Do we over analyse horses now

[setterlover]

Sometimes I wonder if people do just over analyse horses now twerk their diet and routines just because we can seeing problems that maybe aren't there.
My grandfather was an old fashioned horse man kept and worked heavy horses (mostly Clydesdales) born in the 19 th century you fed hay ( and " straights" only if they worked enough to need them,)
no such thing as supplements.If a horse seemed a bit off then they had a day off and turned out and monitored.
He always said horses have off days just like us.
He said treat them like horses with kindness and care don't over think things but I wonder if now we put our own emotions on them and are almost looking for things to be wrong with them.
I know these days we do seem to have made keeping horses into an art form constantly analysing them .
I know the way we CAN keep horses is often dictated by the livery yards they are on but do horses do better when allowed plenty of turn out 24/7 if possible) and quality hay/haylege not needing all the potions we add to their feeds.

 

[Patterdale]

Yes, this is absolutely right. The main problem is that there are very few horse people left now - and far more people who have horses. Novice new age horse owners are sometimes very confident in their convictions, and will freely give out rubbish advice to anyone who will listen.
Then there is a supplement or gadget for everything and it’s easy for people to fall for the flashy advertising.

And everyone seems to demand perfection. Despite it not existing. I could go on and on but I need to get on with my day!

 

[gallopingby]

Yes we over analyse a lot of things these days, in the case of horses probably because many or even most people do not have a good basic knowledge of horsemanship / conformation etc. There are plenty people who are new to owning horses, they are too affordable for some people who then livery them with others who also haven’t enough knowledge but maybe have more time. There are still a few people around who have been brought up alongside horses and have absorbed some of the ways of the old horseman.

 

[silv]

Yes, this is absolutely right. The main problem is that there are very few horse people left now - and far more people who have horses. Novice new age horse owners are sometimes very confident in their convictions, and will freely give out rubbish advice to anyone who will listen.
Then there is a supplement or gadget for everything and it’s easy for people to fall for the flashy advertising.

And everyone seems to demand perfection. Despite it not existing. I could go on and on but I need to get on with my day!

This! and also analysing behaviour when the horse is actually behaving perfectly normally for a horse, they are not machines and can have off days too.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Yes, we most definitely over analyse in the majority of cases IMHO.

 

[Rowreach]

Yes, and reading a few threads this morning I'd say that is the issue for many horses! Overthinking owners.

However, being a bit old school myself and learning from a real old fashioned horseman, I'd say he did a huge amount of analysing the horses he worked with, he just didn't realise it, vocalise it or monetise it, because it was like a 6th sense to him. Horses loved him.

There's a big difference between seeking to understand a horse and creating all sorts of problems by not understanding them.

The horse feed manufacturers also have a lot to answer for.

 

[BBP]

We can definitely over analyse, but I personally prefer that to ‘the good old days’ when horses with issues were ignored and made to ‘get on with it’. I believe horses with ulcers and kissing spine and muscle myopathies existed in the same numbers but were labelled naughty/cold backed/typical mares etc. Old fashioned horsemen weren’t and aren’t always better.

I was happier when I didn’t over analyse, but I’m not sure my horses were.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Yes, and reading a few threads this morning I'd say that is the issue for many horses! Overthinking owners.

However, being a bit old school myself and learning from a real old fashioned horseman, I'd say he did a huge amount of analysing the horses he worked with, he just didn't realise it, vocalise it or monetise it, because it was like a 6th sense to him. Horses loved him.

There's a big difference between seeking to understand a horse and creating all sorts of problems by not understanding them.

The horse feed manufacturers also have a lot to answer for.

This this this!

 

[canteron]

Agree - I have a degree in overthinking.
But I do think grass and hay used to have more diverse species and most boundaries were hedges where horses could browse, so this is a huge argument for supplementing a ‘single species’ grass diet these days

 

[reynold]

Whatever the original reason for a supplement company starting up, once they have got a name/market they are not much different to 'big pharma' in that their focus is on making money. The only 'supplement' I've ever really used consistently is garlic in the summer as I for myself and my animals generally try and avoid 'chemicals'.

