Disgusted at behaviour of the hunt

[Fiagai]

It's quite amazing that new bloods appear to have no real appreciation of what hunting over the last couple of centuries has contributed to present day hunting activities. Continued access to the countryside and the goodwill of rural communities has been built up over many years.

The service that existing hunts offer for the purposes of predator
control continues even after the Hunt Act albeit in a different form.

Generations of enlightened self interest has ensured that in the countryside a healthy rural fox populations has been managed at least up to recent times. Coverts were known and maintained by landholders and hunts alike. Something alas that is being replaced by largely unmanaged methods.

All hunting activity today whether drag, trail or otherwise stands on the shoulders of those have gone
before us. Such community ties built up cannot simply derided because by the thinking that such things can be simply abandoned because they are preceived as somehow old fashioned.

It is also remarkable to see relative newcomers deriding the knowledge and wisdom of the posters who have been involved in hunting over many years.

And by the way Santa-Paws the comment about Vodka was a humorous aside! But it's could to know that the tipple of choice is that which fuels the drunk and fallover of certain portions of youth culture and by the way I sleep very well especially after a long day in the field as I have always done....

 

[cptrayes]

Other than killing foxes which is done in my area by marksmen, fox hunts do NOTHING for the countryside that is not also done by my local drag pack.

Stop kidding yourselves that farmers need you, guys, they don't!

 

[cptrayes]

Santa Paws


I'm sure that SOME newcomers to the countryside do maintain their properties better than SOME established farmers, but you imply that all newcomers are better than all established farmers - incredibly arrogant !

I said property after property, not all properties, and it is nothing but a FACT.

Sabs do follow hunts that are hunting within the law, despite what you may say. They hope to be able to both disrupt the day and potentially find evidence to prove the hunt has broken the law. Therefore the hunts that have suffered from sabs following in the pre-ban do tend to be reluctant to openly publicise their meet cards.

Because they are failing to call their hounds off "accidental" fox scents maybe, when they riot. As long as hounds are not called off live quarry and the field continues to follow hounds following live quarry the sabs will follow the hunts. Drag packs are not sabbed. If their hounds do ever follow live scent the field does not follow.

You say shooting is a better option. If the shooter is a marks man then possibly it may no worse. However it does not take into account the other aspects to hunting with hounds, ie dispersal of numbers, the natural selection (fitter stronger foxes normally get away) etc. In normal circumstances with average marksman it is worse, the foxes are injured left to die slow painful deaths.

I'm sick to death of the "foxes left to die slow and painful deaths" argument. I've never, ever seen a shot fox corpse or dying shot fox thought I see plenty of live ones and ride all over this countryside, which is controlled by marksmen for the deer and the fox. You will never stop uneducated louts with air guns causing problems, but they exist whether you cull fox with hounds or with a marksman. Fitter stronger foxes get away - yes, they do, so you can chase them another day and another day until you finally get to chase one that is old or sick and get it. Just what you want when you're old or sick, eh? Or maybe it's better if you are young instead, and inside a wood where you were born, and a ring of people are put around the outside to make a noise so you won't dare to leave the wood while a bunch of young hounds are put in to learn how to kill you while you are trapped? Cubbing, or "early season hunting" as the marketers have re-branded it????

Hunts provide an invaluable service to farmers which is why so many of them are happy to open up their land to allow the hunts across. The only way the hunts can survive is through its subscribers and members therefore followers are important to the hunt. So although many followers may not directly help out the farmers indirectly they do.

You do NOTHING that my local drag pack does not also do.

And before you say this website is for all, I would agree that it is, but its provided by the Horse and Hound magazine which is pro hunting and its readership is traditionally also pro hunting.

It is provided by Horse and Hound magazine because it generates ENORMOUS advertising revenues and long running arguments like this one are the life blood of this forum.

The readership was traditionally pro hunting a LONG time ago. As I have said to others, times have changed and you need to as well.

 

[AengusOg]

Round and around and around we go...

Santa...since the hunting ban, there are 'marksmen' killing more foxes now than ever before

 

[cptrayes]

Round and around and around we go...

Santa...since the hunting ban, there are 'marksmen' killing more foxes now than ever before

I don't actually have any problem with that Aengus. The brown hare population, a threatened species, is burgeoning because of it.

 

[TwoPair]

Drag packs are not sabbed.

And I will say again that drag packs ARE sabbed - I have been out with a BLOODHOUND pack that have been sabbed. Christ, bloodhounds don't even look like foxhounds. They don't even look like they could even vaguely chase a fox.

Santa Paws if you are going to keep spouting, don't make yourself look arrogant (as you are accusing others of being) by acting holier than thou and saying sabs don't intervene with drag packs, when more than one person has said they have been witness to it / told of it. By keeping on saying that sabs don't or won't target drag packs you are either a) calling those who have witnessed it liars or b) so entrenched in your beliefs that you won't accept you are wrong and that it does happen (which is what you are accusing others of).

 

[cptrayes]

And I will say again that drag packs ARE sabbed - I have been out with a BLOODHOUND pack that have been sabbed. Christ, bloodhounds don't even look like foxhounds. They don't even look like they could even vaguely chase a fox.

How many times? Do they sab you week after week or were they sensible enough to take the message that you hunt the clean boot once? Sabbing once is a silly mistake. The sabbing that is going on week after week is because sabs are seeing hounds hunt fox. I was told so myself two weeks ago by the secretary of a hunt which is regularly sabbed.

Santa Paws if you are going to keep spouting, don't make yourself look arrogant (as you are accusing others of being) by acting holier than thou and saying sabs don't intervene with drag packs, when more than one person has said they have been witness to it / told of it. By keeping on saying that sabs don't or won't target drag packs you are either a) calling those who have witnessed it liars or b) so entrenched in your beliefs that you won't accept you are wrong and that it does happen (which is what you are accusing others of).

I do apologise TwoPair. You obviously missed the part of my previous postings where, far from calling anyone a liar, I acknowledged that a bloodhound pack had been sabbed once.

I hardly think that it counts in the whole scale of the discussion do you? If drags and bloodhounds were sabbed week after week it would support the fox hunters excuses for keeping their meets a secret.

But they aren't.

As a rule, apart from one isolated exception, drag/bloodhound packs are NOT sabbed and there is no point suggesting that one mistake makes the slightest difference to the argument.

I maintain my position, if hunts called off hounds as soon as they could from a live scent, and the mounted followers were held until the hounds were returned to the trail, as happens with a drag meet, then sabs would not sab for many weeks before they became totally bored with standing the cold and wet. They'd go and find some bird shooters to annoy instead.

 

[NeilM]

fox hunts do NOTHING for the countryside that is not also done by my local drag pack.

As someone on the verge of taking up hunting, I have been watching this thread slightly bemused. There have been well made, as well as pedantic and nit picking points from both camps, but the comment above has a worrying implication.

SP; are you accusing every hunt that has foxhounds of hunting illegally?

 

[cptrayes]

As someone on the verge of taking up hunting, I have been watching this thread slightly bemused. There have been well made, as well as pedantic and nit picking points from both camps, but the comment above has a worrying implication.

SP; are you accusing every hunt that has foxhounds of hunting illegally?

What on earth has your question got to do with the quote, Neil, I'm baffled??

No, of course I am not accusing every hunt of hunting illegally and I never have. But some do.

 

[EAST KENT]

Whatever Santa Paws is on should be avoided

 

[Fiagai]

Hunts. Are still providing a predator control service to landowners albeit flushing same to guns. Traditional hunts know more about the population of foxes than any other group or individuals. Landowners know this and continue to work with landowners. Landowners in turn continue to allow access for hunting. This is a service that Drag hunts do not provide. Why should any landowners allow those who provide no service in return? Where they do it is more often in recognition of the historic relationship that had existed in the services provided by hunts.

Drag hunting sits on the shoulders of traditional fox
hunting and cannot be separated from it.

To continue to have access for hunting I would suggest that no one should attempt to either ignore or alienate the last real ties between fox hunting and
landowners.

It is an interesting development to have those who claim to be part of the hunting tradition but are standing on the same ground as Anti's deriding all that are not of their thinking!

 

[AengusOg]

I don't actually have any problem with that Aengus. The brown hare population, a threatened species, is burgeoning because of it.

Because of what?

 

[NeilM]

What on earth has your question got to do with the quote, Neil, I'm baffled??

No, of course I am not accusing every hunt of hunting illegally and I never have. But some do.

So by "foxhunts" do you mean those packs which you claim are hunting illegally?

I don't understand the difference in the quote between a 'foxhunts' and a 'local drag pack'.

Just to be clear on my position; I would not go out with a pack that I knew had the intention of killing a fox, for two reasons: 1) I would not knowingly wish to break the law. 2) After many years of hunting with guns, traps, snares and hawks, I now choose not to kill animals. Vermin control is a service offered by many skilled hunters, but I am no longer one of them.

