Does the Horse World disproportionately attract abusive people?

stangs said:
As a general rule, I don’t agree that the horse world attracts abusive people. What I do think, however, is that people often get exposed to violence to horses from a young age, and get desensitised to it. Then stress (particularly for those working in the equine industry for whom a horse’s behaviour can be the difference between a good day at work or not - pro riders, riding school staff, livery YMs) combines with that desensitisation to tip their behaviour into abuse territory.

E.g., I watched a lesson once where one particular horse was acting up, setting off the other horses and making the whole lesson a disaster. Lots of muttering among the riders’ parents. Instructor grabs a hold of the horse’s reins and knees and kicks her in the stomach repeatedly.

I know for a fact that that instructor loved that same horse to the death. She cared for her obsessively. I certainly don’t think she was a naturally abusive person either. But when she was stressed, abuse was no longer abuse.

And you see the same in dog sports, in anything competitive involving young children (pageants anyone?), etc. As soon as your success is reliant on a weaker being who can’t fight back, things can slide into cruelty quite quickly.
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I agree with becoming desensitised to abuse and the stress of competition?

But how does this explain the culture in the horse world of treating both people & animals badly?
 
EventingMum said:
In the horse world I have witnessed it in different scenarios from yard b****ing in both children and adults which is often jealousy, parental or coach pressure or just nasty people to horse abuse. With horse abuse it has been driven by ignorance / lack of knowledge in some cases to a desire / pressure to win in others or just sheer temper / frustration. Whatever the root cause it has to be acknowledged that it is unacceptable in any form and there needs to be a clear protocol for raising genuine concerns and consequences for the abusers though how to actually do this will be very tricky.
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Can I add fear to this list too. I've seen abuse when a rider over horses themselves and is frightened by the horses movement, jump, reaction, size, boldness, misunderstanding of their incorrect aid (to list a few).
 
Miss_Millie said:
I agree a lot with this. At my last yard, threats of being kicked off were handed out like gift baskets for the most trivial of things. You had to keep your head down and hope that you would blend in and not get on the wrong side of anyone.
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Of course the answer to that is for owners to find a new yard and tell the abusive YO why they are leaving.
 
stangs said:
E.g., I watched a lesson once where one particular horse was acting up, setting off the other horses and making the whole lesson a disaster. Lots of muttering among the riders’ parents. Instructor grabs a hold of the horse’s reins and knees and kicks her in the stomach repeatedly.

I know for a fact that that instructor loved that same horse to the death. She cared for her obsessively. I certainly don’t think she was a naturally abusive person either. But when she was stressed, abuse was no longer abuse.
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To play devil's advocate, if that horse was a child or woman that got kicked in the stomach when the person was stressed and lost their temper, would we still see it as justifiable? Could you still say that they loved them to death if they were a human who's partner took their anger and frustration out on them by beating them?

I know that everyone has bad days or gets pushed over the edge sometimes, no-one is perfect, but repeatedly kicking a horse in the stomach is quite extreme abuse in my opinion. And yes, I have seen just as bad myself.
 
I went to a cat show once. That was an eye opener! I never saw any abuse towards the cats per se (bar them all proudly stating how they pluck their cats whiskers before a show) but some of the owners were absolutely nuts.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Of course the answer to that is for owners to find a new yard and tell the abusive YO why they are leaving.
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Well, I found myself in this position at one time, although by the time I was desperate to leave every other yard had a wait list within a 45 mile radius. I had to keep my head down until I could finally leave, and I imagine many people find themselves stuck for similar reasons.
 
- Aggressive, mean, bullying riding instructor
Miss_Millie said:
My question is are these people shaped by the majority of horsemen/women before them and by tradition, or do they simply find it easier to exist and thrive in this environment where for some reason we seem to tolerate and have become numb to both constant micro-aggressions and flat out abuse on a daily basis?
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The culture around riding instruction I think comes from the Army??? This is how my mother explained the shouting and swearing and threat of the whip.

I trained as a ski instructor and this was based on the principles of SEL
Safety
Enjoyment
Learning
and included elements of sports/ education and coaching psychology.

I don’t think the BHS training includes educational/ coaching & sports psychology ??? the same way.