I worked with a man who had served in the RAVC in WW2 and was also a mule handler. 'Nuts' as a feed were created in that era as they were more concentrated and lighter to transport than bags of oats for the army mules/horses. He was introduced to feeding them at a staging camp at Aviemore.

I grew up in the days when there was a mix of horses in straight stalls and stables, often with little, if any, regular turnout. As above the feeds were bran, chaff (hand made), oats and linseed.

The coat gloss was a 'paraffin rag'. A horse that needed a pick-me-up was rested and possibly given an egg or beer in its feed.

Most important of all was that I never saw a horse that was overweight.

The impact of the loss of the knowledge of the old horsemen is now apparent. I was taught to run my hands down my horses legs at least once every day, not because I necessarily thought there was anything 'wrong' but so that I knew what the normal was for my horses legs and so could identify any heat, lumps and bumps that were not normal. I still do that every day even with my companion WHW pony who does no work at all.

Another thing that is causing problems these days is that people are generally reluctant to give a horse 'time' if something is wrong to allow nature to heal, maybe with a bit of vet assistance and also with Dr. Green. People want the 'instant fix' and will often go from one 'expert' to another until a 'fix' is 'found'.

It's no longer a case of 'when will the horse be better' but 'how soon can I ride'. Even with BE the days of horses having the winter off and being brought up again in the spring seem to mainly be gone. Riders expect to compete all winter as well at dressage and/or SJ.

The old phrase 'time is a great healer' is basically what I'm getting at. No - not suggesting you don't use a vet and find an exact diagnosis (if possible) but that jumping from physio, to saddler, to dentist, and then vet often last, plus the many other options now available on which to spend your money is not really the best for the horse on every occasion.

Another factor is again time - that of the owner - who now is probably working hard to keep their horse and so has less time available to ride every day. The horse goes for days of 20 mins work (if that) and then is expected to go on 3 hour hacks or 3 or 4 SJ rounds at a competition at the weekend plus travelling. The horse is basically being asked to act as an athlete without consistent training.

I've been on any number of livery yards over the years where horses do nothing much all week and then are expected to 'gallop round the downs' at the weekend for hours when the owner has the time.

 

[Rowreach]

We can definitely over analyse, but I personally prefer that to ‘the good old days’ when horses with issues were ignored and made to ‘get on with it’. I believe horses with ulcers and kissing spine and muscle myopathies existed in the same numbers but were labelled naughty/cold backed/typical mares etc. Old fashioned horsemen weren’t and aren’t always better.

I was happier when I didn’t over analyse, but I’m not sure my horses were.

I'd agree to some extent but a lot of modern day issues are caused or exacerbated by modern practices of management and feeding, lack of exercise and oversupplementation. Ulcers being a prime example.

And one of the major problems I see is riders who only feel safe in a fully fenced 20x40m arena and never ride outside it or hack out on the buckle, and expect their horse (to whom an arena is a confined trap which causes huge anxiety) to be perfectly behaved even when it's being fed compound products and haylage and only ridden 20 minutes a day, three days a week.

Ideally we'd combine old and new and perhaps have healthier, happier horses getting the best of both worlds.

 

[Patterdale]

We can definitely over analyse, but I personally prefer that to ‘the good old days’ when horses with issues were ignored and made to ‘get on with it’. I believe horses with ulcers and kissing spine and muscle myopathies existed in the same numbers but were labelled naughty/cold backed/typical mares etc. Old fashioned horsemen weren’t and aren’t always better.

I was happier when I didn’t over analyse, but I’m not sure my horses were.

I don’t agree with this though. It isn’t that there are a set number of issues with horses and that now we find them more. It’s that modern horse owners CREATE a hugely increased number of issues compared with what horses were faced with before.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yes and no. Those old fashioned horse-folk knew instinctively when something was up, and acted accordingly. Horses owned by those sorts of horsefolk were also handled with far more skill and given a useful job, which they clearly understood. Horses like clarity, direction and to feel confident in what is asked of them so they are likely to also have been relaxed and happy in general.

