Do I have grounds for a refund?

[Lexie01]

Hi, just wondering if anyone has been in this position before and what they did.
We purchased a pony a few weeks ago - it was sold as a 148 pony. It seemed quite large in the videos I was sent so I questioned and was told that she had had 2 previous JMB measurements - the last one being 146.8 2 years previously when she was 6. I checked the JMB database and this was correct.
Within 3 weeks of purchase we took her to our nearest JMB measurer and the smallest they could get her to measure in was 151. She was extremely relaxed, had feet trimmed etc.
I contacted the previous owner and basically said that I had not 'prepared' the pony enough for the measuring. When. I asked her to clarify what this meant she said
My daughter needs the pony to measure in as 148 to jump BS juniors.

 

[ihatework]

I think you need to speak to an equestrian based lawyer. It’s a niche area of dispute

 

[Red-1]

As far as I am concerned, the pony was advertised at a certain height, and isn't. What it measured 2 years ago is neither here nor there, it was sold as 148, and it isn't. That should be grounds for a refund. I would have thought small claims would cover it, as long as the cost wasn't over a certain amount, that escapes me.

 

[fetlock]

A previous height dispute which ended up in court.

https://andersonstrathern.co.uk/news-insight/the-sale-of-a-pony-a-judicial-neigh-for-the-purchaser/

 

[The Xmas Furry]

If the pony didnt have a current life height on it, why not?
It was very close as a 6 yr old.
You need a specialist lawyer as ihw says. But you are nuts for buying without a current or life jmb height cert!

 

[AnShanDan]

This could be a tricky one for you. Measurement of ponies is pretty critical and can massively affect their value.
They have to be measured twice by different vets and the second measurement has to be at 7+.
146.8 to 151 is a big jump but they can really stand up very tall sometimes. That's why all the FEI ponies are measured routinely so they don't react to just getting measured.
What did the vendor suggest you do to prep the pony more??
(I can guess).

 

[Lexie01]

This could be a tricky one for you. Measurement of ponies is pretty critical and can massively affect their value.
They have to be measured twice by different vets and the second measurement has to be at 7+.
146.8 to 151 is a big jump but they can really stand up very tall sometimes. That's why all the FEI ponies are measured routinely so they don't react to just getting measured.
What did the vendor suggest you do to prep the pony more??
(I can guess).

Hi, she accused my excellent farrier of not taking enough foot off and that I should have exercised her beforehand. I understand that some owners do this to release 'energy' from some ponies who are liable to get a bit stressed but I can't tell you how chilled this pony is. The vet who measured her said her feet were perfect and she was very relaxed throughout the whole process.

 

[Lexie01]

As far as I am concerned, the pony was advertised at a certain height, and isn't. What it measured 2 years ago is neither here nor there, it was sold as 148, and it isn't. That should be grounds for a refund. I would have thought small claims would cover it, as long as the cost wasn't over a certain amount, that escapes me.

Thanks - unfortunately it was a lot over the amount for small claims. Sold as a top 148 showjumper/eventer!

 

[ihatework]

Thanks - unfortunately it was a lot over the amount for small claims. Sold as a top 148 showjumper/eventer!

You need specialist advice!!!
REALLY daft to spend megabucks on a 148 without a current certificate. But that doesn’t mean you won’t have any legal comeback.

This is not a forum conundrum!

 

[AnShanDan]

151 to 148 is a fair drop and if you say the pony is really chilled that makes it even harder. That said I've seen a tense pony go from 153 to 148, it took an hour but he got there.
Nightmare for you. I agree you may well have to get legal advice.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Was it a private seller or a dealer. AFAIK a private seller is only deemed to be mis-selling if they knowingly misrepresent the pony. She had good reason to believe pony would measure in so in that case I can't see you have case. If it was a dealer, you have more rights. Get legal advice asap. X

 

[Tiddlypom]

You do need legal advice.

I presume that you had the pony vetted as it was not cheap. Knowing what you wanted the pony for, did the vet not advise you to get the pony measured again?

A bit of research would have told you how the height certificates work these days.

 

[Lexie01]

You need specialist advice!!!
REALLY daft to spend megabucks on a 148 without a current certificate. But that doesn’t mean you won’t have any legal comeback.

This is not a forum conundrum!

Thanks. I agree entirely about not getting a current certificate. Unfortunately decent 148 ponies are often being sold unseen atm. We drove nearly 300 miles to view this pony, along with many other people. We relied on the fact that she measured well within 148 2 years previous. If we had requested a current certificate she would have been sold to someone else - which with the benefit of hindsight would have been better but at the time we didn't want to risk losing the sale as my daughter didn't have a pony to ride.

 

[Lexie01]

You do need legal advice.

I presume that you had the pony vetted as it was not cheap. Knowing what you wanted the pony for, did the vet not advise you to get the pony measured again?

A bit of research would have told you how the height certificates work these days.

5 stage vetting which she passed. I am not a complete novice - I understand about annual/life height certificates. As I have said in a previous comment the market is mad atm - 148 ponies are being sold for huge amounts unseen. My daughters pony had been retired, we needed another competition pony asap and this was perfect. It had 2 previous measurements well within 148. There was nothing to suggest it wouldn't measure in.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Would a 5 stage vetting not include measurement?

 

[Gingerwitch]

Poor pony now faces Lord knows what but it will get the height through some god awful unthinkable practices. I shudder at the thoughts and I am not saying you will do this but someone will.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Would a 5 stage vetting not include measurement?

Not usually, and def not for jmb purposes

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Poor pony now faces Lord knows what but it will get the height through some god awful unthinkable practices. I shudder at the thoughts and I am not saying you will do this but someone will.

The most recent one will already be uploaded and available for all to see..... the pony can be represented at cost, so I understand.

 

[paddy555]

It seemed quite large in the videos I was sent so I questioned and was told that she had had 2 previous JMB measurements - the last one being 146.8 2 years previously when she was 6. I checked the JMB database and this was correct.
.

It is difficult to see it was misold.You queried the height and the seller provided the info they based their statement on. You checked it out and were happy and as you later say it had had 2 previous measurements and there was nothing to suggest it wouldn't measure in. Presumably the seller said it was sound, a very important point, but you got the vet to check that. Why not check the height as that was an equally important point. The fact you needed a pony quickly is not really an excuse for something so important.
I agree with IHW daft to spend a lot of money on something that is not properly checked out on such an important point.
A case of more money now for a lawyer I'm afraid.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Not usually, and def not for jmb purposes

I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.

Some equines would not be in a fit state to pass a 5 stage vet and get a height measure on the same day and time. The majority of farriers and vets will not do whst is required but there are sadly those that will.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Some equines would not be in a fit state to pass a 5 stage vet and get a height measure on the same day and time. The majority of farriers and vets will not do whst is required but there are sadly those that will.

There are much stricter rules these days, so while ponies used to be nobbled to measure in, that shouldn't happen now.

Pony will be offered water in case of forced dehydration, it should be in a fit condition to do the work expected of it, and it can be dope tested.

 

[Lexie01]

Poor pony now faces Lord knows what but it will get the height through some god awful unthinkable practices. I shudder at the thoughts and I am not saying you will do this but someone will.

The current height (151) will show on JMB now so hopefully this should not happen. It is actually being looked at by their review panel (no idea what this is) due to the discrepancies between the 3 measurements.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Some equines would not be in a fit state to pass a 5 stage vet and get a height measure on the same day and time. The majority of farriers and vets will not do whst is required but there are sadly those that will.

True but even a standard measurement at home will give you an indication of if it is within the height range or not. A cm either way you wouldn't be worried about but 5cm is a huge difference and would have shown up at the vetting if done.

 

[Lexie01]

I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.

No it isn't included. A vet can put a stick next to a horse but this is subject to whether the ground is flat, horse being stressed or knackered due to vetting etc so not really worth asking in many cases.

 

[Lexie01]

There are much stricter rules these days, so while ponies used to be nobbled to measure in, that shouldn't happen now.

Pony will be offered water in case of forced dehydration, it should be in a fit condition to do the work expected of it, and it can be dope tested.

so why could there be a 4cm difference?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

No it isn't included. A vet can put a stick next to a horse but this is subject to whether the ground is flat, horse being stressed or knackered due to vetting etc so not really worth asking in many cases.

Maybe so but it would give you a general idea on if the pony will fit the height requirements or not. It doesn't need to be an official JMB but for a pony or horse requiring to be of a certain size it would make sense to include it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Last measured as a 6yo, is now presumably an 8yo?

Pony has grown. It happens.

You really do need legal advice. Do you still have the original advert, any communications between you and seller and the bill of sale?

 

[Gingerwitch]

The current height (151) will show on JMB now so hopefully this should not happen. It is actually being looked at by their review panel (no idea what this is) due to the discrepancies between the 3 measurements.

I am pleased to hear that only for the ponies sake. Sorry your in this situation.

 

[Lexie01]

I am pleased to hear that only for the ponies sake. Sorry your in this situation.

Thank you. I think I may be in this situation because I refuse to do the whole exercise/dehydrate thing. I couldn't live with myself doing that to any animal just to get a certain height measurement from them.