Wagtail
Horse servant
Biting IS attacking, isn't it? I make the distinction between biting and nipping. Nipping, is usually play related, and can easily be trained out of a horse, often without resorting to hitting. Biting is more serious.
Do You Smack your horse?
- Thread starter Dizzy socks
- Start date
Biting IS attacking, isn't it? I make the distinction between biting and nipping. Nipping, is usually play related, and can easily be trained out of a horse, often without resorting to hitting. Biting is more serious.
lastchancer
Well-Known Member
He isn't anymore, I got him used to the whip as explained in an earlier post.
That's what I was asking, in your opinion was I wrong to use the whip carefully in a controlled environment, so that he could learn that no everyone would beat him senseless? And if I was wrong, how else could I have approached the issue?
He must have been thrashed badly at some point as he was terrified or men, whips and loud shouty people. To the extent that he was afraid to walk by dog walkers when we were out.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Going round and round here.
You have to do what you think best and what you are capable of doing. I wouldn't resort to hitting, you obviously want to.
Accurately, sorting out what your problem is is your first hurdle.
Of course trying to set little tests for me is fun, especially when you can come back with , 'Tried that didn't work,' scenarios. Honestly Wagtail, I was born at night, not last night.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
IMO a whip is just a stick and can be as unthreatening as an extension of your arm, I think you are right to get him used to a whip and to understand that not everyone will thrash him. In fact you'd be failing if you didn't. Sounds like this horse was in a poor way and you have done wonders with him.
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lastchancer
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I had to sell him in the end due to financial reasons, he's doing well though.
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
Yes, always difficult when you've taken over someone else's work! Isn't it peculiar how many people shout loudly at an animal in what is already a stressful situation and expect it to calm down, come back to them etc., etc., and a lot of them wave a big stick as well!
I retrained my mare to accept me carrying a long stick - I only ever used this as an extension of my hand to help push her bum over on the odd occasion she needed it. I'm quite sure that all horses have the intelligence to work out the difference in people just as they are among the herd - some people will hit you, some won't just as some horses kick out and some never do.
I'll also accept that just by carrying the stick to start with probably terrorised the poor old girl as she was often beaten ( used advisedly ) at the school of equitation she lived despite it's international reputation! In fact, the first dealings I had with her was walking out on to the hallowed riding surface and threatening a client with being being beaten to a pulp by me if he hit her again! I regard that as one of the defining moments of my life.
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
There are always those who can't control their temper. But the massively 'anti smacking' often fail to differentiate between a well timed and well deserved smack, applied with no emotional attachment, and beating your horse in frustration (or even just slapping it once out of anger).
I can terrify most horses (should I want to!?) without even touching them. If a horse kicked out at me I can make them think the world is ending without going within 2 feet of them. The 'anti smacking' brigade seem to believe that smacking is somehow a break down in emotional intelligence as they feel it is always given in anger or fear. It rarely is, and is driving your horse away (which moving away because it knows it leads to an unpleasant repercussions if it doesn't) BETTER than a well timed, not-particularly painful , smack? There are time when a smack to say 'no you bloody don't' if more useful and appropriate than making them move away. And when applied properly, if often less frightened for the horse than being driven off.
I can terrify most horses (should I want to!?) without even touching them. If a horse kicked out at me I can make them think the world is ending without going within 2 feet of them. The 'anti smacking' brigade seem to believe that smacking is somehow a break down in emotional intelligence as they feel it is always given in anger or fear. It rarely is, and is driving your horse away (which moving away because it knows it leads to an unpleasant repercussions if it doesn't) BETTER than a well timed, not-particularly painful , smack? There are time when a smack to say 'no you bloody don't' if more useful and appropriate than making them move away. And when applied properly, if often less frightened for the horse than being driven off.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
Yes, I obviously WANT to hit horses because I enjoy it very much.
I always try the softly softly approach first. Pushing away, playing with the nose (I had genuinely forgotten we tried that). I am not testing you, PR. No point in telling porkies to win arguments. It's not something that has ever appealed to me.
I don't think that ALL horses need to be hit (and by hit, I am talking about elbow meeting nose, or upwards slap with the back of the hand), but for some, a softly softly approach does not work. I know that, because I have many years of experience in training horses. But you should always try a gentler approach first. I just don't think you have met a challenging horse yet.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
I really don't know what PR is trying to achieve by going on and on about no smacking??
Does he think if he goes on long enough he will wear us down into his way of thinking?? Or is he trying to start with us then going on to change the world like a one man crusade.
Its getting just a tad repetitive we know you don't hit, but do you have to keep ramming it down our throats.
I think most of us have expressed whether we smack or not. We all have different views about this and when we would/wouldn't do it.
He has a trate to not answer some questions put to him, probably because he does not know the answer so answers the question with another question.
Most of us sane people will always do the soft approach first then follow up with a smack, a bit like if the horse ignores your leg you use a schooling whip. or are you against those as well????