The average new owner may come from a zero horsey background, be unconfident in horse handling, struggle to be clear with the horse and miss obvious cues for the horse struggling. They need to replace the knowledge learned through growing up with and working with horses, with something consciously learned. While over-analysing can result from that (and I am defintialy in this category) - I prefer it to those owners who show zero curiosity about why their horses may be napping, or figeting, or bucking or refusing and just yell at them, hit them or blame them for what is so often rider/handler problems or pain.

I was accused of 'over thinking' for Zak, Max AND Amber when they bucked/reared/broncced. Vets, my RI, my YO and various friends all said 'they are being naugty/taking the piss'. All 3 appeared sound but had injuries leading to the behaviour which I am very glad I did not ignore.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Over the years sister and I have become more and more minimalist in our approach to horse-keeping. Our current horses have never been shod, live out 24/7 with shelter available, on unimproved pasture and are fed only grass in one form or another.

We arrived at this point because we have had experience of horses reacting badly to various feeds and supplements including the more expensive/comprehensive ones that are often recommended on here.

But we were lucky in that we knew 'old horsemen' from our early days with horses.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Yes and no. Those old fashioned horse-folk knew instinctively when something was up, and acted accordingly. ..........................

I was accused of 'over thinking' for Zak, Max AND Amber when they bucked/reared/broncced. Vets, my RI, my YO and various friends all said 'they are being naugty/taking the piss'. All 3 appeared sound but had injuries leading to the behaviour which I am very glad I did not ignore.

But imo that wasn't overthinking, it was you knowing your horse but being let down by professionals. One problem is that even equine vets, these days, don't necessarily have the background to 'know' horses instinctively.

 

[paddi22]

I think a lot of the issues are made worse nowadays by horses not getting a few months off on grass with no shoes.

 

[BBP]

I don’t agree with this though. It isn’t that there are a set number of issues with horses and that now we find them more. It’s that modern horse owners CREATE a hugely increased number of issues compared with what horses were faced with before.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Patterdale]

Case in point - a few years ago I had a yearling who developed very slight lameness due to a developmental issue. I did get the vet, whose answer was surgery. I disagreed and favoured turnout and watching. The vet was quite….persuasive let’s say. Terms like ‘well it’s up to you, but I suppose it depends if you want this horse to ever have a meaningful ridden career’ etc.

I was strong enough in my convictions to just turn the horse away however, and the problem resolved within a few months and the problem never bothered the horse again. Had I gone down the surgical route, as most owners would have I believe, I would have subjected a YEARLING to surgery and a long period of box rest and rehab, with all the physical and mental issues this would bring.

I’m lucky that I rent my own land, but if I’d been on a livery yard I think there would have been a lot of pressure from novice liveries/YO to operate, rather than watch the horse be unlevel for a bit in the field.

I’ll share my views on a couple of the common horse ailments, in case anyone is interested.

LAMINITIS
They’re all too fat. Yes I know there are cases in thin horses, but let’s be honest, most of these metabolic issues are caused by fat horses. And ALL fat horses are caused by owners, we need to be honest about this. They need tons more exercise (no, groundwork and walking in hand doesn’t count) and tons less food. SO many owners revolve their lives around having their laminitic ponies on tiny bare paddocks, weighing out and soaking 400 nets a day so that Buttons doesn’t go 10 minutes without ‘forage’ because they’ve read that ‘horses must never be without forage’ or they’ll get ulcers, and feeding ‘balancers’ (don’t get me started).
So the result is that Buttons stands still all day eating, whilst the owner is mystified as to why it’s still fat. So they try ‘exercise’ which is usually the aforementioned groundwork or walking in hand. Lunging is suggested, but no, the owner has read that lunging is hard on their joints.
So it is, but not as hard on their joints as 200kg extra weight.
If they get a few days serious starving, painkillers and cold water then they usually get sounder quickly and you can start reversing the damage ie getting the weight off.