I think this makes life difficult for the student & coach. For example, my instructor says ‘your hands are too low’ where a ski instructor would say ‘lift your hands…think about the position of your elbows’ .

A ski coach would ask you to visualise the correct position rather than focusing on what you are doing wrong.

We try and encourage the client to be aware of bad habits but visualise and feel positive improvements.
 
WrongLeg said:
- Aggressive, mean, bullying riding instructor

The culture around riding instruction I think comes from the Army??? This is how my mother explained the shouting and swearing and threat of the whip.

I trained as a ski instructor and this was based on the principles of SEL
Safety
Enjoyment
Learning
and included elements of sports/ education and coaching psychology.

I don’t think the BHS training includes educational/ coaching & sports psychology ??? the same way.

I think this makes life difficult for the student & coach. For example, my instructor says ‘your hands are too low’ where a ski instructor would say ‘lift your hands…think about the position of your elbows’ .

A ski coach would ask you to visualise the correct position rather than focusing on what you are doing wrong.

We try and encourage the client to be aware of bad habits but visualise and feel positive improvements.
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The new BHS exams are now literally about coaching over teaching, especially at the higher levels, and there has been a shift as a result.

However, the changes to the BHS exams when the new names/process came in in 2018 ish were highly criticised by some more old school fellows who will remain nameless, which fits with my comment above about the industry and its practices being decades behind others.
 
teapot said:
The new BHS exams are now literally about coaching over teaching, especially at the higher levels, and there has been a shift as a result.

However, the changes to the BHS exams when the new names/process came in in 2018 ish were highly criticised by some more old school fellows who will remain nameless, which fits with my comment above about the industry and its practices being decades behind others.
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This is v. interesting: I wonder what impact it is going to have.
 
I don't think the horse world disproportionately attracts abusive people. I think to the contrary, it attracts people that like horses. These days, horses are an expensive hobby and not something you'd go into with the aim of being famous and successful if you didn't like horses or possibly were brought up around them. I do think some people later get lost along the way.

First of all, I think most, if not all of us, on HHO are connected to the horse world in some way or another and I would like to think we are not all abusive horse torturers. Being connected to the horse world, we are therefore more likely to see or be aware of what we don't like about it: rough riders, crazy YOs, cranky farriers, pushy parents, etc... in a way we simply wouldn't be aware of the issues in other sports. Though possibly less violent, I suspect sports such as competitive dancing and gym, which also have a high focus of esthetics and therefore the competitors body, have the potential to be rife with psychological violence and bullying.

I also think that if you are relying on horses for your income and that income is dependent on their performance, you (one) possibly start cutting corners to get results because that's what pays the rent and puts food on the table. It's then a slippery slope down to animal abuse.

Another point is that quite a few horse people are not people people. However, most horses comes with people attached and I think many horse professions don't prepare you for interacting with people. You then start to see people as an inconvenience, that are obviously getting in your way on purpose and so on. In most cases, just like the horses, people are not deliberately being obtuse, they simply don't don't any better.

As for cliques, they are everywhere there are three or more people. There are some in my work place (mostly male, before anyone starts saying its a female trait).

I have met many kind and generous people in the horse world. People prepared hang on to your horses head while the vet is stitching up an injury, people prepared to trek around in the cold, dark and damp to help you find your escaped horse, people prepared to lend a total stranger a piece of equipment they forgot, people prepared to say a kind word to you after your last round has been a disaster, people prepared to share their knowledge for free, with no expectations in return... Those are the people the horse world needs and should have and they are also the people we can be. Of course we need to call out the bad, but please don't forget the good.
 
WrongLeg said:
- Aggressive, mean, bullying riding instructor

The culture around riding instruction I think comes from the Army??? This is how my mother explained the shouting and swearing and threat of the whip.

I trained as a ski instructor and this was based on the principles of SEL
Safety
Enjoyment
Learning
and included elements of sports/ education and coaching psychology.

I don’t think the BHS training includes educational/ coaching & sports psychology ??? the same way.

I think this makes life difficult for the student & coach. For example, my instructor says ‘your hands are too low’ where a ski instructor would say ‘lift your hands…think about the position of your elbows’ .

A ski coach would ask you to visualise the correct position rather than focusing on what you are doing wrong.

