Daisy1905
Well-Known Member
Just out of interested, as I had a chat with a friend who said she does Prelims when she goes out but trains at Elem/Novice. Her horse is still young and can be very spooky.
Do you compete at the same level that you train at? BD Dressage
- Thread starter Daisy1905
- Start date
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
in order to make shows an easy, happy, stress free outing i would always aim to be working at least 2 levels higher at home.
there is nothing worse for the horses confidence than *winging it* in a test environment.
plus, to be competitive, you need to be VERY established, to give the impression of it being super easy.
there is nothing worse for the horses confidence than *winging it* in a test environment.
plus, to be competitive, you need to be VERY established, to give the impression of it being super easy.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
I agree with PS - shows should be enjoyed and as stress free as possible. The test should come easily and be forwards confident and flowing. I honestly think to achieve that ease of movement you need to be schooling one level above at least.
loopiesteff
Well-Known Member
I compete Elementary, and work at Ele/Med. Definitely helps to be a level above...
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
There was a very long thread on this on the BD forum a few days ago to which I, and at least another one of the people who have commented above, contributed.
The responses seemed to be split depending on whether your aim was to be very competitive (including pro or semi-pro), ultimately progress towards PSG+ and get to the Nationals most years or whether you went out for fun and to test your training.
The people who fell into the more serious camp seemed to agree that training at least one level above competing was advisable.
I fell into the latter camp - I had the fortune/misfortune to qualify for a championship at a level above my normal which meant I had to raise my game considerably in order have the best chance at the championship. My first BD tests at that level scored fairly low but gave me loads of pointers to work on. I found this hugely more satisfying and challenging than beavering away at home and not putting my training to the test.
I don't find dressage particularly stressful (I'm an eventer by trade), I'm not asking my horse to do anything hugely out of his comfort zone and I don't think it's affecting his confidence. If I c0ck up a stride to a solid XC oxer it could have hugely serious and potentially fatal consequences for either or both of us. If our walk pirouettes are a bit big or our half-pass doesn't quite hit the marker then it's really not the end of the world and I'll try to fix it for next time.
If I'd stayed at Nov I'd have given up BD as I really found it dull. Being able to compete at Elem and Medium, even if we don't get >65% every time out has retained the interest and challenge for me. It's the level we train at at home and I love going out every fortnight or so to put it to the test and try to creep the marks ever higher and higher. I may even appear at an AF before the end of the year! One day we'll win (and not just by default) and I'll be thrilled. Until then I'm just happy improving.
The responses seemed to be split depending on whether your aim was to be very competitive (including pro or semi-pro), ultimately progress towards PSG+ and get to the Nationals most years or whether you went out for fun and to test your training.
The people who fell into the more serious camp seemed to agree that training at least one level above competing was advisable.
I fell into the latter camp - I had the fortune/misfortune to qualify for a championship at a level above my normal which meant I had to raise my game considerably in order have the best chance at the championship. My first BD tests at that level scored fairly low but gave me loads of pointers to work on. I found this hugely more satisfying and challenging than beavering away at home and not putting my training to the test.
I don't find dressage particularly stressful (I'm an eventer by trade), I'm not asking my horse to do anything hugely out of his comfort zone and I don't think it's affecting his confidence. If I c0ck up a stride to a solid XC oxer it could have hugely serious and potentially fatal consequences for either or both of us. If our walk pirouettes are a bit big or our half-pass doesn't quite hit the marker then it's really not the end of the world and I'll try to fix it for next time.
If I'd stayed at Nov I'd have given up BD as I really found it dull. Being able to compete at Elem and Medium, even if we don't get >65% every time out has retained the interest and challenge for me. It's the level we train at at home and I love going out every fortnight or so to put it to the test and try to creep the marks ever higher and higher. I may even appear at an AF before the end of the year! One day we'll win (and not just by default) and I'll be thrilled. Until then I'm just happy improving.
RobinHood
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything gamebird has said above. I compete at medium when really our half pass is shoddy, walk pirouettes are hit and miss and lengthened trot strides non-existent. I ride a new forest pony and we do dressage for fun. He enjoys training and competing and unless he's being challenged he starts looking for his own entertainment. If we do a bad half pass in a test he's not in the last bit stressed by it, on the contrary he thinks he's rather brilliant.