ABSCESSES
Just get the foot dug out (by a FARRIER!), wash out the hole and turn it out. Wash out the hole twice a day.
DO NOT box rest it in a stable for it to stand in poo, get a recurrent abscess, worry itself into ulcers, then injure itself when it’s finally turned back out.
DO NOT faff on endlessly with fancy poultice boots which rub the pastern. Do not get the vet for a simple abscess. Just get the hole dug then bye-bye to the field and cancel whatever you had on that week with them.

ULCERS
Ulcers are a tricky one because so much of it depends on experience. The experience to see why a horse is complaining, or to know who to ask if you can’t see it yourself. I think it’s safe to say that pretty much all ulcers are caused by management, and for that you need an experienced eye.
I do not believe in scoping horses personally, I think it’s barbaric tbh and if it didn’t have ulcers before, starving and scoping could cause them in my view. Omeprazole is a safe drug. If your horse has signs of ulcers, give it a course and see if they improve. If they do, great. It was ulcers. Give another few weeks. But have a serious look at your management.

SADDLE FITTING
Contentious issue, sorry, but horses are happy in a saddle padded up to fit them. They don’t need a £3k saddle made to measure which is then adjusted every 4 weeks meaning the horse hardly gets ridden. There are a wide variety of off the peg saddles with different trees and panels, get vaguely the right one and pad it up. How do you think all professional yards run!?
But again, we’re back to experience needed for this.

FEEDING
Horse fat? IT DOESN’T NEED FEED. No, not even a balancer. Promise.

Horse not fat? In medium to hard work (please note, medium work is not hacking 4 times a week)? Give it some feed. For slow horses, give a heating feed. For fast horses, give a non heating feed. Any will do really, they’re all much of a muchness.
However, I prefer barley for fast horses and oats for slow horses, with sugar beet. Maybe linseed if you want them shinier.

But always appropriate forage, whilst remembering that fat horses do not actually need access to food 24/7 or they will remain fat forever, plus it costs lots.

TURNOUT
All horses should be turned out with friends, there are no exceptions. If you have a horse who can’t be turned out due to psychological issues, that’s not the horse’s fault and doesn’t disprove this idea.

I could rant on all day honestly.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think the ability to analyse can save your horses life at the least transform it .
But on the day to day I think many horses would benefit from a return to management based on discipline routine and observation, I am talking about the horses carers here not the horses .
Horses do like routine it settles them particularly when you first get one .
I feed straights so I do supplement we know horses in this valley do better with some supplementation I think I screwed up this winter by not adding micronised linseed into their ration so I had to start on vitamin E in a flurry in January ,I took the linseed out because they are fat and not working that hard as in they just hack six times a week atm.
I like to use myoplast particularly in summer when I am restricting my horses the most .
If I buy a horse in poor general health and they have a poor wind I will give them ventilate and watch to see what happens .
So I am not anti supplements .
What I am is anti supplements without correct management , turnout , enough work etc .
Horses don’t need hard feed as much as many as many people think we have had horses here that hunt on forage and bit of supplement ,forage to day can be as give energy as a horse needs with no hard foods to some horses .You must observe your horse learn about each one .
I am a confident owner because I was to trained to observe and then act on one of those old fashioned yards that the management at which some people would sneer at now a days .
Like PAS I learnt from old horseman and women some had cared for horses in the First World War they where old men when I was a kid.
Many thing that got done where such good sense and they where economic for instance young horses with stifle issues went out on bare pasture that was undulating with a pony and got left a year .

But I find my self thinking when I am dealing with an issue and browsing the internet looking at stuff oh should I just try that we all human we all think let’s just leave no stone unturned it’s only £100 should I try .

 

[Patterdale]

I think a lot of the issues are made worse nowadays by horses not getting a few months off on grass with no shoes.

Yes I missed this!! My horses have November to January off and they are never any the worse for it.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think a lot of the issues are made worse nowadays by horses not getting a few months off on grass with no shoes.