We try and encourage the client to be aware of bad habits but visualise and feel positive improvements.
Click to expand...
I think that depends on the instructor you have. Teaching styles vary so much and what works for one doesn't always work for the next.

My daughter at 13 point blank refused to finish a lesson she started with a very shouty instructor because it upset her to be constantly shouted at. Not just a raised volume to be heard.

But another instructor would say 'think about your hands' or 'lift your hands' once the understanding of the hand position was established.
 
I think a big problem is horses can't cry. If a horse gave a loud yelp every time a rider jabbed it in the mouth or gave it a kick, or tightened a girth with an ulcery horse, or placed a saddle on when the horse had a sore back the sport would likely look very different. The yelp of a dog when you inadvertently step on its tail is an instant cue telling you you've hurt the dog and I don't know anyone personally who does not immediately feel terrible, apologise to their dog and take more care in future. But we don't get that instant feedback from a horse and can therefore convicne ourselves the horse is not being hurt by being pulled on, kicked or hit.
 
I have been in the horse world for more than 60 years and I am shocked by some of the above stories. But one thing is that I have never kept my horses at a livery yard and had to interact with other liveries or yard owners. To start with we rented a field, then bought one and then had land at home.

I have in the past smacked a horse with a whip and even kneed a pony in the ribs when she was trying to kick me - she never did it again. I have heard "you have to got to make them more frightened of you" but I think that was more of a shorthand. But interpretation is often the main thing at fault. I was a traditional Pony Club, hunting upbringing and I have slightly altered my way of doing things but I cannot ever recall seeing anything that I felt needed reporting or further investigations. In my time a Pony Club instructor was dismissed for getting on a small pony to correct it (she was a large lady) and another male instructor was dismissed but I think that was for playing Poker at camp with the boys rather than for anything to do with the horses.

Of course horses don't shout and cry, or at least their communication is more subtle, and many owners don't hear.

But I think there is an element of bullying, which is a very human failing.
 
teapot said:
The new BHS exams are now literally about coaching over teaching, especially at the higher levels, and there has been a shift as a result.

However, the changes to the BHS exams when the new names/process came in in 2018 ish were highly criticised by some more old school fellows who will remain nameless, which fits with my comment above about the industry and its practices being decades behind others.
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There was al (in)famous BHS coach who often left her pupils in tears. Her life story and teaching philosophy in a magazine article was very different. But maybe she changed over the years and took some more coaching courses.
 
Miss_Millie said:
To play devil's advocate, if that horse was a child or woman that got kicked in the stomach when the person was stressed and lost their temper, would we still see it as justifiable? Could you still say that they loved them to death if they were a human who's partner took their anger and frustration out on them by beating them?
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Nowhere in my post did I say it was justifiable. I only said that she didn't perceive what she did as abuse.

As for "Could you still say that they loved them to death if they were a human who's partner took their anger and frustration out on them by beating them?"

Yes, I think you still could. Or maybe you could say they're in love with having someone who returns to them even when they're horrible to them. Or maybe you could say they're in love with having someone to control. If it makes it clearer: I think she thought she loved that horse. And therefore that she didn't do things solely because she wanted to be cruel to the horse.


Miss_Millie said:
I know that everyone has bad days or gets pushed over the edge sometimes, no-one is perfect, but repeatedly kicking a horse in the stomach is quite extreme abuse in my opinion. And yes, I have seen just as bad myself.
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Would prefer if you didn't say "in my opinion" as if I had somehow implied that it's not abuse in my opinion. Again, I'm not denying that it's abuse. I just don't think she herself would have been thinking "I enjoy abusing this horse" when she did it - it was just a means to an end - and therefore I wouldn't have called her a inherently abusive person.
 
Educational Psychology addresses exactly this people have different learning ‘styles’ and you get taught to adapt your instruction to the different students- so it’s not teaching you one way of communicating, but several different ways depending on the students.

It also teaches you that people need to feel safe and then they can learn. Feeling threatened blocks off the ability to acquire new skills.