Ultimately I suppose it depends on the individual horse, but I know that competing my chap at a level he's not established at doesn't phase him in the slightest. He doesn't stress about learning new things and he's not worried by making mistakes so the challenge of a harder test is a good mental workout for him.
Ultimately I suppose it depends on the individual horse, but I know that competing my chap at a level he's not established at doesn't phase him in the slightest. He doesn't stress about learning new things and he's not worried by making mistakes so the challenge of a harder test is a good mental workout for him.
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
I agree with the points that it depends on how you train and on the individual horse and on the situation. I think that some people are very good at sticking to levels when they are training, so that if you were to ask them what level they were training a particular horse at they would easily be able to tell you. I not very good at sticking to levels, particularly when the horse is young, so sometimes out competing I'm throwing them in at the deep end a little, and sometimes I'm very confident they are ok at that level.
My 4yo for example, can currently do a pretty decent shoulder in, leg yeild, half pass and travers in walk and trot, but even in a prelim I think he'd be getting 4s and 5s for his canter work. The reason I've done a lot of lateral work with him is because he enjoys it and is good at it, and every time I do a little more with him there's an improvement that sticks. But if he was intended for sale at any discernible point in the future then I would probably have done more work on the canter.
My 4yo for example, can currently do a pretty decent shoulder in, leg yeild, half pass and travers in walk and trot, but even in a prelim I think he'd be getting 4s and 5s for his canter work. The reason I've done a lot of lateral work with him is because he enjoys it and is good at it, and every time I do a little more with him there's an improvement that sticks. But if he was intended for sale at any discernible point in the future then I would probably have done more work on the canter.
Last edited:
oap
Well-Known Member
Im with gamebird and Robinhood too... I use dressage to test my training, not to prove to myself how clever I am. I'm not going to hurt either of us if it goes a bit wrong and we will learn from it. Im not good enough at dressage to ever win anything, so get more satisifaction from getting 60% in an elimentary than 66% in a prelim, but fully understandand and sympathise with the other theory - if you ar me you have to not mind making a fool of yourself ocassionally ( or even frequently!)
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I'm with Robin Hood and Gamebird. I enjoy doing more complicated tests and find competing at one never mind two levels below my work at home excruciatingly boring.
I'm not motivated by points or rosettes, but by progression in my horse, and I compete mainly for the day out and to give me something to aim at when working day to day.
I've felt sneered at on this forum for my 55% scores in medium tests, but my horse and I were both happier at that level and that's all that matters really.
It isn't a career for most of us, so I think people should do what they enjoy
I'm not motivated by points or rosettes, but by progression in my horse, and I compete mainly for the day out and to give me something to aim at when working day to day.
I've felt sneered at on this forum for my 55% scores in medium tests, but my horse and I were both happier at that level and that's all that matters really.
It isn't a career for most of us, so I think people should do what they enjoy
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
Oh I am, expressly so! I usually manage to pick up a couple of points and a placing for even my mediocre performances, which is more than I'd manage if I pushed above my level BE. I won't ever be going to the Nationals, I may never even go the the Regionals but I wouldn't do it if I wasn't a competitive person. Oddly 60% doesn't get you a rosette at Prelim but quite often does at Medium.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
^^ this, this, this for me
I hardly ever go to a show but when I do, I use it to get a bit of outside feedback on how we are doing. Usually come away with a frilly and have not *yet*
come home with no points so we can't be doing that bad! I don't feel like we are winging it tbh, if I do more than 2 shows in a season then we have qualified for regionals and AFs etc. But I have never competed below the level I'm training, it's just not exciting enough for me. I need to feel like I earned the success on the day, defeated the odds, whatever! Guess that's the frustrated eventer talking.
Pigeon
Well-Known Member
P schools at elementary on a good day. He can do bits and pieces of higher movements as well, little bit of passage, half pass, canter halt, the beginnings of piris etc.
We have yet to do a BD test. He has gone out to unaff novice one week and behaved beautifully and scored 76%, then to an intro the next, where he spent most of the test on his back legs and got 42%!!! I think it's a 'new place' issue. I'll be sticking to prelim until we get some level of consistency!
