and waited for and not pushed till they are ready to ensure there is less damage. At the 2012 dressage Olympics......out of the top horses only 1 horse had ever contested a young horse class...I think this shows that the top horses were waited for and not pushed to the level expected of them at 'that age'
3. The grading stallion...... Bit like the guy in question....... Well where they sit I'm not sure. I guess now the owners have either option? Sit and wait (so becomes a well recognised stud at higher level) or push towards young horse classes (and retire to stud with these results alone?) I think people do either.....
 
Jsye said:
I think my main issue here is that everyone knows warmbloods are slow maturing. This colt has clearly been broken for a 'while' and has A LOT of maturing to do.

I feel like in current times money is put before all else - short term gains ahead of a long sound career. There are so many 'broken' horses aged 6,7,8 being advertised 'free to good home'.

Just because someone is a 'professional' doesn't mean they have the god given right to do whatever the hell they want. I've seen some god awful 'professionals'.

I will be very surprised if this colt is still sound by age 8. But hey as long as he sells for a high price now who cares whether he breaks down.
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In Germany this happens all the time. Stallions are presented for grading in November as they are rising 3. Horses are also presented for auction at the age of 3 going in this manner and some sell for hundreds of thousands and go on to have successful careers.
To say you doubt he will break down is a sweeping statement. The stallion Damon Hill is an example of a stallion who was presented as a 2 yr old for grading then did all the young horse world championships and as far as we know he is still sound.
 
windand rain said:
I wasnt really interested specifically in the Totillas youngstock but the warmblood market in general I know of many imports that have been sold to the uk that have broken down before they were 8 years old ...
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I thought continental producers looked at the UK as a decent market for their second rate horses? Hard to say they were breaking because of how they were started.

dieseldog said:
I thought it was interesting that they called it Tolegro - Totalis x Valegro
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Ugg, I know. Ugly and soulless or what?
 
If you look at the you tube posters other videos there is one of him working at home in a very quiet relaxed manner
 
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saddlesore said:
I agree with those who have pointed out the double standards! Another thread on what to do with my 2yo is getting replies of do nothing , it's a baby let it grow , turn it out full time with other youngsters etc. However now it's fine to have a 2yo being dressage schooled because his sire is famous?! How odd...
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It's not the famous sire, but a combination of an exceptional horse with good producers.

With the greatest will in the world, not many (if any?) on this forum would be able to ride that horse in that atmosphere. So saying how people react to this situation more favourably is double standards is, IMO, incorrect. If you have a precocious child and good teachers they progress far more rapidly than an average child with average teachers. Same with horses...

Realistically, this horse has his 3 basic paces under saddle 'installed' and not much else. That's 3 weeks work quite easily. He works into a contact because that's how horses are taught if they're being taught properly- not to fear or resist but that when they are working that is how they do it. I can find video footage I think of my sister's youngster being backed in 2012- she always worked into the contact and then at shows came much higher and tenser. But because she wasn't anywhere near as free moving as this horse, it looked much tidier and less extravagant.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of doing more than introducing tack and sitting on them at 3. Heck, the youngster on the yard (6 this year) wasn't backed til he was 5 because he was so awkward looking. But I think a 4yo being backed badly and taught to fear and resist the contact and being allowed to trail with its hocks and nose in different counties is just as damaging.
 
My interpretation is that he is standing at stud not for sale. He's almost three while I personally don't bacl mine until later it doesn't take much to have these well bred WB's to work in such a frame.

I have a friend who has a German WB pony - he's just turned three and is working like this only a couple of weeks under saddle - he offers the outline.

PS ALL horses regardless of breed mature at the same age between 5 - 6 years old.
 
only_me said:
As of jan 2014, it is 3. Just as my horse, born in July 2006, is 8 now.

We have no idea what month it was born, therefore we go by The year :)
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In the UK this used to be correct only for race horses. Riding horses were aged from April first. Is that not now true?
 
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I cant agree with riding horses so young in this way.
For me, the video of him working at home is almost worse as he's being ridden so badly- rider is sat in awful balance so banging down on his back and he's just being held pointlessly behind the vertical with no regard for anything else. Bad job on a lovely young horse.

Btw, 2 yr old stallion gradings are done in hand and he was graded (to much disgust from the public as his conformation is not correct) so no rush to produce under saddle, except greedy owners who want him to start raking in money now
 
Tnavas said:
PS ALL horses regardless of breed mature at the same age between 5 - 6 years old.
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I thought the neck growth plates did not seal until eight?

Whilst the skeleton may mature at the same rate for all horses, it doesn't mean that the body does.

A four year old TB which has been in riding horse type work a year will not, in my experience, normally look like a totally different horse at eight.

An IDxTB on the other hand, can look almost totally TB at four, and very, very draft by nine. I've seen warmbloods do the same.

Some horses also reach their full adult height much earlier than others, in my experience. I've had a three year old TB who did not grow a millimetre, and a draft cross who went from 16.1 at three to 17 hands at six. I don't think he was finished, either, but he died so I don't know.
 
Lolo said:
It's not the famous sire, but a combination of an exceptional horse with good producers.

With the greatest will in the world, not many (if any?) on this forum would be able to ride that horse in that atmosphere. So saying how people react to this situation more favourably is double standards is, IMO, incorrect. If you have a precocious child and good teachers they progress far more rapidly than an average child with average teachers. Same with horses...
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that anyone but a professional could ride that horse, that is not the point. The point is that under normal circumstances, everyone on this forum stresses how bad it is for young horse to be started early (most it would seem recommend 4) BUT because this one's daddy is famous it's fine for him to be dressage schooled as a 2yo? That was my, and many others, point. IMO it's bizarre double standards at best and to answer the OPs question, YES I think he's far too young to be being ridden like that. I don't care if he's 'long and low' at home- he's still only 2!
 
cptrayes said:
In the UK this used to be correct only for race horses. Riding horses were aged from April first. Is that not now true?
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That is what I had always been told and led to believe but when I was showing my Sec D inhand at a winter show I told the judge he was 2, 3 in May. The reply was a very curt 'he is a 3 yo then, class him as that!'
Now I class him as 'rising 5'
 
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