Do we over analyse horses now

[lme]

I think we do over analyse. There are so many sources of information (much of which is questionable), a myriad of different feeds / supplements and far more diagnostic / treatment options than there were before. And it is increasingly difficult to find places to keep horses whee they can get enough turnout and socialisation. Navigating that is hard.

 

[sbloom]

About 20 years ago a report stated that the average life expectancy for a sport horse in German was 7. Lots of youngsters euthanised, and then the older horses medicated for much of their lives with joint injections etc. An epidemic of lameness that we don't talk about.

Can't see that life expectancy will have improved. We have WAY more treatments now than we did so you would expect better longevity.

 

[sbloom]

I think we do over analyse. There are so many sources of information (much of which is questionable), a myriad of different feeds / supplements and far more diagnostic / treatment options than there were before. And it is increasingly difficult to find places to keep horses whee they can get enough turnout and socialisation. Navigating that is hard.

I think that's the story of all of life, and I believe part of the reason we're all overwhelmed and so many being diagnosed with ADHD, life is no longer simple in any way shape or form. More and more choice does not help the human conditionoverall.

 

[setterlover]

I have been around and had contact with horses all my life and owned my own for over 50 years (before that riding family horses I didn't own dad said you needed to have an income to be able to pay for your own horses) so I rode for my cousin who bought and sold and bred horses and ponies I.rode stuff she bought from the sales to bring on to sell and bringing on young stock as I was a lightweight rider.
I am 3rd generation horsey dad and grandad kept horses.
Over the years I have had my own horses most have been rideable into their 20's youngest I lost was 17 broken leg oldest was 37 ( ride and drive pony still sound and driving at 35!! ) the rest have been between 24 and 30 so they did live long lives back in the day.
I have been lucky to always have horses at home where you can control management and didn't have the coming and going of other horses which can be disruptive to routines.
Because I always had more than one ridden horse I was happy to turn one away for an extended period if necessary.
I do wonder if insurance has driven people to go for lots of tests and procedures because you only have a window in which to make a claim and a six month turn away would mean you could end up running out of time when a claim would be paid.

 

[dorsetladette]

I never remember the ponies having their teeth done and I can't imagine they miraculously didn't develop sharp points.

My dad had a bucket of teeth rasps - they came out in spring and he would run his thumb over all the horses teeth while holding the tongue in the other hand to keep their mouth open. If he felt a sharp edge he would take it off.

It was a little barbaric to watch - but at least they got looked at I suppose.

 

[Indy]

I think nowadays things are so much more accessible. Back when I got my first horse I used to get my latest information from Your Horse, now you just go onto google and you can find latest research. You can buy all the supplements you ever thought you needed online. Back in the 80's my local tack shop stocked stockholm tar and Carr Day and Martin coat gloss, mane and tail detangler, hoof oil and saddle soap. Now there's an array of things and if it isn't stocked in your local tack shop you can get it online.

I think the biggest negative nowadays is how accessible a school is to people. I firmly believe that a lot of lameness/joint issues are because horses spend so much of their time trotting in circles round a school on a surface and less time working on a variation of terrains/undulated ground. Back in the 80's normal folk never had a school you had to make do with a corner of the local park if you wanted to school or you used to hack.

 

[scats]

Over analysing has certainly helped me in certain situations- like with Diva when I wasn’t believed about her breathing, until it was found she had a rare full length tracheal collapse. I could have been fobbed off and continued to work her hard to ‘up her fitness’ (as suggested by vet). She could well have keeled over and killed both of us if I’d done that.

I have a friend who is struggling with her horse. She has been told it is lame behind by a vet, but in her head it shouldn’t be causing the issues it is as he’s only mildly lame and she just wants to hack. She can’t understand his sharp and dangerous behaviour and is trying every supplement and therapy under the sun, but won’t face the facts that the horse is lame and his issues likely stem from there. Perhaps that’s over-analysing as a justification for burying her head in the sand, I don’t know.