My reasoning is that if we're competing at a lower level, I don't need to worry so much about the actual test, and more about keeping his attention and keeping him grounded and not falling off!
We have yet to do a BD test. He has gone out to unaff novice one week and behaved beautifully and scored 76%, then to an intro the next, where he spent most of the test on his back legs and got 42%!!!
I think it's a 'new place' issue. I'll be sticking to prelim until we get some level of consistency!My reasoning is that if we're competing at a lower level, I don't need to worry so much about the actual test, and more about keeping his attention and keeping him grounded and not falling off!
Last edited:
miss_c
Well-Known Member
G schools Novice/Elementary, with a little bit of higher stuff that she finds easy - she loves to volunteer Piaffe although it's not completely correct. We've also been working on baby travers and renvers and starting to think about half pass. Competition wise we are just making the step up to Novice at BD and doing better than I thought, but a passable Elementary test is still a way off. At Prelim she has once again qualified for Regionals, and will do Petplans at Novice.
Theocat
Well-Known Member
We're competing (although not particularly competitive!) at prelim level and probably schooling at Intro at home But it's his canter that lets us down when he gets excited / distracted, and it's never going to get better if we don't just get on with it when we're out and about.
We're both bored of prelim so we'll have a crack at novice soon - at worst we'll have bad scores, at best it will give a bit more focus and oomph to our training, and attempting a few strides of medium trot won't do him any harm at all. I suspect that he'll prefer Novice anyway because there's more to think about - either way, it will be fun to give it a go, and that's what dressage is all about for me
But it's his canter that lets us down when he gets excited / distracted, and it's never going to get better if we don't just get on with it when we're out and about. We're both bored of prelim so we'll have a crack at novice soon - at worst we'll have bad scores, at best it will give a bit more focus and oomph to our training, and attempting a few strides of medium trot won't do him any harm at all. I suspect that he'll prefer Novice anyway because there's more to think about - either way, it will be fun to give it a go, and that's what dressage is all about for me
Eventer96
Well-Known Member
We're competing (although not particularly competitive!) at prelim level and probably schooling at Intro at home
We're both bored of prelim so we'll have a crack at novice soon - at worst we'll have bad scores, at best it will give a bit more focus and oomph to our training, and attempting a few strides of medium trot won't do him any harm at all. I suspect that he'll prefer Novice anyway because there's more to think about - either way, it will be fun to give it a go, and that's what dressage is all about for me
It's an interesting debate. I've just made my BD debut today. I train at Elementary/Medium at home (half pass isn't quite fully established yet) and usually do one Novice and one Elementary test at unaffililiated. We did two Novice tests today at a new venue for us. Despite being relatively old horsey still has a tendency to tense up when faced with a new environment. Very happy to win both classes in the restricted section and come away with 8 points. I will move up when we're scoring 70%+ at Novice. We are off to the BRC championships where we have qualified for the Novice and Elementary so I shall see how he copes with the Elementary in a buzzy atmosphere to see how he copes. Really wouldn't want to be competing against horses that are fully established at Medium when in a Novice. Can entirely see the reason for being one level above though.
rara007
Well-Known Member
I fall into the train and compete at same level group. Pip for example never did get the hang of lateral work, yet got elem scores in the high 60s. I only do low levels as I'm not a 'pure' dressage person but preliminary is so so dull, and some elem tests suit what I ride better than some novices so we just go for it.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
i do *get* the training and competing at same level thing, if (for whatever reason) the horse is unlikely to be super competitive, no point boring the balls off yourself for no good reason etc.
Personally, i dont find the show day boring, whatever the level, as i use the higher level training to focus on and keep us both on the ball mentally.
Its easier to take a few risks on a more laid back sort too, something very hot or nevy wont thank you for going outside the comfort zone in the ring.
theres also a huge huge diff between *having a go* at a level when you are 80% established(absolutely fine for the reasons outlined by Gamebird etc) and entering a level that you are in no way ready to tackle-if the judge is getting out the car at the end and telling you to stop riding at this level, take note perhaps?! (yes, really, heard of this happening!)
Personally, i dont find the show day boring, whatever the level, as i use the higher level training to focus on and keep us both on the ball mentally.