All of that said, I am not anti-hunting, quite the opposite, I think the hunting ban is an appalling piece of legislation which was driven in parliament by left wing politicians looking to 'have a go at the toffs'.

 

[cptrayes]

Hunts. Are still providing a predator control service to landowners albeit flushing same to guns. Traditional hunts know more about the population of foxes than any other group or individuals. Landowners know this and continue to work with landowners. Landowners in turn continue to allow access for hunting. This is a service that Drag hunts do not provide. Why should any landowners allow those who provide no service in return? Where they do it is more often in recognition of the historic relationship that had existed in the services provided by hunts.

The farmers around here, an area which is not covered by a hunt, would laugh themselves stupid at your idea that a Hunt would have more idea where foxes operate on his farm than he does. And marksmen to killl them are easy to get hold of

Drag hunting sits on the shoulders of traditional fox
hunting and cannot be separated from it.

To continue to have access for hunting I would suggest that no one should attempt to either ignore or alienate the last real ties between fox hunting and
landowners.

It is an interesting development to have those who claim to be part of the hunting tradition but are standing on the same ground as Anti's deriding all that are not of their thinking!

This is utter total complete b8ll8cks!

Do you really deceive yourselves that badly?

The two drag packs with which I hunt have their own kennels. They have a meat run and slaughter for farmers and horse owners. They have never been affiliated to a fox hunt and the one I subscribe to this year has been offered more and more land every year to hunt over. They are out today (I'm too sick) after double the amount of December rainfall that is normal. The ground has standing water everywhere and yet the goodwill we have with the farmers means that the meet is still on.



Fiagai if you are going to continue to argue please stop foooling yourself that your hunt is needed for the essential services it provides! There are plenty of areas of this country not "served" by a fox pack and they seem to manage just hunky dory without you.

 

[cptrayes]

So by "foxhunts" do you mean those packs which you claim are hunting illegally?

I don't understand the difference in the quote between a 'foxhunts' and a 'local drag pack'.

Just to be clear on my position; I would not go out with a pack that I knew had the intention of killing a fox, for two reasons: 1) I would not knowingly wish to break the law. 2) After many years of hunting with guns, traps, snares and hawks, I now choose not to kill animals. Vermin control is a service offered by many skilled hunters, but I am no longer one of them.

All of that said, I am not anti-hunting, quite the opposite, I think the hunting ban is an appalling piece of legislation which was driven in parliament by left wing politicians looking to 'have a go at the toffs'.

OK Neil, I'm sorry I didn't realise that you were completely new to hunting.

Drag packs don't hunt live quarry and never did, they were set up to hunt a scent, sometimes laid by a horse and sometimes by a man. Bloodhound packs also hunt a man, but with no scent, and that's called hunting the clean boot.

If you want to absolutely guarantee never to chase live quarry, hunt with a drag pack or bloodhounds. It's a damned good day, I'm spitting that I couldn't get out this afternoon

If you want to go with what was a fox pack, you'll have to ask them. There are at least two packs openly hunting fox and another which will happily allow the hounds to divert off a laid trail if they pick up a live scent, so you may have some trouble ensuring that you will definitely not hunt live quarry. And here is your Catch-22:

If you are completely unknown to them and they do not trust you they will tell you the they hunt a trail even if they don't, and you may find it difficult after that to find out where they are meeting in case they think you are a sab. You will need to find someone in the area who trusts you and is trusted by them to ask the question with or for you. (And hope that they are not a loca-to-here Harrier Pack whose website said that they would not allow anyone to hunt with them unless they have a Countryside Alliance membership. )

I have no idea if any pack in your area is hunting illegally, but I have a friend who hunts a lot in your area and I will ask her if you PM me with your email address and identify who you are (my ID is my logon name usually, but it's at the bottom now ).

 

[cptrayes]

All of that said, I am not anti-hunting, quite the opposite, I think the hunting ban is an appalling piece of legislation which was driven in parliament by left wing politicians looking to 'have a go at the toffs'.

I absolutely agree with you on the origin of the act, and would add that it was done to win votes, which was truly disgusting abuse of parliamentary time and politics when there were far more important things to be discussing, like security of our national energy supply!

Every time I make any criticism of fox hunting I am addressed as if I am some rabid anti. It would be so much better for the image of fox hunting if they could simply agree that some of us are completely justified in our feelings that hunting live quarry is not the right thing for us to do, and sort out the stuff they are being justfiably criticised for.

