Do I have grounds for a refund?

The Fuzzy Furry

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Last measured as a 6yo, is now presumably an 8yo?

Pony has grown. It happens.

You really do need legal advice. Do you still have the original advert, any communications between you and seller and the bill of sale?
Exactly this. I would expect any 6 yr old to grow on by 8.
Hence why a life cert isn't issued at 6.
OP, if the pony was measured in January as a 6 yr old, he would definitely have grown on since then (most comp animals get measured in early winter months)
 

Lexie01

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Exactly this. I would expect any 6 yr old to grow on by 8.
Hence why a life cert isn't issued at 6.
OP, if the pony was measured in January as a 6 yr old, he would definitely have grown on since then (most comp animals get measured in early winter months)
She was measured in March 2019. I understand that a pony could still grow post 6 but my vet said she has never seen a case of one growing by 4cm within 2 years at this age.
I do have the original advert plus all communication about the height of the pony and subsequent conversations about how to 'prepare' a pony for measuring. Also whilst she isn't a 'dealer' as such she is involved professionally in the riding and training of horses and in this capacity she sells horses throughout the year.
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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She was measured in March 2019. I understand that a pony could still grow post 6 but my vet said she has never seen a case of one growing by 4cm within 2 years at this age.
I do have the original advert plus all communication about the height of the pony and subsequent conversations about how to 'prepare' a pony for measuring. Also whilst she isn't a 'dealer' as such she is involved professionally in the riding and training of horses and in this capacity she sells horses throughout the year.
I've had 2 that grew on in 2 years. One did 4.5cm and the other just over 5. It happens.
 

Melody Grey

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You do need legal advice.

I presume that you had the pony vetted as it was not cheap. Knowing what you wanted the pony for, did the vet not advise you to get the pony measured again?

A bit of research would have told you how the height certificates work these days.
Genuine question as I’ve never been in the position of buying something with a LHC- would the vet not take a measuring stick at the vetting? I know that wouldn’t be the same as a certificate, but it would influence whether it was fit for the intended purpose....assuming that the max permissible height is part of its suitability for the job?
 

Elno

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I don't know the practise is UK, but in Sweden we measure ponies when they are eight years old. The procedure is quit tedious since you have to go to a special location and have your pony measured by a special commitee just to make sure that the pony is not subjected to common tricks like dehydration or too heavy a hoof trim.

Buying a pony not finally measured at eight is a big gamble, as you sadly have experienced.
 

Melody Grey

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I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.
Cross posted- my thoughts too!
 

humblepie

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You need to speak to a specialist equine solicitor. Check your insurance including house insurance and any society memberships you have as you may have legal cover or at least initial legal advice.
 
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Thank you. I think I may be in this situation because I refuse to do the whole exercise/dehydrate thing. I couldn't live with myself doing that to any animal just to get a certain height measurement from them.
Nor were we, other than a normal 'shoe off' kind of trim, but she measured pretty straightforwardly once allowed to relax naturally. Then we faced her owner with the decision to sell as a good Junior pony (for a lot) or let us buy (for next to nothing, really) and keep for ever. She was on a sort of an informal sales livery. She decided to to put the pony first and while she jumped successfully in juniors, then to 1.20m seniors she is still here, retired. The height certificate can be pivotal!
 
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I don't know the practise is UK, but in Sweden we measure ponies when they are eight years old. The procedure is quit tedious since you have to go to a special location and have your pony measured by a special commitee just to make sure that the pony is not subjected to common tricks like dehydration or too heavy a hoof trim.

Buying a pony not finally measured at eight is a big gamble, as you sadly have experienced.
This seems sensible. I have heard of 'things' being done to get ponies in under the bar.
 
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She was measured in March 2019. I understand that a pony could still grow post 6 but my vet said she has never seen a case of one growing by 4cm within 2 years at this age.
I do have the original advert plus all communication about the height of the pony and subsequent conversations about how to 'prepare' a pony for measuring. Also whilst she isn't a 'dealer' as such she is involved professionally in the riding and training of horses and in this capacity she sells horses throughout the year.
Just out of interest, when you saw the pony, did you not think 'that looks big!' ? I know when we went looking at some with a friend that was something we heard.
 

canteron

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Ask the sellers how they ‘prepared’ the pony!
I remember having a discussion with a parent who had the ‘skills’ to get their pony basically under measured! Cant remember what they did but I guess it’s pretty well known in those circles?
 

Casey76

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I’d be wondering what kind of “preparation” the seller does.

a friend used to compete on the Poney circuit as a junior in France. Her pony was bought as a 3-yo at 144cm. By the time her owner aged out of ponies the pony was 150. When the pony was fully mature at 9 she measured 153.
 

Flyermc

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Thanks - unfortunately it was a lot over the amount for small claims. Sold as a top 148 showjumper/eventer!
Could you sell the horse and the claim the difference back via the small claims court? or if you paid for any of the purchase price via a credit card, it might be worth speaking to them?
 

ycbm

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Ask the sellers how they ‘prepared’ the pony!
I remember having a discussion with a parent who had the ‘skills’ to get their pony basically under measured! Cant remember what they did but I guess it’s pretty well known in those circles?

24 hours in a horsewalker/dehydration/teach to drop by using a pin in a measuring stick/scalp the feet. Those are the ones I know of. Top level showing has a lot to answer for.
 

ycbm

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If you can bear the potential abuse of the pony (and I couldn't) one answer here is to return it to the seller and tell them that you are going to demand a refund unless they get a height certificate for 148cm.
.
 

sky1000

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There is a lot to look at here and you need specialist equine legal advice. Possible avenues - mis rep (it's a long time since I studied this but I think anyone can misrep - if the seller knowingly misrepresents it is fraud whether dealer or not). That may nor may not be undermined by you querying it and hearing that the latest height cert was two years ago. Whether the selling of several equines makes the seller a dealer, when you may have more rights, possibly just how her height certificates were obtained given that she suggests you should have 'prepared' the pony.
 

FlyingCircus

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If you can bear the potential abuse of the pony (and I couldn't) one answer here is to return it to the seller and tell them that you are going to demand a refund unless they get a height certificate for 148cm.
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Would this not encourage abuse from the seller? As then they are even more incentivised to get it measuring in.
 

SO1

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Height always seems very objective in adverts unless they have a LHC I would take the advertised height as an estimated height not an actual measured certified height. If height very important then I would be taking a measuring stick at viewing especially if the pony looked big on the videos. It won't give you JMB height but it measures 15.2 on the stick it is probably not going to measure in a 148 even without shoes.

I expect the pony has grown since it was 6. There is a reason that LHC are not awarded until the pony is over 7 and that is because they can continue to grow up to that age. If the hooves were severely trimmed and perhaps the pony freshly clipped so less hair on the wither it might have squeezed in at the original measuring and perhaps then grown a couple of cm.

I think to get a refund you have to prove that the seller knew the pony was over-height and would not measure in, which is probably going to be hard to do.

I have a native pony and it was important that he would measure in, I got him at 5, 13 years ago and I am pretty sure the vet measured him at the vetting. Advertised as 14.1 but he looks tiny compared to others in his class, he is a forester and the Connie's look huge in comparison. He looks so small that my non horsey mum who came to show to see him asked why he was not in the small breeds class. My friend who has a 143 Connie said she thinks my forester would measure in at 13.1, I measured him on a stick and he is indeed 14.1 in his shoes.
 

smiggy

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i think if they had a certificate at 6 saying it was 148, and sold it at 148, it would be hard to prove that they knew or thought it wasn’t. Unless they actually lied about having a newer certificate, which they didn’t, legally I can’t see they have done anything wrong. If you need it to be a certain height, surely it’s your responsibility to ensure that is the case before purchase.
 

criso

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I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances. If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.

ETA however in this case I would have asked the vet to measure at the vetting. My vet always carries his measuring stick as I know from when we disagreed on how tall my last horse was and he went and got it to prove he was right - he wasn't.
 

Dexter

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I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances. If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.
I would imagine so. I thought they had introduced random spot measuring? If so and a pony needs prep to measure in then its not fit for purpose surely?
 

Tiddlypom

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I've got a home made measuring stick, including a spirit level, which is pretty accurate. It's certainly good enough to measure to +/- 1.0cm. Easy to pop on for a quick check to see if the height is likely to be in the right range.
 
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