Its easier to take a few risks on a more laid back sort too, something very hot or nevy wont thank you for going outside the comfort zone in the ring.
theres also a huge huge diff between *having a go* at a level when you are 80% established(absolutely fine for the reasons outlined by Gamebird etc) and entering a level that you are in no way ready to tackle-if the judge is getting out the car at the end and telling you to stop riding at this level, take note perhaps?! (yes, really, heard of this happening!)
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Oh yes, I've been told to go back to the drAwing board with one horse
. Trouble is, the judge was completely unaware that the drawing board was jumping the judge's car and bolting 200 metres through the equestrian centre back to the warm-up, and that for me and this horse I had already 'won' just to stay in the ring and score mid fifty. And last time out with my current horse I was advised by the judge that my horse needed a man on him. Actually what he needs, we found out a week later, is the kissing spines operation that he gets on September 3rd. Thank goodness I didn't take her advice
Last edited:
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Yes I suspect it is horse dependent, Like Robinhood's newforest Frank is not going to get too stressed by something going wrong. We have schooled and competed at elementary, though we will pick elementary tests with care (his first simple change will always be a bit dud and our counter canters need to be carefully ridden - but our lateral work comes quite easily and it is nice to actually get to do some in a test - maybe we need a novice+ test ).
Will only do novice these days though as he is getting a bit older as for the elementary work he gets lots of 'needs take more weight behind' comments which he just physically can't manage so well these days- although if he moves to be with me and gets more schooling you never know 
.
and our counter canters need to be carefully ridden - but our lateral work comes quite easily and it is nice to actually get to do some in a test - maybe we need a novice+ test ). Will only do novice these days though as he is getting a bit older as for the elementary work he gets lots of 'needs take more weight behind' comments which he just physically can't manage so well these days- although if he moves to be with me and gets more schooling you never know
.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Have to confess that I'm confused by this idea that the horse will be stressed or even permanently damaged by getting a bit of the test wrong. The horse only knows it's wrong if the rider tells it so in some way. Me, I ruin whole tests with my own tension at being judged, sometimes 
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
I agree with both of these statements. My horses are generally laid back and forgiving (I keep getting comments about one having a 'super attitude' from a List 1 judge, which I am assuming means 'puts up with/ignores idiotic rider'
). I suspect something properly hot or bred for the top might be less inclined to take a joke and spit the dummy out if you confused it by asking for something it didn't understand. You might lose the rest of the test by asking one question too many whereas I'll generally only lose that one movement.oap
Well-Known Member
Have to confess that I'm confused by this idea that the horse will be stressed or even permanently damaged by getting a bit of the test wrong. The horse only knows it's wrong if the rider tells it so in some way. Me, I ruin whole tests with my own tension at being judged, sometimes
thats me too!!!!
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
super talented horses tend to generally be over achievers, really want to please and get upset if they get it wrong.
In a test environment , under pressure to do a move at a certain marker, its not fair on that sort of horse to do something before its *blindfolded and one hoof tied up* level of established.
taking Fig as an eg (i know NMT wont mind). He is a super clever horse, probably more talented than CS as he is quick behind, finds collection easy but has a lovely lovely attitude too.
He could easily do A102 or A105 but he's still at the stage where if he misses a change or loses the angle in the HP slightly, he gets worried he's done it wrong.
he needs to do a stretchy circle and have a big cuddle and then try again, and its pointless to do a test knowing that might happen.
one day it would go fine, the next maybe not. its not worth risking a potential GP horse for the sake of competing at a very very easy level for the rest of the year.
CS is tricky and talented in different ways, he doesnt get stressed/anticipate in the same way Fig can, but he doesnt tolerate fools..............and i would be a fool to go and do an I2 on him now, even though he schools it all at home.
he would get angry in the piaffe and tell me (rightly) to do one, and id have taken a massive step back in terms of submission and trainability.
CPT-even if horses dont want to play ball on a certain day, correct training/basics are easy to see in the good moments so perhaps the judge was more worth listening to that you initially thought?
it will be interesting to see how things progress after the back op, very interesting
In a test environment , under pressure to do a move at a certain marker, its not fair on that sort of horse to do something before its *blindfolded and one hoof tied up* level of established.
taking Fig as an eg (i know NMT wont mind). He is a super clever horse, probably more talented than CS as he is quick behind, finds collection easy but has a lovely lovely attitude too.