 

[Fiagai]

Santa_paws - you really don't have a clue do you bless!

Hunts work with landowners. In the past many hunts protected and managed coverts. Hunt staff and subscribers were local and often landowners themselves. Where there was s problem fox it was hunted at the request of the landowners. The goodwill that exists between hunts and landowners is based on this and other links. For some one who claims such a short history of (drag) hunting you appear to overtly opinionated view of everything you don't like. From untidy landowners/farmers, fox hunting, and shooting you appear to believe your opinions are somehow god given.

I notice that you have acknowledged that you don't care that increasing numbers of foxes are shot. Well I do. A proper balance of foxes and their prey is important. Mindless and unmanaged hunting does no
favour for any species. When will the shooting stop - when the fox population is near extinction? Ok we will have plenty of hares, landowners with forestry will be delighted I'm sure...

No one is taken in by your rantings S_P. It is clear from you have posted here and your blatant allegations against all and sundry that you are simply an Anti in another form. You do yourself or this forum any benefit.

 

[cptrayes]

Whatever Santa Paws is on should be avoided

Urghh .

Oxymetazoline.
Paracetamol.
Menthol.

If I'm lucky in a minute and there is any left, mulled Merlot.

I hope you feel better than me

 

[Orangehorse]

The trouble with the doubt about what is and is not done on a day's hunting is the truly terrible way the Bill was drawn up by the Government.

Some pre-ban foxhunts state quite plainly that they hunt a trail, there is one locally that is on the edge of a large urban population in a small country and I expect it makes life a lot easier for them to set a trail and follow it.

Others state that the "hunt within the law" - I am sure they do, as they always announce it at every meet. That means that they will use the "exemptions" that were put into the Bill.

 

[cptrayes]

Santa_paws - you really don't have a clue do you bless!

No, I'm a sad case Fiagai, I really am. Someone should cull me

From untidy landowners/farmers, fox hunting, and shooting you appear to believe your opinions are somehow god given.

I'm an atheist, my opinions are certainly not God given, but it is the law to have free speech in this country so I will continue to challenge you if I believe that you are wrong.

When will the shooting stop - when the fox population is near extinction? Ok we will have plenty of hares, landowners with forestry will be delighted I'm sure...

You write as if the hunt had total control over everyone who kills fox, which of course you did not.

You also write as if hunts killed the majority of foxes which were killed in their area, which is of course nonsense. When hunting with hounds was legal, most foxes were killed by other means. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I recall that it was a substantial majority.

Farmers will continue to remove fox that bother their stock as they always did before hunting was ever banned and boys with air guns will continue to come into the countryside to lamp for fun, as they always did.



Not sure about your comment about landowners with Forestry? Can you explain.

 

[Fiagai]

Well S_P

If you truly knew anything about traditional fox hunting then you would know that this was how fox populations were managed. Anyone showing up wishing to take pot shots were given a quick boot in the pants by landowners who worked with the hunts. This allowed for landowners to know who was on their land and when. No landowner I know would allow random lampers

 

[Fiagai]

Meant to add that if you know anything about the countryside then you would know about hares...
But then you thinking lamping foxes is 'fun' - you really are a box of contraindications arn't you!

 

[cptrayes]

Well S_P

If you truly knew anything about traditional fox hunting then you would know that this was how fox populations were managed. Anyone showing up wishing to take pot shots were given a quick boot in the pants by landowners who worked with the hunts. This allowed for landowners to know who was on their land and when. No landowner I know would allow random lampers

You persist in accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about and you persists in writing things that show that I know far more about what goes on in some parts of countyside life than you do.

There are many places where people lamp and cannot be seen from any farmhouse. Farmers do not have overnight patrol units guarding their land and are in bed when they are not lambing.

There are many people who would not be so crazy as to approach people of unknown temperament, carrying guns out hunting without permission after dark.

 

[cptrayes]

Meant to add that if you know anything about the countryside then you would know about hares...
But then you thinking lamping foxes is 'fun' - you really are a box of contraindications arn't you!

Am I to take it from you that you think the brown hare lives in woods? Do please explain, because if yours do they are a different breed from ours, which live in long grass.

I don't think lamping foxes is fun. But I know for a certainty that the boys from Oldham who go out on Saddleworth Moor doing it think it's terrific.

 

[Fiagai]

Oh deary me S_P

No I don't mean hares live in woods. And as you appear to be on first terms with lampers and their habits I can tell you that those who live and farm the countryside know alot more than you give them credit for. One of the many benefits of landowners and hunts working together. I know of one bunch of rehire who tried this and got an armed escort of property they were illegally lamping on. But you appear to approve of unregulated hunting
and the decimation of foxes so I presume that such activities are ok then?