When I was a kid, if a horse was sharp or silly, you cut its feed and worked it more. If a horse went lame, you chucked it out for 6 months before you even considered doing anything else. Were there inevitable welfare issues missed as a result? Absolutely no doubt. Did it do harm to every horse? Probably not.

I wonder if the answer lies somewhere in between.

 

[reynold]

Yes I think there is an answer somewhere in between.

One of the things I hate and see a lot of is joint injections. Yes the horse carries on a lot longer (so we can see longevity increasing and older horses still 'working') but fundamentally the horse is LAME.

In the golden oldie days lameness would be looked at and then maybe turned away to see if it came right. If it was still lame it probably would be shot (or bred from if a mare - modern knowledge in regard to breeding from sound horses is not always followed but is definitely better than in the old days).

Are the modern joint injections actually the right thing for the horse or just something to 'keep it going'? I've seen many fatal laminitis cases from steroid treatment.

Keeping 'sick' animals going using ever more veterinary interventions is not always the right thing but the modern sensibilities towards death (perhaps because this generations are further time distance away from WW1 and WW2) has a part in explaining these decisions to carry on.

How many times has a post on here in regard to PTS decisions have been met with endless advice to 'keep going' and 'try this..' instead of letting the poor animal have a dignified death to end it's suffering.

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses have always gone on well into their late teens.

Difference now is they’re usually f***ed by age 5.

That’s not my experience I looked after an 18 year old hunter in my first job he was so unusual people came to look at him.
The ones lame at five where hound food with no messing in fact I suspect a lot of them got culled younger .

 

[Goldenstar]

Saddles are something that so much better now when I was working in my late teams horses with lots of white and even scarring on their backs where common place .
We could not a back I remember the first horse I knew who had its foot rayed it was huge thing now we have a mass stuff at our disposal it’s more complicated
The old horseman had in many ways an easier time the decisions were easier you had very few choices .

 

[irishdraft]

Yes I think we do over analyze too much but that's because there's so much more info out there about various ways of doing things. An example is some horses not being able to deal with grass, I remember when I first heard this I couldn't believe it, another is the fact your made to feel as though your treating your horse badly for having your horse shod, so many zealots in the horse world do make you question things and that's me who have had horses for over 40 years and i do actually ride and do stuff with them. When a novice or not so confident person hears/ sees this type of narrative it puts doubts into their minds & they get swept up in it all.

 

[RachelFerd]

It's an interesting one. I'm another one to think there's a middle ground, although I do agree with many of the points made by @Patterdale about common bad management.

I'm at a big livery yard of 100 horses on the edge of a major city. We have a lot of first-time owners and total novices. I'm the only person on the yard that events, and there are maybe 3 or 4 others that do some BD, 4 or 5 that might do some unaff SJ and hunter trials - but probably 85 of those horses are just kept to potter about with at home, maybe do some local showing... or maybe the owners had dreams of doing more but have never worked out how to do it. And probably of the 85 horses that don't do much, 80 of them are overweight.

And yet, we have regular yard weigh-ins from visiting feed companies, all of whom seem quite willing to tell those owners to feed more. It's horrifying. We've had several horses lost to laminitis in the last year alone. People just won't stop feeding them - and they don't work them either.

I time all the sessions I do with my horses as I like to know exactly how much work has been put into them - the amount of times someone comes into the arena and does less than 20 minutes work and then puts their horses away again - incredible. The amount of horses who only ever get worked in arenas and do not hack out at all - ridiculous. Owners that have no idea that they need to warm up their horses because they've only known riding schools, and are in canter within 3 minutes of being in the arena. Absolutely wild. Farriers that only come every 10 weeks because people have spent their money on so much other crap.