He could easily do A102 or A105 but he's still at the stage where if he misses a change or loses the angle in the HP slightly, he gets worried he's done it wrong.
he needs to do a stretchy circle and have a big cuddle and then try again, and its pointless to do a test knowing that might happen.
one day it would go fine, the next maybe not. its not worth risking a potential GP horse for the sake of competing at a very very easy level for the rest of the year.
CS is tricky and talented in different ways, he doesnt get stressed/anticipate in the same way Fig can, but he doesnt tolerate fools..............and i would be a fool to go and do an I2 on him now, even though he schools it all at home.
he would get angry in the piaffe and tell me (rightly) to do one, and id have taken a massive step back in terms of submission and trainability.
CPT-even if horses dont want to play ball on a certain day, correct training/basics are easy to see in the good moments so perhaps the judge was more worth listening to that you initially thought?
it will be interesting to see how things progress after the back op, very interesting
KPM
Well-Known Member
I have to echo PS with regards to 'knocking' somes horses by taking it out at a level where it can't do it all with its eyes shut. My older mare would have been fine and done her best to do as I asked. My young lad however, who is way more talented, is schooling Elem-Med, starting changes and P work at home, but we are going out at Prelim- because he practically melts down at shows and goes compltely introverted. At prelim I can 'baby' him around a test with no pressure and no worry, rather than having to push him for the connection that is needed for higher levels, despite the fact this is 'standard' at home.
I too can see both side of the argument, i guess it really is horses for courses...
I too can see both side of the argument, i guess it really is horses for courses...
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Are you suggesting Frank's not super talented
We're going to sell them for thousands
I suppose there is something to be said for being non stressy in a competition environment being a good talent to have in a comp horse too though.
We're going to sell them for thousands
I suppose there is something to be said for being non stressy in a competition environment being a good talent to have in a comp horse too though.
ann-jen
Well-Known Member
The old girl (currently recovering from injury) was competing at elementary and training at elem/medium at home. She is not naturally gifted at dressage, she could produce the movements required for higher but not at a standard that would make us competitive so will stick with elementary when she comes back into work and see how things go long term.
The new girl I think ultimately has the potential to do well in dressage and can do a lot of the movements required higher than prelim where we are currently competing, but some of the very basic aspects of dressage are wobbly as she's young and inexperienced such as straightness and suppleness so I feel I need to nail this before moving on competively. She also lacks confidence away from home so needs more outings to improve her general test performance. The medium trot is good but what's the point of moving into novice until I can ride a good centre line? Least that's how I see it anyway
The new girl I think ultimately has the potential to do well in dressage and can do a lot of the movements required higher than prelim where we are currently competing, but some of the very basic aspects of dressage are wobbly as she's young and inexperienced such as straightness and suppleness so I feel I need to nail this before moving on competively. She also lacks confidence away from home so needs more outings to improve her general test performance. The medium trot is good but what's the point of moving into novice until I can ride a good centre line? Least that's how I see it anyway
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting Frank's not super talented
We're going to sell them for thousands
I suppose there is something to be said for being non stressy in a competition environment being a good talent to have in a comp horse too though.
totally agree,we always say if we had CS front legs, Fig's hind legs, Figs attitude, CS's lack of spooking/anticipating, we would have the perfect horse lol!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
So if we ever see one of you out there with a chainsaw we'll know why!
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
.
CPT-even if horses dont want to play ball on a certain day, correct training/basics are easy to see in the good moments so perhaps the judge was more worth listening to that you initially thought?
it will be interesting to see how things progress after the back op, very interesting
Nah, with the 'back to basics' judge she just couldn't understand why I was riding in a qualifier on a horse who couldn't possibly qualify. She's a humourless, miserable 'don't you know who I am?' woman I have the misfortune to ride in front of regularly. She once told me, BEFORE I started the test, that she was offended that my horse was not plaited. There is no requirement in the rulebook to plait but if she had to comment it should have been after I finished, not before I had even started.
The 'he needs a man on him' judge just got it wrong and my horse is lucky that I knew better than to attempt to use a stronger rider than me to force him to do what he is told without finding out whether his behaviour was caused by pain.
Last edited: