Do the Kennel Club police breeders? And are they a marketing tool for the greedy?

Archiesmummy

Archiesmummy

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I am new to this part of the forum but interested in gaining some knowledge and any questions I may have answered. I ask that my thread does not turn into a battle ground but a place where I may learn and which is informative and objective, on both sides. I shall begin.

Following my thread offering a home for a chihuahua I am pleased to say I have homed a lovely, almost two year old, bitch who is the sweetest little girl. I placed an ad offering a home and was contacted almost immediately. No money was asked for but I offered a donation to charity which was gratefully received.

Before I placed my ad I trawled through ads, for sale and adoptions. I was amazed at the prices asked for puppies. It appeared to make a difference if the puppy was registered with the KC by an 'accredited breeder'. I contacted an 'accredited breeder' and upon talking to her in some length it became very apparent that perhaps her dogs were not as important to her as I had been first led to believe. Money appeared to be a major issue. I also learned that she had a relative in Lithuania who bought dogs (I assume a bitch and stud), because they were cheap over there, bred and then imported the puppies over here to sell at extortionate prices.

It seemed apparent that she bred what was in fashion, to get highest reward and then offloaded the stud and bitches once they had done their bit and then went on to 'concentrate on her breeding programme with ...' the flavour of the month.

I was aghast. It was the importing bit that flabbergasted me the most. Does the KC not police breeding? Are there not enough puppies born in this country without importing more?

What criteria do the KC insist on when accrediting a new breeder? Are they regularly checked?

I was going to home the lady's older stud dog, to retire, but I feel she was offered more money for him and she told me he was no longer available.

I do not object to breeding but in my experience I have been met with breeders who are the biggest bull sh*77*rs I have met in all my life. They are not interested in protecting the breed, ensuring only good blood is used, etc. They operate purely to make themselves as much money as they can.

Can I just say this does not just to apply to dogs but the cat world is full of BS's too. Pardon me but I get very angry, from personal experience. Having offered to pay top money for a breeding queen cat and for the breeder who wanted to 'protect the breed' to choose the stud,I was met with a resounding no. When I asked why it was because I did not show. I do not want to show. I would like to enchance the breed by using the best possible dam and sire available but not show. No wonder people who are met with such a wall of arrogance go on and purchase unsuitable dams and sires and the breed suffers. And all down to the breeders who want to protect it. Yeah, right.

Please enlighten me. Make me understand the world of breeding.
 
Right, massive ramble alert.

I think the key is education/research. There have always been shysters out there, but with the advent of the internet, easy cash and an 'I want it now' attitude among buyers, there are more shysters than ever before.

If I was looking for a pup, I would be looking for a certain type of pup, and I would never be looking somewhere like an online, free ad site. No offence to people who buy and sell through those sites but it would be the last place I would look. They tend to attract people who want to make maximum profit (not paying for ads, not paying for health tests on breeding animals) with minimum effort (ditto).
Breed clubs and breed rescues tend to be much better policed which is why I would always recommend people go through breed clubs or breed rescues and talk to lots of people to see what best suits their needs.

All our dogs have come through word of mouth and TBH I have never bought a baby pup from a litter, the last of ours bought new was in 1983 and since then all of ours have been older pups who have not made the grade for showing - we've fostered contacts in the breed over the years and when we were looking for a dog we put the word out that we were looking for something. If we had to wait, we had to wait. All of our dogs have been pets first and foremost, some shown lightly, my latter two worked. A pet dog and a dog who has aptitude for show or work should not be mutually exclusive :p

My breed is prone to certain hereditary health issues and I like to see the pedigree of the dog because I prefer to know what to look out for. Even for my older dog, he has had a lot of problems I was not expecting, but because I know his lines, I know what to avoid in future. The international kennel clubs do seem to be a lot better at record keeping and policing health standards, but that's another monologue :p

If I were looking for a pet dog of a certain breed I would first contact breed clubs/breed rescue. If I wanted a dog to show or work I would go to a training or ringcraft club and take a look and see what I liked the look of and do my research. If I was looking for a crossbreed I would go to rescue and if I were refused by all rescues ever, I would go for an 'oops' litter and pay very little indeed.