Does he think if he goes on long enough he will wear us down into his way of thinking?? Or is he trying to start with us then going on to change the world like a one man crusade.
Its getting just a tad repetitive we know you don't hit, but do you have to keep ramming it down our throats.
I think most of us have expressed whether we smack or not. We all have different views about this and when we would/wouldn't do it.
He has a trate to not answer some questions put to him, probably because he does not know the answer so answers the question with another question.
Most of us sane people will always do the soft approach first then follow up with a smack, a bit like if the horse ignores your leg you use a schooling whip. or are you against those as well????
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Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Yes, I obviously WANT to hit horses because I enjoy it very much.
I always try the softly softly approach first. Pushing away, playing with the nose (I had genuinely forgotten we tried that). I am not testing you, PR. No point in telling porkies to win arguments. It's not something that has ever appealed to me.
I don't think that ALL horses need to be hit (and by hit, I am talking about elbow meeting nose, or upwards slap with the back of the hand), but for some, a softly softly approach does not work. I know that, because I have many years of experience in training horses. But you should always try a gentler approach first. I just don't think you have met a challenging horse yet.
Of course I don't think you want to hit your horse, I get a bit waspish sometimes, age I expect.
I know that some horses can be really difficult and hard to deal with, I know that it's not their fault nor the person trying to deal with all this. I also know that there is no magic wand or quick fix.
Believe me, I have met some real beauties in my time. When a horse decides hes up for a fight instead of flight then you better have your brain in gear because he's faster, fitter, harder than you. He'll kick you, strike you and bite you. He'll use his speed, athleticism and weight, if you think hitting him is an answer, he'll bury you.
I don't throw advice around like confetii on here because it can get people killed, or badly hurt anyway, when they get it wrong, because they will. It's doing the right thing at the appropreate time and getting the timing spot on that works with horses, and you cannot explain the half of it on a forum.
Doing what I do isn't a soft option for a horse and some make you put enormous amounts of pressure on them in order to get them working with you. The only thing I don't do is hit them, this covers everything from a slap, a tap with a whip to a thrashing.
If his nose meets your elbow thats a block, if you elbow him in the nose thats a strike.
At the end of the day, if a person slaps a horse, unless they have no feeling or shame it's the person who feels it more. I always say, do without your crutch (crop), for a couple of weeks and see how it feels. Not many pick it up again.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
"There are always those who can't control their temper. But the massively 'anti smacking' often fail to differentiate between a well timed and well deserved smack, applied with no emotional attachment, and beating your horse in frustration (or even just slapping it once out of anger). "
Noooo, to be fair, I think that the anti-smacking people think there is never any justification for a slap, whether or not the human considers it to be well timed and well deserved. Emotional detachment doesn't come into it really.
Noooo, to be fair, I think that the anti-smacking people think there is never any justification for a slap, whether or not the human considers it to be well timed and well deserved. Emotional detachment doesn't come into it really.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
What I am constantly trying to achieve is a partnership between me and the horse, where we both have our roles and responsibilities.
I choose direction and gait.
He maintains direction and gait until asked to change.
I provide leadership and safety.
He accepts that and doesn't start making his own decisions, being fearful and allowing his natural instincts to take over to get him out of trouble.
No I don't want an automaton, I want a horse who is comfortable in his skin and his world working with me, aware of his role and not having to be micro managed all the time.
Not much to ask really,
Ditto. Your way, never ever smacking a horse, is not the only way and with some horses it is not even a safe way.
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The only way to get a horse (unless it was naturally born totally dull in the brain) which never, ever oversteps a boundary is if it is drilled to within an inch of its life to watch out for any human near it. I think you will find that is the essence of the Parelli "both eyes on me or I'll smack you under the jaw with the clip on this lunge line" reasoning. I've seen some depressed looking horses trained to do just that through what were supposedly "games" but actually were training in total domination.
I would rather have to very occasionally remind a horse to step out of my way as I come into their stable because it has temporarily focussed on something interesting/frightening in the yard, than I would have that level of slavish attention to what I want of him. I am his leader, not his despotic dictator.
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Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
But you DO !
You throw advice not to ever hit a horse around like confetti on any thread that comes up about it, without ever giving anyone any advice to what they should do instead.
Anyone could do that, PR, but the holier than thou attitude that you also take when you do it is quite unique, that I will give you.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I bet you have seen a lot of depressed horses,
Only in the hands of other people PR.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Great, now we may get somewhere...
Completely agree. There is one horse on my yard that would give you both barrels if you even LOOKED like you might hit him. Out of the other six, four of them I have never hit (have have had all of them here at least two years)
One, my mare, I haven't hit for around seven years. We have a fabulous relationship, closer than I could ever have imagined. She is the only horse I ALLOW to play with me (and that includes with teeth). She knows exactly how hard to nibble without it hurting a human. She will never be passed on (otherwise I wouldn't have allowed this). The last one is the foal that has turned nine months old today. Just measured him and he's actually 15 hh at the wither!
Now I have a DUTY to ensure that he becomes the most well mannered and gentle giant possible. It is a huge responsibility as I do all of the handling. He is a cheeky chappie who I have tried all the non hitting methods with. He only understood not to bite when I finally slapped his nose. The past two days he's been trying a new trick, of running over me. He got a couple of sharp tugs on his nose and was an angel to lead when I got him out this morning. Now a different, less boistrous and confident foal probably wouldn't need any of this at all.I actually think a lot of NH methods are quite harsh, far harsher than I would be with any horse.
One question, what do you feel about people poking horses in the sides with their heels to move them forwards when riding? This would hurt every bit as much as a slap on the chest or an elbow in the neck.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
Did you really write that you don't want your horse to make his own decisions? Surely NH is about allowing a horse to make its own decisions within a safe framework of choices?
I'd rather Kal made the decision and learned from the consequence than obeyed me blindly without using his (very lively) brain. And, yes, sometimes the consequence is that he runs into my pointy elbow with his nose, or he gets a warning finger raised and an appropriate noise when he goes to nip or do something else undesirable.
He HAS met the flat of my hand once or twice . . . but I've also employed other methods to express my disapproval, including having a full on tantrum when he nipped me on the way to the field - shocked him so much he forgot to use me as a chew toy
. Most of the time I just use my body language to back him up if he's getting a bit full of himself, but sometimes - just sometimes - he needs a short, sharp reminder (and I'm talking about probably once or twice a year).P
P
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Here is PR's next project.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
I'd agree that some NH methods can be harsh. There are as many different methods as there are trainers though.
Personally I don't poke with my heels, I may squeese with my legs if I'm not getting forward, but I'm looking for forward through raised energy level moving forward, but, no I don't jab with heels.
Wagtail
Horse servant
That bear is amazing AA.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
You are correct . . . for some horses some of the time . . . perhaps even most horses most of the time . . . but sometimes said horse is just being cheeky and chancing his/her arm. GreyDonkey is currently on box rest following surgery . . . he has already leaned on his stall chain hard enough for the clip to snap and he made off across the yard - he wasn't frightened of his stable, he just took the opportunity to be out. End of. He didn't get a smack for that . . . because he didn't do anything that warranted being hit . . . but, it's a great illustration of the fact that not everything horses do is governed by their flight instinct. GD is one of those horses who gets nippy if fed treats by hand. I always put treats in either his feed bowl or his treat ball, but (and this is the downside of being on a large livery yard and not being there all the time) my (former) fieldmates always take treats up when they catch their horses in and give treats to all three . . . so I need to stay on top of GD's nipping (not caused by me).
P
Wagtail
Horse servant
You are used to QHs and arabs. They are naturally forward going. Once I have schooled a horse, they are very light off the leg, so no need to jab them with the heels. However, some horses come to me that are 'dead to the leg'. How would you deal with this?
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
If you say so.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by AengusOg
something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
I don't know how you did this, but these are not my words, PolarSkye.
Originally Posted by AengusOg
something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
I don't know how you did this, but these are not my words, PolarSkye.
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Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Did you really write that you don't want your horse to make his own decisions? Surely NH is about allowing a horse to make its own decisions within a safe framework of choices?
I'd rather Kal made the decision and learned from the consequence than obeyed me blindly without using his (very lively) brain. And, yes, sometimes the consequence is that he runs into my pointy elbow with his nose, or he gets a warning finger raised and an appropriate noise when he goes to nip or do something else undesirable.
He HAS met the flat of my hand once or twice . . . but I've also employed other methods to express my disapproval, including having a full on tantrum when he nipped me on the way to the field - shocked him so much he forgot to use me as a chew toy
P
In context, so long as we are within the framework fine. What I'm saying is I don't want him thinking in a tricky situation, he is a better leader than me and taking over, you know all the usual things that can happen bogging off or trying to go home. This can only be achieved by him being confident in my role as leader.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Is it actually possible for the average human to hurt a horse by slapping it with an open hand, biffing it with a closed fist or elbowing the neck or shoulder?
I would say that the most I manage to do is to alert the horse to what I am asking it to do that it wasn't listening to. I might shock it, but hurt it? I don't think so. If it actually hurt the horse I think it would cripple me!
Wagtail
Horse servant
I was having a good think about just that whilst mucking out earlier. It is nothing compared to what they are capable of doing and do do to each other. I think the reason why a (well timed) smack works, is because they understand it. They know the intention behind it. Not because it hurts them.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Yes I have QH's and Arabs, I tend to get a lot of WB's now, fashion being what it is, I've got one myself now, lol.
Groundwork, millions of transitions, directional changes the lot. I'd be looking for walk to canter, canter to stop and all other combinations of transition on the ground. When I was getting this with the smallest ask, I'd transfer it to the saddle. I certainly wouldn't rush it, and its got to be right on the ground before you go back to riding.