Disgraceful - Surely this horse is far too young?

TheMule said:
For me, the video of him working at home is almost worse as he's being ridden so badly- rider is sat in awful balance so banging down on his back and he's just being held pointlessly behind the vertical with no regard for anything else.
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I'm interested that you say this because I also didn't think the rider looked that good on the everyday video. I'm not a particularly experienced rider though and I wouldn't say I have a good eye. I'd really like to hear more expert views and learn a bit if anyone has the time to post.
 
saddlesore said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that anyone but a professional could ride that horse, that is not the point. The point is that under normal circumstances, everyone on this forum stresses how bad it is for young horse to be started early (most it would seem recommend 4) BUT because this one's daddy is famous it's fine for him to be dressage schooled as a 2yo? That was my, and many others, point. IMO it's bizarre double standards at best and to answer the OPs question, YES I think he's far too young to be being ridden like that. I don't care if he's 'long and low' at home- he's still only 2!
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I agree. Comparing a horse like Totalis to my native is like comparing a child of royal blood to the Artful Dodger BUT a horse is a horse and if I were showing a video of mine when he was that age being ridden and working at those 3 paces I dare say I woud have been damned by most on here.
 
Jsye said:
I've just come across this video on youtube ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvFbzMP33Vg

Am I one of the few who thinks this is totally disgusting to be riding a barely 3 year old horse like this?? IMO it's being pushed too far, too fast and too young.

I'm betting this horse will break down by age 5/6. Poor thing - bet it doesn't even know what it's like to be a baby horse and play.

Ugh.
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I am with you too young to have4 got this far barely three, bones are still growing IMO end up with problems with his legs.
 
cptrayes said:
In the UK this used to be correct only for race horses. Riding horses were aged from April first. Is that not now true?
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I think because of all affiliated classes (eventing, dressage etc.) go by the year (or jan 1st) it is now normal for all horses to age by jan 1st of the year.

Dont think it makes huge difference but I personally dont like rising used after horse has reached 7, eg. Classing a horse as rising 12 dosent really sound right :p
 
cptrayes said:
In the UK this used to be correct only for race horses. Riding horses were aged from April first. Is that not now true?
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Interesting as I was always told that racehorses in the Northern Hemisphere were aged on January 1st and all others on June 1st.

Here in NZ horses have their official birthday on August 1st. If they are born before that date they are still OK so long as their dam was served after the 1st of September.
 
Blimey and my 2011 gelding has had a saddle on twice ;)

FWIW it is "normal" on the continent to start horses in their 3-yo year. For their stallion grading/licensing a Mérens is meant to have a conformation class, and demonstrate abilities in dressage, SJ, XC and driving in the August of their 3rd year.
 
I wasn't saying it's ok because the horse is exceptional- if you read my entire post I say that at 3 I don't think horses should be ridden beyond potentially an introduction to weight on their backs.

I was trying to say that actually, with a talented and experienced team on a very expressive horse, that's probably a month of work from being initially backed to get the horse to that stage. Whereas for most people on here, it's more like 6 or 7 months. Because most lack experience in comparison to these people who do it every single day.
 
Aside from debating the rights or wrongs of riding a horse at this age, this is partly forced on the continental breeders as the european stud books grade the stallions at 3yo and a lot are expected to be under saddle, particularly some of the German studbooks.

KWPN (Dutch) is probably the most rigorous licensing to get through. They start inspecting the potential stallions in hand and at liberty as late 2yo around November. They then go on to further rounds of the approval and the final approvals have just taken place earlier this month. The stallions have to pass a rigorous vetting including x-rays and scoping of the airways and then go on to the ridden performance testing as 3yo and pending a successful outcome will be licensed. They do sometimes delay the ridden testing if the licensing committee thinks the stallion needs more time to mature physically/mentally.
Only once they have passed that do they get provisional approval to cover. They still have to go through the ridden stallion competitions successfully and have satisfactory offspring reports for several years before they get lifetime approval at 14yo.

Most of the German studbooks will give lifetime approval at 3yo, although the Oldenburger Verband stallions have to either undertake further performance testing or be placed in the Bundeschampionat.

Most of the UK studbooks will grade stallions at an older age. My boy is rising 4yo and I'm only just starting the backing process now and don't plan to grade him until he is out under saddle and competing successfully. In mainland europe that would mostly preclude him from ever being graded unless he turned out to be a superstar international horse.
 
Jsye said:
Each to their own but imo it's too young to be doing that level of 'schooling' especially since it probably isn't 3 years old yet
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I agree. My friend is a veterinary physio and she has seen horses pushed too far and too young and has to mop up the mess afterwards.

These big quick growing WB's are still babies at the end of the day and their frames are not strong enough to take the weight of the rider or the work put onto their still forming joints.