So do I and circumstances are against many people being able to do that .

 

[dorsetladette]

But imo that wasn't overthinking, it was you knowing your horse but being let down by professionals. One problem is that even equine vets, these days, don't necessarily have the background to 'know' horses instinctively.

You beat me to it! I was about to say the same. That is a perfect example of 'knowing' your horse.

 

[Rowreach]

There is SO much sensible stuff on this thread so far ️

 

[GoldenWillow]

Another who goes with yes and no. I think things are over complicated, or made over complicated, for many reasons these days. Feed and supplement companies, especially feed companies have a lot to answer for, as someone who competed a JA round county show circuit off grass most do not need feed. Also the way most horses are kept now is different to 50 yrs ago, then there were few livery yards, most were kept at home, a lot on farms. They were generally exercised more, we hacked for hours every day and they were in decent sized fields of old meadow not kept on tiny areas on livery yards. Arena's weren't a thing so a lot of schooling was done out hacking or it fields not surfaces which I think is better.

But then we have the "good old days" where many had huge muscle wastage and white marks from badly fitted saddles, being "girthy" or "cold backed" was accepted as quite normal and the horse just had to get on with it, if it didn't it was shot. I can think back to a good few horses that I know can clearly see had physical problems that weren't treated or even acknowledged as a physical problem. Stable vices were more apparent, or it seems like that to me, I knew of many box walkers, wind suckers and cribbers as a child, I can only think of one I've known in the last twenty years. Tendons were treated by being fired and I don't know of any that came back 100% successfully from that alone, I think it was more likely the year off in a field that had more effect. There were good and bad nagsmen, just like there are now, some things horrified me then and still happen and horrify me now.

I think the biggest change is the amount of novice owners who don't have a sensible, experienced and common sense support network, the amount of wrong, bad and frankly scary advice I've heard supposedly experienced livery yard owners give out to those owners is unreal. So where do they go to learn? It seems to be the Internet, feed companies or professionals, the latter two who have a dog in the fight with regard to making money. I've seen far too many owners be sold new and sometimes very expensive saddles that do not and have never fitted, the novice owner is trying to do their best but are let down by professionals.

I don't think it's as simple or clear cut that the older days were better in every way, I'm talking 45 yrs ago, but there are definitely a lot of problems these days made by the way we chose, or circumstances dictate the way we keep and manage aspects of horse care.

 

[sbloom]

Breeding has changed, we dissect horses now, we know more. It is almost certainly than sport horse bodies are less healthy than they were 59 years ago, so we have to change how we t eat them to an extent. We should change training, we've gone down a grim cul de sac with the new paradigm of how an advanced horse should look, and go.

We also have quasi scientific research rolled out, extrapolated way further than it should be, confusing the hell out of everyone.

We have vets who now look first to insurance, to surgery and meds, instead of to management, old fashioned observation and understanding. We think science has all the answers.

It's no wonder we have a ton of overthinking. People may think I'm somewhat guilty of promoting it, but I'm using new approaches to try and get back to old fashioned understandings of horses that ARE mostly different, if only a little (but for many, a lot) to those that went before. We need a WAY better understanding of what a healthy horse looks like - feet, musculature and posture - and how they should move.

And yes, our soils are massively depleted across agriculture, affecting concentrates, why would that not also be true of our pastures which no longer help so many horses. Then add in climate change altering the frequency and territories of pests etc....we do have new challenges to face.

Saddles - crappy old saddles did less harm quite possibly because horses were managed better and were ridden either less (family cob that did everything including draft work) or better, and the rider affects the horse via the saddle way more than we realise. We did however actually have a huge number of issues from saddles - fistulous withers anyone? We turned the horse away, and if they didn't come right we shot them. Oversimplification but broadly true.

And yes, way more novice owners who haven't spent years and years at riding schools, don't have good help, and don't have a clue. Then the paradigm is the dysfunction that we see at the top in the competition arena. No wonder it's all gone a bit to pot.