Re importation, while your woman sounds like a real charmer who treats her dogs as a commodity, my breed is built on, and thrives on, importation. The massive problems of epilepsy, hip dysplasia in the UK, were caused by close breedings on certain lines. International lines can bring their own problem, but I think it is important to have a diverse gene pool. If you think about Chihuahuas, they are from south America, so by their very nature, they will have had to have been imported into the UK at some stage.

The KC are not perfect and they are not my favourite organisation, it's a paying member's club, the AB system has a lot of flaws and I can't see why the KC cannot enforce rules which are easily enforced by much bigger international kennel clubs in much bigger countries, but they are better than nothing in a lot of cases. They do need to be doing much, much more though.
 
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Wow where doyou start,its a minefield out there, I support the puppy love campaigns who are trying to end puppy farming, these breeders are licenced and some of them are KC registered parents but you wouldnt want to buy from them. I have a Lancashire Heeler which i is a rare breed and on the KC vunerable list but there are still breeders out there who dont eye test their breeding dogs so possibley condenming puppies to possible blindness. I bought our pup from health tested parents and have found a fb group made up of breeders and people who own or just love Heelers. They work hard for the breed that they love with a passion and its never about the money but working to improve the breed. The KC have a lot to answer in my book, too many people buy a KC puppy assuming its top notch but this sadly isnt the case and people who sell on preloved and gumtree are fully aware the general public dont know this. Unfortunately this has had a knock on affect on other breeders breeding designer dogs at inflated prices saying they are healthier than pedigree dogs. Reputable breeders have the breed at heart and are very fussy who they sell their pups to, they also offer to take the dog back if the owner cant keep it for any reason. When I bought my first Heelers back in the late 80s the breeder told me she would take them back if I couldnt have them anymore for any reason so this is not just a new thing.
 
The Kennel Club operates a highly lucrative monopolistic mail order business in canine registrations which is even more profitable than printing money.

The idea that The Kennel Club has anything to do with dogs is a total misconception.

The answer to our first question is "No"; and the answer to your second question is "Yes".
 
The answer to the first part of your question is generally no. They supposedly carry out checks on Assured Breeders (the chi breeder you dealt with was using the old name, makes me wonder if they are still on the list) but in I don't know of any ABs who have had these checks. This link gives the requirements to become an AB.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2158
You will see whilst breeders are supposed to make use of health test schemes there is actually no requirement for results of said tests to be good, e.g. in GSDs as long as you hip score it doesn't matter how bad the score is! When I was planning to breed from my bitch I hadn't bred a litter for nearly 12 years, I applied to join the AB scheme and fully expected to have a visit and inspection, nope I just got an AB Certificate through the post. Admittedly the KC could have checked back through their records and seen all my stock was health tested etc but I don't suppose they did. I have been contacted by quite a large number of people who have seen my name on the list and are looking for puppies, so it is good people are trying to be more responsible when buying pups but defeats the object if the AB isn't as good as they believe.
In all fairness to the chi breeder, imports are quite common to improve a breed, I suppose you could say my Evie was imported in utero as her mother was taken to Germany to be mated. Quite a few breeders do rehome dogs when they retire from breeding, not something I could do but I can see the advantage if the dog is one of a large number in kennels, it may well be better off in a better home. Not quite sure if this would be the case with a chi as don't imagine many are kept in a kennel situation.
Regarding your second question, I would say that yes unscrupulous breeders do use the KC as a marketing tool, so many people think a KC registration means the dog has some sort of quality mark and that certainly isn't the case. I think the KC are slowly improving, but they need to be a lot more pro active in dealing with breeders within their system who blatantly flout the rules.
 