Ascending from the coffin bone, which is fused at birth, up to and including the small bones of the knee requires between 1 ½ to 2 ½ years for complete ossification to take place. From here upwards and finally to the spinal column - comprised of 32 vertebrae with multiple growth plates and the last to fuse - the conversion process takes a minimum of 5 ½ years depending on the size and sex of the horse. As a general rule the larger the horse, the longer the time required for ossification where it is possible in some cases for horses not to reach full maturity until the age of 8

The short pastern takes 9-12 months to fully form. The long pastern 13-15 months. Thne distal radius 3 to 3.5 years (this is the major weight bearing bone of the hind leg - the equivalent of our thigh).
Top of the humerous 3 - 3.5 years
And the major weight bearing scapula is 3 to 3.5 years to reach maturity.

Personally, those that think that riding a three year old to the level this horse is ridden.... may I ask you a question? Would you still ride a three year old like this given the information you have just read?
 
It's a no brainer for me. It doesn't matter if you are the best producer in the world, the best rider/nutrionist/qualified vet/breeder, etc it still won't make that colt's (or any young horse's) skeleton mature any faster or better. In fact knowing what we know now about growth rates of the horses skeleton, I think it's more irresponsible for 'professionals' to be producing them ridden at such an early age. Tbh, he could be the most talented, uphill extravagant mover and that still won't make any difference - just because he can doesn't mean he should. The last of the bones to fuse are that of the vertical column (at around 5.5 years old) and this little chap has quite a big fella riding him at 2 years already. Oh and the video of him at home - doesn't look long and low to me (not that I think that's any good), he just looks behind the vertical. Maybe he isn't being worked that hard, I hope not but he's more likely to have physiological problems as a result of being ridden that young. This makes for an interesting read:

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
 
I'm not 100% convinced on that though if honest, or that people should wait until everything is fused - kids do sports after all.
 
Disgusting? No, but they could have waited a bit and taken less of a chance of overstressing young bones and muscles. Likely to result in breakdown? Probably not, I don't think he's working overly hard, although I wouldn't break one that young myself. They can get hurt for any reason at any time, a little bit of light work at 3 will help to build the muscles for riding and give a young brain something to think about. Working in a good frame (not with nose on chest!) using the muscles properly from the start would be better than trailing about the place using the locomotor muscles and hurting the back by being hollow.

I agree there probably hasn't been much work done and a professional would get results very quickly. BUUUT if that's the case, I don't see what harm there would have been in leaving him until he was actually 3 instead of his 3yo year. What if he was born in November, he'd be very really actually 2 despite being in his 3yo year.

Producers of horses like this are in the game to make money (that's not a criticism!) and therefore they want the horse to achieve as much as possible in the shortest period of time, so they can sell him and move onto the next one. I doubt that the horses are compromised much, because the producers have a reputation to maintain. They have to balance the need to have money coming in against the level of work the horse can sustain without injury; most of us on here don't have any such issues so there is more benefit in going super-slowly - we can't take the chance because there is less reward in doing so.
 
ester said:
I'm not 100% convinced on that though if honest, or that people should wait until everything is fused - kids do sports after all.
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No I agree, but at a very young age there is more to go wrong after all. As for kids, they are not carrying a rider as well as themselves ;)
 
doriangrey said:
No I agree, but at a very young age there is more to go wrong after all. As for kids, they are not carrying a rider as well as themselves ;)
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Surely the research into heavy school bags damaging children's spines is more comparable to the overloading of young horses. I don't know if anyone has done any research into what constitutes overloading a young horse though. I believe the research that arrived at the 20% rule was done on adult horses.
 
applecart14 said:
Personally, those that think that riding a three year old to the level this horse is ridden.... may I ask you a question? Would you still ride a three year old like this given the information you have just read?
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Yup. Been doing it for nigh on 40 years and havn't had one go wrong BECAUSE of the riding yet. I have a 16 year old that I broke at 3 here now that is still performing at a high level, sound as a pound, and I have kept track of most of my "graduates". Not all have been sound always, as is the nature of horses everywhere, but I can't say there have been very many injuries caused by their training.

The horse in the video is not actually doing very much, just walk, trot and canter, something that any decent pro rider could achieve in a matter of weeks. I am an ex pro that specialised in breaking and have had, I would say, upwards of 400 three year olds through my hands over 40 or so years. Amongst that there would of course be horses which did not stay sound (I can recall 3), but that is always going to be the case over that many horses and I can't say that leaving them would have made a difference since most of those were injuries which could have occurred at any time. In fact the one which stands out was a 6 year old Arabian which bowed a tendon. He had been "left to mature" by his doting owner and was completely unfit. He actually did the leg out in the pasture and had to go home before being backed.
 