The amount of visiting professionals we have is crazy. The willy washer - do it yourself! The bit fitters, bridle consultants, saddle fitters, feed company reps, theraplate wobbly floor rep - all taking large sums of £££ for often little to no benefit. My two see the farrier every 5 weeks, vet whenever they need them, dentist twice a year and a sports massage probably once every couple of months. It always gets me horrified looks, but I gave up on saddle fitters a while ago - I've got 5 decent enough saddles that I use and pad-up as required - if my horses ever felt sore through their back on palpation or showed any reluctance to be tacked up or mounted, I'd change it - but they're absolutely fine.

I think the biggest problem is that a lot of people just don't really know how to ride - don't understand how to put the horse into a sensible outline and then ride it straight and in balance. If you can put a horse in good balance, ride straight and help the horse understand how to move correctly, you can avoid so many physical issues that result from incorrect movement patterns and subsequent strains and sprains.

 

[hock]

I don’t know if anyone else over analysers their horses but I can say with my hand on my heart that my over analysing has lead to really big leaps in my knowledge. “Why” is never far from my lips, I wouldn’t even want to go back 6 months and lose the knowledge I’ve learnt.

But I do have a foot in each camp though!

 

[Patterdale]

I don’t know if anyone else over analysers their horses but I can say with my hand on my heart that my over analysing has lead to really big leaps in my knowledge. “Why” is never far from my lips, I wouldn’t even want to go back 6 months and lose the knowledge I’ve learnt.

But I do have a foot in each camp though!

That’s analysing though, not over-analysing.

 

[Patterdale]

probably of the 85 horses that don't do much, 80 of them are overweight.

And yet, we have regular yard weigh-ins from visiting feed companies, all of whom seem quite willing to tell those owners to feed more. It's horrifying. We've had several horses lost to laminitis in the last year alone. People just won't stop feeding them - and they don't work them either.

This drives me absolutely wild. These people who market themselves as nutritionists but are actually salespeople are just the worst, the absolute worst for horse welfare. It’s awful.

I was at a camp last year and there was a rep from a well-known company with a weighbridge and free samples. We all queued up, me included because I wanted to know what my horse weighed.
Almost every horse was overweight, and every case she was talking them into feeding MORE. It was obscene. Low cal balancers, light chop, 2-3x a day. Constant forage. The poor novice owners were lapping it up.

She weighed mine and said well, he looks just about right. What do you feed him currently?
When I said ‘just grass’ her eyes lit up and she started down the ‘but he needs a balancer’ route. I said I didn’t use them, thanked her kindly for her time and went to go. Well she wouldn’t let it go - did I understand that I was depriving my horse of essential nutrients?? Could I myself survive on lettuce only?? So I’m afraid I let her have it.
a) the horse is not human.
b) he is an ideal weight and condition, and has a shiny coat and plenty of energy.
c) he has a field lick.

She pounced on this with ‘oh but how can you know with a lick that they’re getting enough!?’ with a triumphant grin.

‘See point B’ was my answer.

Charlatans.

 

[Rowreach]

There's a big difference between assessing a situation/behaviour/ailment and trying to establish what it is, what's causing it, what can be done, and the other thing which is going down internet rabbit holes and chucking everything at a horse just in case it's one thing or ten other things, whilst not looking at the basics.

Re the teeth thing mentioned a couple of times above, no we didn't have "dentists" back a few decades ago, but we did have farriers and vets who routinely did teeth - but of course teeth which were mostly dealing with hay and grass didn't get into the state that compound feed and sugary supplements cause these days, both by their content and the type of material the horse is having to use them on.

 

[RachelFerd]

This drives me absolutely wild. These people who market themselves as nutritionists but are actually salespeople are just the worst, the absolute worst for horse welfare. It’s awful.

I was at a camp last year and there was a rep from a well-known company with a weighbridge and free samples. We all queued up, me included because I wanted to know what my horse weighed.
Almost every horse was overweight, and every case she was talking them into feeding MORE. It was obscene. Low cal balancers, light chop, 2-3x a day. Constant forage. The poor novice owners were lapping it up.

She weighed mine and said well, he looks just about right. What do you feed him currently?
When I said ‘just grass’ her eyes lit up and she started down the ‘but he needs a balancer’ route. I said I didn’t use them, thanked her kindly for her time and went to go. Well she wouldn’t let it go - did I understand that I was depriving my horse of essential nutrients?? Could I myself survive on lettuce only?? So I’m afraid I let her have it.
a) the horse is not human.
b) he is an ideal weight and condition, and has a shiny coat and plenty of energy.
c) he has a field lick.

She pounced on this with ‘oh but how can you know with a lick that they’re getting enough!?’ with a triumphant grin.

‘See point B’ was my answer.

Charlatans.

I was fascinated to see recently that Ros Canter feeds her horses primarily on grass nuts, and keeps most of them out 20+hours a day on grass - so nothing much other than grass in various formats

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Some very good posts above.
I do what I think is right for mine, they see farrier, vet, saddle expert when needed.
They have meadow hay, proper old fashioned stuff, mostly out 24/7 (with shelters that are regularly used especially in summer).
I nod my head to the local evangelist about barefoot, I grimace at the size of the animals adjacent who see feed reps and psychics, the ever changing coaches (as horse didn't like the last one for example).
Yes, I was a teen of the 70s, some advances have been brilliant, many others not so and some downright dangerous.

I try to remember that a little bit of knowledge isn't always good.....

 

[GoldenWillow]

The question isn’t ‘were the good old days when we could hack all over with no hat better’ though.

The question is, do people nowadays faff and analyse too much, and this cause too many avoidable problems? I really don’t think anyone can deny that this is the case.

In some ways it's hard to separate the two.

45 yrs ago if I wanted to buy forage I literally went to the next door farmer and bought whatever hay he had in his barn, quite often sifting through to get the best of the bales, BTW it was 50 pence a bale. Feed, ponies didn't get feed or if they did it was down to feed store and choice of either oats, barley rings, sugar beet, bran or nuts.
Now hardly any hay is made around us let alone any small bales. So I buy haylage, I would anyway having an asthma pony, if I'm very lucky I find a local farmer who does small bales, otherwise I go to a feed store. And have a huge choice all telling theirs is suitable/the best/will do this that and the other and that is just forage. Go to buy feed and you are faced with racks and racks of different types most aimed at leisure horses (which generally don't need it!) and it to be fed in huge quantities. And you're told if you're not feeding in huge quantities you need to feed a balancer of which there are shelves of.

So people are faced with all this, research (faff and over analyse?) They generally research on Internet where peoples credentials, motives and knowledge are unknowns and so on it goes. As a child I needed to know something, I went to my Pony Club manual, or Keeping a Horse at Grass book and there was the answer, black and white telling me what to do. Now go on the Internet and either look up or ask a question and you will get 100 different answers, many geared to parting you from your money.

Supposedly faffing and over analysing by me led to my horse being diagnosed with asthma at an early stage, being managed and treated accordingly and hopefully this has led to no further damage being done to his lungs, 9 yrs on he is still fit and able to be in full work. I remember very well the "broken winded" horses of old. But I had seen and felt with another horse the same symptoms so where do you put the line between over analysing and knowledge and experience that things aren't right?

There is so much more choice of everything these days, some of which is a good thing some not which again leads to over analysing. But there is a lack of places to gain your own knowledge and experience, no more spending every weekend and school holiday working in the local yard gaining this and learning from horsemen.

People "faff and over analyse" whilst trying to do their best and cause problems whilst at other times "faffing and over analysing " can often discover a problem that can be fixed or prevented

I think over feeding, lack of suitable exercise, lack of knowledge and many livery yard management systems cause most avoidable problems rather than it being faffing and over analysing causing these problems.

Eta, whilst I was typing this TFF has summed it up much more concisely.!

 

[Ruftys mum]

In some ways it's hard to separate the two.

45 yrs ago if I wanted to buy forage I literally went to the next door farmer and bought whatever hay he had in his barn, quite often sifting through to get the best of the bales, BTW it was 50 pence a bale. Feed, ponies didn't get feed or if they did it was down to feed store and choice of either oats, barley rings, sugar beet, bran or nuts.
Now hardly any hay is made around us let alone any small bales. So I buy haylage, I would anyway having an asthma pony, if I'm very lucky I find a local farmer who does small bales, otherwise I go to a feed store. And have a huge choice all telling theirs is suitable/the best/will do this that and the other and that is just forage. Go to buy feed and you are faced with racks and racks of different types most aimed at leisure horses (which generally don't need it!) and it to be fed in huge quantities. And you're told if you're not feeding in huge quantities you need to feed a balancer of which there are shelves of.

So people are faced with all this, research (faff and over analyse?) They generally research on Internet where peoples credentials, motives and knowledge are unknowns and so on it goes. As a child I needed to know something, I went to my Pony Club manual, or Keeping a Horse at Grass book and there was the answer, black and white telling me what to do. Now go on the Internet and either look up or ask a question and you will get 100 different answers, many geared to parting you from your money.

Supposedly faffing and over analysing by me led to my horse being diagnosed with asthma at an early stage, being managed and treated accordingly and hopefully this has led to no further damage being done to his lungs, 9 yrs on he is still fit and able to be in full work. I remember very well the "broken winded" horses of old. But I had seen and felt with another horse the same symptoms so where do you put the line between over analysing and knowledge and experience that things aren't right?

There is so much more choice of everything these days, some of which is a good thing some not which again leads to over analysing. But there is a lack of places to gain your own knowledge and experience, no more spending every weekend and school holiday working in the local yard gaining this and learning from horsemen.

People "faff and over analyse" whilst trying to do their best and cause problems whilst at other times "faffing and over analysing " can often discover a problem that can be fixed or prevented

I think over feeding, lack of suitable exercise, lack of knowledge and many livery yard management systems cause most avoidable problems rather than it being faffing and over analysing causing these problems.

 

[hock]

That’s analysing though, not over-analysing.

My husband would 100% disagree with you for sure. Where’s the cut off point?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

But imo that wasn't overthinking, it was you knowing your horse but being let down by professionals. One problem is that even equine vets, these days, don't necessarily have the background to 'know' horses instinctively.

But I only developed a degree of competence and confidence in knowing my horses by intially reading widely, taking lots of advice from lots of people and - often - probably over-thinking things.

 

[Ruftys mum]

I used to exercise and endurance horse who was very successful at home and abroad competing upto 100 miles
She was fed on oats. bran and molichop. Somtimes
before a competition garlic was added.
She never ailed and was in excellent condition.
So much has changed

 

[reynold]

Is part of the problem with over analysing now down to the equine info available by Dr. Google in a similar way to people googling their own symptoms (and no they don't do that just because the NHS is in a bit of a state atm - people have done that for years)

vets and all these other 'experts' cost money so google and other people on social media with their 'pet' solutions have a lot to answer for imo.

Also often seen on here are replies to queries where the OP has already asked everyone and their dog on the yard for their opinion rather than calling the vet, including posts regarding a colicing horse. Seeking a variety of opinions is not always a bad thing but they should preferably be real qualified opinions.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

It's an interesting one. I'm another one to think there's a middl
And yet, we have regular yard weigh-ins from visiting feed companies, all of whom seem quite willing to tell those owners to feed more. It's horrifying. We've had several horses lost to laminitis in the last year alone. People just won't stop feeding them

That's awful but the fault there is with those reps, not the owners. I use a Saracens rep at all our camps who brings the weigh bridge. Regular camp participants call it the 'fat shaming session' because she tells 75% of owners that the horses are overweight. She condition scores them, explains how owners can monitor them more effectively, and gives them nutrition advice to help them lose weight.

 

[dorsetladette]

I time all the sessions I do with my horses as I like to know exactly how much work has been put into them - the amount of times someone comes into the arena and does less than 20 minutes work and then puts their horses away again - incredible. The amount of horses who only ever get worked in arenas and do not hack out at all - ridiculous. Owners that have no idea that they need to warm up their horses because they've only known riding schools, and are in canter within 3 minutes of being in the arena. Absolutely wild. Farriers that only come every 10 weeks because people have spent their money on so much other crap.

The amount of visiting professionals we have is crazy. The willy washer - do it yourself! The bit fitters, bridle consultants, saddle fitters, feed company reps, theraplate wobbly floor rep - all taking large sums of £££ for often little to no benefit. My two see the farrier every 5 weeks, vet whenever they need them, dentist twice a year and a sports massage probably once every couple of months. It always gets me horrified looks, but I gave up on saddle fitters a while ago - I've got 5 decent enough saddles that I use and pad-up as required - if my horses ever felt sore through their back on palpation or showed any reluctance to be tacked up or mounted, I'd change it - but they're absolutely fine.

I think the biggest problem is that a lot of people just don't really know how to ride - don't understand how to put the horse into a sensible outline and then ride it straight and in balance. If you can put a horse in good balance, ride straight and help the horse understand how to move correctly, you can avoid so many physical issues that result from incorrect movement patterns and subsequent strains and sprains.

It never occurred to me that people were using all the 'professionals' without covering the basic's first!

There is a massive gap in education when it comes to horse ownership. I think this is the biggest thing with avoiding bigger issues which cause us to have 'broken' horses - having the knowledge to know when something isn't quite right and knowing enough about your horse to understand when they are telling you something.

An example, One of mine took a couple of short strides this morning. When he got closer I check his leg and foot for heat, picked his foot (and the other 3) out, on finding nothing I was satisfied he just trod on a stone or something. If it happens again I will look harder, but I won't loose sleep over it.

 

[dorsetladette]

That's awful but the fault there is with those reps, not the owners. I use a Saracens rep at all our camps who brings the weigh bridge. Regular camp participants call it the 'fat shaming session' because she tells 75% of owners that the horses are overweight. She condition scores them, explains how owners can monitor them more effectively, and gives them nutrition advice to help them lose weight.

do any of them come back next time with slimmer horses?

 

[GoldenWillow]

That’s analysing though, not over-analysing.

But then what differentiates analysing and over analysing? Genuine question.

Is it checking the basics and applying common sense?

 

[RachelFerd]

That's awful but the fault there is with those reps, not the owners. I use a Saracens rep at all our camps who brings the weigh bridge. Regular camp participants call it the 'fat shaming session' because she tells 75% of owners that the horses are overweight. She condition scores them, explains how owners can monitor them more effectively, and gives them nutrition advice to help them lose weight.

The buck stops with the owner though - it is an owner's responsibility to educate themselves about basic horse health, and to seek veterinary advice about the horse's weight if they have concerns, not listen to a company feed rep.

 

[littleshetland]

This drives me absolutely wild. These people who market themselves as nutritionists but are actually salespeople are just the worst, the absolute worst for horse welfare. It’s awful.

I was at a camp last year and there was a rep from a well-known company with a weighbridge and free samples. We all queued up, me included because I wanted to know what my horse weighed.
Almost every horse was overweight, and every case she was talking them into feeding MORE. It was obscene. Low cal balancers, light chop, 2-3x a day. Constant forage. The poor novice owners were lapping it up.

She weighed mine and said well, he looks just about right. What do you feed him currently?
When I said ‘just grass’ her eyes lit up and she started down the ‘but he needs a balancer’ route. I said I didn’t use them, thanked her kindly for her time and went to go. Well she wouldn’t let it go - did I understand that I was depriving my horse of essential nutrients?? Could I myself survive on lettuce only?? So I’m afraid I let her have it.
a) the horse is not human.
b) he is an ideal weight and condition, and has a shiny coat and plenty of energy.
c) he has a field lick.

She pounced on this with ‘oh but how can you know with a lick that they’re getting enough!?’ with a triumphant grin.

‘See point B’ was my answer.

Charlatans.

Well said Patterdale! Horses are basically grass processing machines.