My partners parents bought 2 pups from an AB. Said breeder sold them two out of the same litter of difrerent sexes when they clearly knew they wouldny cope. I ended up 'rescuing' the bitch. She has a tooth missing when they sold her.

Partners parents tried contacting breeder several times to return the dogs with no success so I took on the bitch. The breeder proceeded to slag off the partners parenrs publicly. AND Deny them being contacted.

My partners parents bought from an AB in good faith that should a problem occur they wouldbhave had support.

I have got a lovely bitch out of it however it is wrong that this happened and people shouldnt breed for the money. The breeder couldnt get rid of the last few pups and gave the last person buy one get one free. These pups were bred from a bitch that has entropian (I did my research unfortunately the partners parents didnt.

I am disappointed as this is a well known breeder.
 
One other general point which we were discussing over tea yesterday...you go and have a look at a litter - you don't HAVE to buy one. This is a dog you could potentially have for years, going into double figures, I know people who have spent hundreds going to visit litters and have walked away from them after assessing them - I know people who have bought a dog on the strength of something like, that they wanted a male and it was the only male in the litter, so they had 'no other choice' and now have a dog they don't get on with...their choice, they know now, was to walk away and wait...breeders *are* trying to sell dogs, but that doesn't mean you *have* to buy one.
Again, it's research, knowing what 'type' of dog you want and which will suit your needs and lifestyle, not just 'a dog, any dog'.

TBH I think haste to buy and the need to have &*now* is fuelling the shyster breeders.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, I thought I had done my research because I had met both of my young dog's parents and trained a show dog or two and been to a few working trials. If I'd have stuck his grandfather's name into YouTube, I would have been a bit more prepared for the unholy noise he emits :p
 
CaveCanem said:
Again, it's research, knowing what 'type' of dog you want and which will suit your needs and lifestyle, not just 'a dog, any dog'.
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I can vouch for this being a very bad idea. :o

If I were to buy a dog again it would be for a specific purpose - either a working bred sibe, for which I'd go to two, maybe three breeders that I've met through rallies and whose dogs I like, visit them again at home, examine the pedigrees, health tests, working and/or show results, watch their up and coming offspring working and then go on a very lengthy waiting list. I would expect to have my own dogs and lifestyle picked over with a fine tooth comb before being accepted and to provide evidence of being able to work and/or show the dog.

The only other type of dog I would purchase would be a non-collie for agility - probably a malinois, given their success in agility in Europe and my general preference for bitey wolfy things. I'd be completely out of my depth here and probably bother CC and the breed club for introductions to the right sort of lines and breeders. I know there's a breeder in my county but they're show line and I don't like their appearance or apparent reticence; I'd expect to go a lot further afield and again to wait a long time for the right one.

But, and it's a big but, I've only learnt this from my experience with D. I was arrogant and naive enough to assume that a dog was just a dog. Before I became a crazy dog lady the concept of puppy farms and backyard breeders was something I was only vaguely aware of and certainly not hugely passionate about. Before I got into various dog sports health, drive and ability didn't really matter to me.

You don't have to look much further than family and friends to realise that people just aren't aware of the issues around dog breeding - my own mother, who would never wish harm on an animal, was puzzled as to why I'd had D spayed as she'd seen an advert for husky puppies in the paper at £800 apiece and wouldn't it be nice to breed a litter from her, to have cute puppies and make a bit of money as well?

I spotted a work colleague on Facebook responding to a dodgy free ad for staff pups - I sent her a very passive message with a link to a local rescue who had several puppies available, staffs included, all neutered, chipped etc. - she went out the same day as having decided to get a dog and came back with a collie pup. She's now pregnant with her second child and there are murmurs about the dog being a pain in the backside, I've no doubt it will soon go. :(

This is where the Kennel Club should be going further. The general public genuinely aren't aware of the issues surrounding dog breeding so the AB scheme should be a gold standard, a way that 'newbies' can buy an ethically and physically sound dog that is right for them and their family and avoid all the pitfalls and ishoos of unhealthy/puppy farmed/unsuitable dogs. In its present form it guarantees almost nothing, sadly.
 
I think a key issue is that if the KC, *REALLY* tightens up (IE insisting on minimum health hip/elbow scores for breeding, a show grading or working qual for breeding, like some of the international kennel clubs), they will lose a lot of revenue as the less responsible breeders will fail to meet higher standards required for registration.

For my own breed, in Germany, you are advised only to breed from animals with a breed survey, to pass this the dogs need a minimum show grading, working qualification, good hip and elbow scores and must have passed the endurance test (20k off a bike).
Dogs born to surveyed parents have pink papers. Pups born to dogs without a survey have white papers. Pink papered dogs command a higher price. White papered dogs sell for more money than dogs with no papers at all, it's an incentive to aim for better breeding.
The papers stay with the dog for life and all the tests and qualifications and show results are recorded on them.

Of course, breeders do work 'out of the system' in Germany but the dogs sell for peanuts and are generally regarded as low quality because people are more aware of what goes into a really good breeding programme.

While there is a UK equivalent, at least two surveys have been run this year under international rules and the passes for males and females are in double figures, working and show lines, dogs which are also family companions.

There are plenty of dogs in the UK with breed surveys, and plenty of good quality puppies available if people do the research.
Probably the most successful breeder in the UK (and a thoroughly nice person) despite all the hard work and training and research and frequent trips to Europe, has to sell their pups for around £800 because that's what the backyard breeder down the road who reverses one nondescript dog into another, charges.
 
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EmmaOr, did your partners parents contact the KC to let them know they had problems with the breeders. When I received my pups registration from the KC there was also a form to give to the new owners for them to give feedback on myself as an AB. I am pretty sure it said on there or on some of the other paperwork to contact the KC if they felt the breeder didn't meet the criteria of an AB. I suspect some breeders might "forget" to put these forms in the puppy pack.;)
 
My experience in pedigree dogs has been with the American Kennel Club. I was, for many years, a breeder/exhibitor of Golden Retrievers and Norwich Terriers (the majority of the terriers being British imports). I was also the president of the Golden Retriever Club of Hawaii for over 15 years. Being on the "business" end of my dealings with the AKC (putting on matches and championship shows and preparing the accompanying catalogues to AKC standards) was basically no different than my dealings with them as a breeder/exhibitor. Forms had to be filled out, whether the subject matter was applying for permission to hold an AKC sanctioned event, or the registration of a litter of pups, or the transfer of ownership of a dog from one person to the next. In my capacity as president of the GRCH, there were occasions when I was contacted by Golden owners wanting to know what I "was going to do about so and so's litter of pups which were sold without vaccinations or worming and the resultant death of several pups?" Or the heartbreaking discovery that someone in the breed (not the club) had sold 3 weeks old pups. Or the outrageous attempt of a disgruntled exhibitor to rant at a judge, in the ring, that he only put up pets (said judge died just before said exhibitor was going to be brought up on charges of bringing the sport of dogs into disrepute). When I contacted a lawyer for the AKC, I had been warned that any charges against a breeder or exhibitor that could cause a loss of remuneration to that person as a result of charges brought would be a no go area. Why are puppy mills still in existence? Because the pups produced by those establishments are registrable with the AKC (and, I assume, the Kennel Club). When people ask what breed clubs can do about cruel, immoral practices, the only answer is nothing, unless the people guilty of such behaviour are members in good standing of that club. Then, if a club has a code of ethics (which most clubs do have), the usual reaction is to refuse membership renewal to the offending member. Then what? Turn to the Kennel Club or the AKC? Those organisations are registries, pure and simple. Nothing more. They are not policing agencies.

When I tried to educate people about the pitfalls of purchasing puppies, I found that if I asked them how they went about buying a TV or refrigerator, they would almost always say that they would ask for guarantees and track records. I would encourage them to view the acquisition of a pup with as much "homework" and effort as they would put in for an inanimate object. That usually struck a cord. I told them that it was the breeder's place to allow a pup to be purchased, that it wasn't the prospective buyer's right (I could write a book about that subject alone). As an officer of the GRCH I encouraged buyers to ask the "right" questions and expect the "right" answers from the breeder. Conversely, I encouraged breeders to expect certain questions from the buying public. Without going into all the whys and wherefores here, I wanted people to know that the AKC wasn't going to be there for them when and if the bottom fell out of their dream of dog ownership.
 
Ummm where do you start.

Accredited Breed Scheme which is now the Assured Breeder Scheme although the KC are still using old paperwork so you'll be hard pushed to find a breeder with a certificate for one for starters...saving money.

It is not a flagship for good breeding it is a basic set of criteria on the housing and basic care of the dogs and provision to owners usually far less than a good breeder will provide themselves. Provision is not across the board each breed has different additional criteria some which do not benefit the breed.

BUYER BEWARE. Members have the badges to show their achievements which can be viewed in several ways... Member of a breed club, you would assume that this is a member of the breed club for the breed you are purchasing, you would be wrong. It can be ANY breed club and you only need one. I own three breeds I am a member of 4 clubs in the UK 9 clubs internationally but only for one of my breeds. This is one example. They are in some respects rewards for producing puppies. They make no account of people who breed 1 litter in a dogs lifetime to replace their own dog some of these litters are sought after so much so they don't need to advertise they have long waiting lists and they adhere to the rules of the clubs not just the KC.

Personally although I am a member I would NEVER use it as the only reason for purchasing a puppy from a breeder, research, be prepared to travel and be prepared to WAIT for the right breeder.

I would always approach the national parent club and ask for some advice first, then pop myself on one of the forums to learn the good the bad and the woes of a breed because you will learn far more from pet owners and enthusiasts than you will from the KC website.

Do the KC police breeder??? No and even if they did they would be in little position to do anything about it beyond revoke membership which in reality does little to stop anyone. The ABS does help to sell puppies and that is pretty much all you are paying for a leg up to sell a puppy. I don't think they do simply because when I have contacted them to say this breeder is registering crossbreds as pure and in filthy conditions I was advised to contact the RSPCA and the local dog warden. They had no interest in the fact that supposed pure breed registered dogs were not pure bred at all!

The KC do not have a monopoly as there is Doglovers Registration but as that is not worth the paper it is printed on... its the only Option. At least until we can register under the FCI which is what I would like to be able to do.

Having said all of that there are some very good breeders in amongst the crap and shoddy they are worth seeking out.
 
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I did indeed fill out then feedback form and has no reply. I love my dog to death but I wouldnt have chosen her.....
 
I'm a KC Assured breeder and have had an inspection from Bill Lambert ( the co-ordinator of the ABS ). As a member of the ABS scheme any pups I register must come from health tested parents and this is checked by the KC via their data bank - ( here's the test results for the bitch I'm planning on mating next http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx - enter her name 'Grondemon Archangel' to see how it works - and no I'm not advertising as I have already closed the puppy list for this litter )

The inspection was thorough and included not only the environment in which my dogs live and that my pups are reared in but all my paperwork including my puppy contract and advice booklet - they have and do remove breeders from the scheme who do not meet the criteria.

Is the ABS perfect ?- nope - but then neither is the Dog Advisory Council's alternative http://www.dogadvisorycouncil.com/resources/breeding-standard-final.pdf which is ludicrously impractical and would also need inspecting to ensure that breeders comply.

Frankly it's down to puppy buyers to put the work in when looking for their next dog - if they insisted on visiting breeders, and on only buying from those that provide good conditions, health test , provide contracts undertaking to take back any dogs they breed and have a clear reason for breeding that is not about making a quick profit then there would be no need for such schemes.

Meanwhile the KC ABS is the ONLY one that provides a framework for excellence - it's a start and coupled with the KC's databases for health and coefficient of inbreeding calculators provides puppy buyers with some means of sorting out the wheat form the chaff. The fact that there a few bad apples who try and take advantage of the scheme is no reason not to join...and in my opinion all good breeders should be members of the ABS.
 
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Hi, Haven't read all the replies so far so apologies if this repeats what some others have said but I am a KC assured (used to be called accredited) breeder.

1st of all just because puppies are KC registered doesn't mean that they are from an assured breeder. KC is a register of parentage for dogs, they certify that the parentage is correct E.g. if you buy a Golden Retriever it will be GR the whole way back and not have Staff in it that you can't see etc.

It does NOT mean that the puppies will neccessarily be to a high standard - just that the mother and the father were both registered with the KC and have pedigrees supported by them.

They also place restrictions on the numbers of litters a bitch can have (register) as well as maximum and minimum ages for breeding. You are also not allowed to register back to back litters from the same bitch or do close matings.

There are some breeders out there who basically puppy farm but use the KC to look better. They will have a few bitches and will register 1 litter with the KC but pretend the other bitches (who are probably too old, too young, had too many litters or back to back litters) puppies also belong to that bitch. They may try and sell puppies half price or reduced (without papers).

It costs £12 to register a puppy with the KC so if people say both parents are KC registered but puppies aren't then they are up to something.

Assured breeders have to conduct the breed specific health testing (e.g. eye tests, hip and elbow scores as well as DNA and genetic conditions) and can be visited by the KC at any time to check up on them (many haven't yet been though as some people will only breed a litter every 3-4 years). They also have to have a contract of sale that includes taking the dog they have bred back at any time and for any circumstances during their life.

They also must permently identify their breeding stock by microchip or tattoo to ensure people can't fake health tests results etc.

Good breeders will also be members of the breed club and do something with their dogs, either showing, working, obedience, agility, PAT, breed rescue etc. They normally breed only to keep one (when you get as attached as we do you can't see them all go). They will always allow you to meet the mother but don't be put off if you can't meet the sire as many people will travel hundreds of miles for the right dog. Some even travel to the US or around europe. They should be more than happy to talk to you the stud and be able to explain the reasons why they chose it show you pics, health test results etc.

I always recommend you call the breed club and ask about any breeder you are considering buying from. If they don't know them then ask yourself why.

The same way you wouldn't assume just because a Holstein mare is papered it doesn't mean she comes from a respectable caring breeder.

Sorry this is so long winded but I hope it helps
 
The Assured Breeder Scheme is a step in the right direction,the only one so far.They advise the proper health tests for each breed,in my opinion they are not forceful enough.....YET.
But it will over the years develope teeth,of that I am sure,yes we all know of breeders using it and churning out purely pet standard puppies and also who would never take back their mis sold puppies,but so far it is all we have got.My worry is that I def know of members using bitches twice yearly...one pedigree litter,one "designer litter",and this needs regulating urgently.
Some of the "Accolades" are pointless to me..getting a star or whatever for breeding five "pet" litters?Where is the virtue in that exactly? The Kennel Club should in fact reward those in for the long haul in their breed,those of us who stick by their chosen breed for decades.Maybe,for instance,if someone has BRED..not bought..ten Champions they should be granted the right as in days of yore to put the endorsement "Name unchangeable" on all their puppies.Adding my Affix to the few dogs I have bought in is something I do not do,but these days complete newbies seem to think they MUST have an affix,even well before breeding a litter themselves.Quite ridiculous.
If you want a specific breed try and find a breeder with at least ten years in that breed,consistantly breeding good healthy stock,they are out there.The Breed Club is a good starting point.,now it may mean you have to wait for your puppy,but buy in haste repent at leisure.
My puppy contracts clearly point out WHAT the puppy is intended for,there are some folks out there who try it on,find a minor fault and then say they cannot show it.It helps a lot if under Purpose "PET/companion" is clearly indicated. By the same token the biggest heartbreaker for the show breeder is the buyer who promises faithfully to do their best by the puppy and show their pick of litter,and promptly disappear ,neuter and never ever show your chosen one at all.Little minor faults in the showring certanly would be un noticed by an owner,a "missing tooth" for instance..does that affect the dog`s life?No of course not,and it fulfills it`s role as a pet companion admirably.
There is a difference in price from good established healthy winning lines as opposed to non winning untested lines..and why not?If you bought a horse from Z lines in show jumping you would expect it to be more expensive than one "with a good leap" out of Ireland,just common sense really.
Another plea from me,an Assured Breeder with all the Accolades including the Supreme one,LISTEN to us,rear your puppy as we direct..NOT what the vet says..pretty please!
 
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Great posts East Kent and Jasmine- I also think that Vets have a role to play - they surely should be at the forefront of raising awareness of the importance of health testing yet time and again we hear of people who breed from bitches that 'are simply 'vet checked' what on earth is that about ?-they must surely know that you cannot know the state of a dogs hips for example just by looking !

Their notice boards should have clear guidance on what puppy buyers should be looking for in a good breeder instead of being the place where dubious BYB's advertise their litters.

The BVA also need to raise their game - why is it left only to breed enthusiasts to collate health and other data ? - is the Veterinary profession not ideally placed to do this ? - in my own breed it is the breed clubs that have funded and taken part in research to identify the gene for epilepsy and who have created world wide sources of information for breeders to use

http://baza.belgi.pl/modules/animal/dog.php?id=20437 -

In my opinion the BVA should be working alongside the KC to give a clear message on what responsible , ethical breeding is and why is so important that puppy buyers ONLY buy from breeders who are
 
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milor said:
Great posts East Kent and Jasmine- I also think that Vets have a role to play - they surely should be at the forefront of raising awareness of the importance of health testing yet time and again we hear of people who breed from bitches that 'are simply 'vet checked' what on earth is that about ?-they must surely know that you cannot know the state of a dogs hips for example just by looking !

Their notice boards should have clear guidance on what puppy buyers should be looking for in a good breeder instead of being the place where dubious BYB's advertise their litters.

The BVA also need to raise their game - why is it left only to breed enthusiasts to collate health and other data ? - is the Veterinary profession not ideally placed to do this ? - in my own breed it is the breed clubs that have funded and taken part in research to identify the gene for epilepsy and who have created world wide sources of information for breeders to use

http://baza.belgi.pl/modules/animal/dog.php?id=20437 -

In my opinion the BVA should be working alongside the KC to give a clear message on what responsible , ethical breeding is and why is so important that puppy buyers ONLY buy from breeders who are
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People tend to forget that The Kennel Club is a private club and they can -- and do -- exactly what they like.

Having said that, they licence clubs to hold various events and have to give the stamp of approval to any judges.

Of course, they will try to shift the blame onto the clubs, but that approval is the bottom line. I've known a lot of judges I would never sell a dog to!:eek:

The way forward is more criticism through documentaries like "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" (Free to view on YouTube) But of course the KC will retaliate as they are very good at doing as anyone who attempts to whistle blow will soon discover.
 
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In answer to the OP question in my experience no.

I work at a vets and we have AB on our books who are breeding from bitches at 12-3 months of age, we dont get involved in the registration paperwork but I very much doubt they are registered to their dams as the puppies would not fetch much money as unregistered pups, so they need to be registered to an older bitch.

also it is not a requirement for surgery such as cherry eye correction be registered to the bitch via KC so its declared (or not) at the owners discretion, we also know many breeders use more than one vet to hide stuff that is done and not declared.