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why does everybody insist on assuming the worst that they are all "money grabbers" bullying and abusing the horse....that horse is worth nothing if it breaks down.

secondly I am currently riding a 3 YO mare (show coloured)....her owner (my instructor) and myself backed her at the end of summer and until 3 weeks ago she has done nothing since. within a week she was happily working in an outline which she offered naturally. I ride a forward in to a very light contact, she has not been forced and bullied in to anything. Now she happily walk trots and canters in a soft outline. she is only ridden twice a week... we're taking it slowly but probably no slower that was taken for the stallion in question.

its your own choice/opinion but don't jump to conclusions without ALL the facts
 
Someone on here got shot down for sitting on her just turned 3 yo pony and plodding down the road! Can't believe how many are now saying it's ok to be working them that much at such a young age!
 
How ever its dressed up, this is a young immature horse still growing in body ans sole - tendons etc. Let it grow up for Christ sake before serious work starts.

No different than a four year old being asked to jump 5ft in competitions, legs cannot cope end result horse with knackered hocks. I don't know why people are in such a hurry to make young animals grow up.
 
Walking, trotting and cantering is not serious work. Working on the bit is not serious work. It is normal for horses to be doing this sort of basic stuff. There is no "abuse" going on, it is perfectly normal for a three year old to walk, trot and canter under saddle after a couple of weeks under saddle. The horse is a three year old (this year), is a purpose-bred sport horse with professional training and, I would be willing to bet, the very best care and concern for it's wellbeing throughout it's life. The VAST majority of top horses competing in dressage today have probably been through exactly the same sort of preparation with no perceivable deleterious affects. Chucking this horse out into a field until it is 4,5,6 is not going to enhance it's training.
 
Cortez said:
Walking, trotting and cantering is not serious work. Working on the bit is not serious work. It is normal for horses to be doing this sort of basic stuff. There is no "abuse" going on, it is perfectly normal for a three year old to walk, trot and canter under saddle after a couple of weeks under saddle. The horse is a three year old (this year), is a purpose-bred sport horse with professional training and, I would be willing to bet, the very best care and concern for it's wellbeing throughout it's life. The VAST majority of top horses competing in dressage today have probably been through exactly the same sort of preparation with no perceivable deleterious affects. Chucking this horse out into a field until it is 4,5,6 is not going to enhance it's training.
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Which means he was broken in at two, which is too young, I am a firm believer that you do ground work till they are 3 then back them till 3 1/2 then give them a holiday/turn them away for a while. Then comes more work under saddle *example* The Irish Draught horse's knees knit later so have to not serious competing till at least 5.

Which is most likely why there are a lot of large horses out there with knackered legs. Why the rush to put them in full work is beyond meat such a young age.
 
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I have read the entire thread with interest. Not one person on here actually knows how much work the colt has had or for long. All are guessing! I honestly thought the colt looked like he had been recently started, his muscle development does not suggest a horse in regular work and his paces seemed natural not taught. I have seen a few 3 year old well bred WB colts and have been taken aback by what they offer naturally. Interesting comment that these type of horses often find long and low hard as they are not built for it. I just saw a nicely started young horse and would be interested in seeing him progress.
 
julie111 said:
Someone on here got shot down for sitting on her just turned 3 yo pony and plodding down the road! Can't believe how many are now saying it's ok to be working them that much at such a young age!
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Well that is the thing about a forum, different people have different views. Has anyone who slated the girl who plodded down the road on her pony defended Tolegro's backers?

If I was backing a horse I'd go much slower than Cortez, not because I feel Cortez is too fast but because I'm not as good as she is. I have to do things far more carefully because I can't see the signals she can.
 
Luci07 said:
I have read the entire thread with interest. Not one person on here actually knows how much work the colt has had or for long. All are guessing! I honestly thought the colt looked like he had been recently started, his muscle development does not suggest a horse in regular work and his paces seemed natural not taught. I have seen a few 3 year old well bred WB colts and have been taken aback by what they offer naturally. Interesting comment that these type of horses often find long and low hard as they are not built for it. I just saw a nicely started young horse and would be interested in seeing him progress.
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True, and that's why I said in my post that maybe he isn't being worked that hard, but then again maybe he is so the guessing works both ways ;) Anyway, too much too young is no good for any horse imo.
 
It does NOT take several months to get a talented, uphill horse working like this. Within a few weeks this can be achieved, riding approx. 3 times a week. The rest is up to good lunging.
My 3 1/2 year old stallion was ridden yesterday for the tenth time and already showed a very steady contact. He wasn't in such an uphill outline at Tolegro, but he isn't as talented either (oh, I wish...)

Too much is no good, doing nothing can bore a young horse. Some fair exercise can be good to improve growing bones, muscles and tendons, as long at the horse isn't pushed. Nobody knows this horses training schedule, therefore you can't really say that it will be "broken" as a 6-year-old.

At least the most of the Germans let the horses be horses and turn them out. The Dutch on the other hand think it makes sport horses lazy and would love to wrap their horse up in bubble wrap.
 
Anybody seen the video on their website, I'm guessing from a stallion show/grading....I would not like to be having to keep up running along side that trot! Beautiful moving horse though.
 
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