 

[Alec Swan]

You persist in accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about and you persists in writing things that show that I know far more about what goes on in some parts of countyside life than you do.

There are many places where people lamp and cannot be seen from any farmhouse. Farmers do not have overnight patrol units guarding their land and are in bed when they are not lambing.

There are many people who would not be so crazy as to approach people of unknown temperament, carrying guns out hunting without permission after dark.

cptrayes, or what ever your new guise is, over the last year, or so, you've entertained us with your hypothesised nonsense, and the strange thing is, and I'll include myself in this, you've managed to entrap others in debate.

There is a simple fact which you seem to overlook; you argue from the standpoint of someone with little or no experience, and those of us daft enough to engage you in debate, make little or no progress, because you, in reality, haven't the faintest idea what you're on about, have you?

rockysmum, I'm sorry if you find me arrogant, but were you to argue with someone who insists upon laying down factual statements, as evidence, which the bulk of us know to be nonsense, would you not become a little impatient?

Fiagai, Judgemental, NeillM, AengusOg et all, again we are involved with a cpt discussion. Explain something to me, if you are able, what on earth is the point?

I have no wish to be offensive, but occasionally in life, we meet those to whom "You can't put it, where it wont go", applies. Continue, if you wish to educate, but I suspect that you'll give up, as I now am.

Alec.

 

[Judgemental]

cptrayes, or what ever your new guise is, over the last year, or so, you've entertained us with your hypothesised nonsense, and the strange thing is, and I'll include myself in this, you've managed to entrap others in debate.

There is a simple fact which you seem to overlook; you argue from the standpoint of someone with little or no experience, and those of us daft enough to engage you in debate, make little or no progress, because you, in reality, haven't the faintest idea what you're on about, have you?

rockysmum, I'm sorry if you find me arrogant, but were you to argue with someone who insists upon laying down factual statements, as evidence, which the bulk of us know to be nonsense, would you not become a little impatient?

Fiagai, Judgemental, NeillM, AengusOg et all, again we are involved with a cpt discussion. Explain something to me, if you are able, what on earth is the point?

I have no wish to be offensive, but occasionally in life, we meet those to whom "You can't put it, where it wont go", applies. Continue, if you wish to educate, but I suspect that you'll give up, as I now am.

Alec.

Alec I am flattered you included me with elite of debaters on this thread.

However I have to confess to having retired somewhat bemused about 20 pages ago. What, JM bemused, can't hack it any more.

What does strike me is how long this thread has become and not the least unamicable comment or reposte. That might be a slight overstatement but hey....

Everybody is being most charming to one another.

 

[TwoPair]

Gosh this runs and runs. Santa Paws - this pack were sabbed a couple of times, but the field master didn't actually have chance to stop and speak to them to tell the that the chap running at the front in lycra wasn't actually just out for a Sunday stroll - as you well know, drag packs aren't slow, and a field masters job is constant.

 

[cptrayes]

Oh deary me S_P

No I don't mean hares live in woods. And as you appear to be on first terms with lampers and their habits I can tell you that those who live and farm the countryside know alot more than you give them credit for. One of the many benefits of landowners and hunts working together. I know of one bunch of rehire who tried this and got an armed escort of property they were illegally lamping on. But you appear to approve of unregulated hunting
and the decimation of foxes so I presume that such activities are ok then?

Why do you presume? You are incorrect. It does not take approval to recognise the joy that illegal hunters get from their activities, which is why I can understand why fox hunters are also doing it.

You think one armed escort one night for one bunch that happened to be spotted can remove illegal lamping over vast tracts of sparsely populated land? Don't make me laugh.

 

[cptrayes]

Gosh this runs and runs. Santa Paws - this pack were sabbed a couple of times, but the field master didn't actually have chance to stop and speak to them to tell the that the chap running at the front in lycra wasn't actually just out for a Sunday stroll - as you well know, drag packs aren't slow, and a field masters job is constant.

OK you were sabbed twice by some spectacularly stupid sabs

I am referring to one hunt that I know of direct from the secretary's mouth are hunting fox routinely and sabbed routinely because of it.

I still believe that if hunts follow trail, call hounds off a live scent as soon as they can, and hold the field until hounds are retreived, that sabbing will simply disappear.

I believe that because no drag or bloodhound pack is systematically sabbed.