I have never and would never but a KC registered pup direct from the breeder-i would take one on as a rescue possibly but i dont like the whole making a living from breeding animals it devalues them as a living breathing being. I think the whole KC thing is a shambles that does dogs no favours at all
 
milor said:
Great posts East Kent and Jasmine- I also think that Vets have a role to play - they surely should be at the forefront of raising awareness of the importance of health testing yet time and again we hear of people who breed from bitches that 'are simply 'vet checked' what on earth is that about ?-they must surely know that you cannot know the state of a dogs hips for example just by looking !
difficult one a good vet should advise their clients who wish to breed from a dog, problem is we rarely see them before they are in pup. a vet check is just stating that 'in the vets opinion on that day with a basic health check the animal appeared healthy', like a 2 stage vetting. its not the vets fault that people dont seek the advice that others feel they should. many vets are not interested in breeding either, many would rather it was strictly controlled with specialist vets overseeing it. we seem to expect our vets to cover everything from orthapedics to reproduction and everything inbetween-personally i think thats unreasonable and feel lucky that where i work we have a group of vets whos interests vary widely

Their notice boards should have clear guidance on what puppy buyers should be looking for in a good breeder instead of being the place where dubious BYB's advertise their litters.

good idea we have that at work but possibly not as clear as it should be, i shall amend that next time i am in

In my opinion the BVA should be working alongside the KC to give a clear message on what responsible , ethical breeding is and why is so important that puppy buyers ONLY buy from breeders who are
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as with everything education is the answer and it needs to be easily obtainable, but people need to want it and with animals unfortunatly the seem to have become disposable
 
A very valid point about not necessarily seeing the stud dog, in fact I would go as far as to say I would probably be more wary if a breeder has both sire and dam as it often means they just churn out litter after litter of the same breeding with no attempt to improve. Seeing the mother though is very important, I like people to visit and meet the bitch before she has the litter as then they can see the true temperament, there is no doubt that some bitches can become more protective when they have pups.
I agree vets could do more to promote responsible breeding. There is one practice local to me that has adverts in their window from one person for various cross bred litters and dogs at stud, no mention of any health tests. Another vet is advertising a litter on fb of "rare chocolate JRT pups £450". I stand corrected but I have never heard of chocolate being a recognised JRT colour. However as JingleJools says a lot of vets don't see a bitch until it is having trouble whelping, and I know some breeders are very reluctant for c sections to be carried out as they know the vet has to advise the KC.
 
There's a breeder of 'rare chocolate miniature jacks' at £450 each about a mile down the road from me, MM, wonder if it's the same one? They are all bug eyed, bow legged and extremely reticent for JRTs.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Another vet is advertising a litter on fb of "rare chocolate JRT pups £450". I stand corrected but I have never heard of chocolate being a recognised JRT colour. However as JingleJools says a lot of vets don't see a bitch until it is having trouble whelping, and I know some breeders are very reluctant for c sections to be carried out as they know the vet has to advise the KC.
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no solid colour is recognised in JRT, in fact the predominate colour always has to be white, but of course they are not a KC recognised breed so thats just how the working fraternity want them
 
blackcob said:
There's a breeder of 'rare chocolate miniature jacks' at £450 each about a mile down the road from me, MM, wonder if it's the same one? They are all bug eyed, bow legged and extremely reticent for JRTs.
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No, its local to me BC. My post isn't very clear but it is actually a vet (or his wife) who has bred the litter.:mad:

Yeah I had always understood they had to be mainly white JJ.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Black & Tan JRs have become very popular, a few years ago at Priddy Fair I had to take a second look at one being carried around as my first thought was a Lancashire Heeler.
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i have a lurcher that i show, race and allow to work, at all the terrier and lurcher shows (including the one i run) no coloured (dark terrier) is recognised as being a JRT, yes they are sold as such but they will not be allowed to be entered into a class for JRT as there is no such thing as a dark coloured JRT amongst the working fraternity, it is just a selling point but they are coloured terrier crosses, the JRT is supposed to meet a more refined type that includes colour
 
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