 

[Britestar]

Another thing that is causing problems these days is that people are generally reluctant to give a horse 'time' if something is wrong to allow nature to heal, maybe with a bit of vet assistance and also with Dr. Green. People want the 'instant fix' and will often go from one 'expert' to another until a 'fix' is 'found'.

It's no longer a case of 'when will the horse be better' but 'how soon can I ride'. Even with BE the days of horses having the winter off and being brought up again in the spring seem to mainly be gone. Riders expect to compete all winter as well at dressage and/or SJ.

This. No one wants to turn the horse away for a year and give it time.
I do get why, you're paying livery and you want to enjoy what you are paying for, but its vastly under rated.

 

[SEL]

I think a wee bit rose tinted at times!!

I took some hard falls off the ponies when I was younger which probably needed vet input (or saddler) but the back man came out and cranked them around. They either improved or disappeared to a 'farm in wales' -or in the case of one put in foal because she was a nice looking mare. Ulcers, kissing spine? No idea because neither were known about then. Bute was a regular addition to feed. White marks on the back from the saddles pretty normal. Bar fired and pin fired also normal. The nappy cob who probably had PSSM and was in pain was just given a smack and had to get on with it.

The nice looking native x TB I went to look at when I finished uni who turned into a giraffe when your weight went into the saddle who I later heard bolted straight at a x-country jump, somersaulted and had to be shot - nowadays the vet would have been out to that way before it turned into a car crash.

I never remember the ponies having their teeth done and I can't imagine they miraculously didn't develop sharp points.

But I do have fond memories of being able to hack everywhere. No subsidies stopping horse riders on field margins or gates having to be locked to stop unwanted visitors - so long as we kept off the crops no one cared where we went. It was much easier to keep horses fit. We lost one of the old boys in the village last year but he used to tell me stories of where he'd ride his Dad's work horses and even the thought of riding down some of those roads would make me come out in a cold sweat now - constant stream of 60mph traffic.

 

[Patterdale]

I think a wee bit rose tinted at times!!

I took some hard falls off the ponies when I was younger which probably needed vet input (or saddler) but the back man came out and cranked them around. They either improved or disappeared to a 'farm in wales' -or in the case of one put in foal because she was a nice looking mare. Ulcers, kissing spine? No idea because neither were known about then. Bute was a regular addition to feed. White marks on the back from the saddles pretty normal. Bar fired and pin fired also normal. The nappy cob who probably had PSSM and was in pain was just given a smack and had to get on with it.

The nice looking native x TB I went to look at when I finished uni who turned into a giraffe when your weight went into the saddle who I later heard bolted straight at a x-country jump, somersaulted and had to be shot - nowadays the vet would have been out to that way before it turned into a car crash.

I never remember the ponies having their teeth done and I can't imagine they miraculously didn't develop sharp points.

But I do have fond memories of being able to hack everywhere. No subsidies stopping horse riders on field margins or gates having to be locked to stop unwanted visitors - so long as we kept off the crops no one cared where we went. It was much easier to keep horses fit. We lost one of the old boys in the village last year but he used to tell me stories of where he'd ride his Dad's work horses and even the thought of riding down some of those roads would make me come out in a cold sweat now - constant stream of 60mph traffic.

The question isn’t ‘were the good old days when we could hack all over with no hat better’ though.

The question is, do people nowadays faff and analyse too much, and this cause too many avoidable problems? I really don’t think anyone can deny that this is the case.

 

[asmp]

Playing Devils Advocate here - aren’t horses living a lot longer and in work for longer nowadays though? Back when I started riding 15 was pretty ancient for a horse. All I see now are ads that have horses for sale that no one would bought years ago as their working life would be practically over.

 

[Patterdale]

Playing Devils Advocate here - aren’t horses living a lot longer and in work for longer nowadays though? Back when I started riding 15 was pretty ancient for a horse. All I see now are ads that have horses for sale that no one would bought years ago as their working life would be practically over.

Horses have always gone on well into their late teens.

Difference now is they’re usually f***ed by age 5.