(Safety, then Enjoyment, then Learning).


dorsetladette said:
I think that depends on the instructor you have. Teaching styles vary so much and what works for one doesn't always work for the next.
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dorsetladette said:
My daughter at 13 point blank refused to finish a lesson she started with a very shouty instructor because it upset her to be constantly shouted at. Not just a raised volume to be heard.
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Ambers Echo said:
If a horse gave a loud yelp every time a rider jabbed it in the mouth or gave it a kick, or tightened a girth with an ulcery horse, or placed a saddle on when the horse had a sore back the sport would likely look very different. The yelp of a dog when you inadvertently step on its tail is an instant cue telling you you've hurt the dog and I don't know anyone personally who does not immediately feel terrible, apologise to their dog and take more care in future. But we don't get that instant feedback from a horse and can therefore convicne ourselves the horse is not being hurt by being pulled on, kicked or hit.
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Nitpicking here but I'm getting tired of people using this example. People will take head-bobbing lame dogs for walks, yank puppies around on their collars, pull upwards on the leash so the dog's breathing is restricted, give them corrections in prong collars, etc and the vast majority of the time the dog will not yelp. All animals naturally hide pain, predator or not. If anything, it's worse with dogs because people assume "if he was in pain, he would yelp".
 
Gloi said:
Anything where there is competition, especially for money or prestige brings out the worst in people.☹️. I've seen it everywhere not just with horses.
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that made me laugh. About 40 years ago a friend at work had a daughter aged about 7. Kid went to the local riding school on a Sat. morning for her lesson.
Then came the riding schools annual gymkhana. These kids were all still on the leading rein. The competition was immense as parents dragged these reluctant ponies with all their might along in their quest to win.
My friend certainly learnt a lesson that day. 🤣 🤣
 
There is abuse that comes to light on farms, circuses, slaughter houses and just about anywhere there are animals I'm sorry to say. And exposure in the horse world is not new at all, but each case is more widely covered these days due to the Internet, instead of a photo and a few paragraphs in some of the dailys.

I recollect rapping, hedgehog skins on poles and horses being kicked in the stomach by high profile equestrians in the 70s and 80s but there were no videos circulating in those days. There was also an awful lot of 2nd/3rd hand word of mouth she/he top equestrian did this or that though.
 
Its about power, usually to make up the gaps in their own personality and knowledge, I just think beating the crap out of 500kg animal is more easily explained to the unknowlegable than doing the same to a human.
I saw a lot as a child, but in retrospect, most of it came out of not knowing any better, now when we know so much, its completely horrific, there can be no excuse.
Once you get to a point in your life where you do not give a FF what other people think, I think its harder for them to try and intimidate you, because that is how it starts, and then they watch what they say and do, or you just say no I do not agree with that and toddle off. I find no a very powerful word, followed by why.
 
stangs said:
Nitpicking here but I'm getting tired of people using this example. People will take head-bobbing lame dogs for walks, yank puppies around on their collars, pull upwards on the leash so the dog's breathing is restricted, give them corrections in prong collars, etc and the vast majority of the time the dog will not yelp. All animals naturally hide pain, predator or not. If anything, it's worse with dogs because people assume "if he was in pain, he would yelp".
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This is true of people too, plenty of people living in pain don’t yelp. Especially true women who get accused of exaggerating/ making it up/ making excuses when they do yelp/ go to the GP.
 
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Orangehorse said:
I have been in the horse world for more than 60 years and I am shocked by some of the above stories. But one thing is that I have never kept my horses at a livery yard and had to interact with other liveries or yard owners. To start with we rented a field, then bought one and then had land at home.

I have in the past smacked a horse with a whip and even kneed a pony in the ribs when she was trying to kick me - she never did it again. I have heard "you have to got to make them more frightened of you" but I think that was more of a shorthand. But interpretation is often the main thing at fault. I was a traditional Pony Club, hunting upbringing and I have slightly altered my way of doing things but I cannot ever recall seeing anything that I felt needed reporting or further investigations. In my time a Pony Club instructor was dismissed for getting on a small pony to correct it (she was a large lady) and another male instructor was dismissed but I think that was for playing Poker at camp with the boys rather than for anything to do with the horses.

Of course horses don't shout and cry, or at least their communication is more subtle, and many owners don't hear.

But I think there is an element of bullying, which is a very human failing.
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I think the key thing is that you have kept your horses at home and been in a hunting culture which is different from the competition culture.

There’s so many good things about being on a competition yard (supportive friendship, riding companions, schooling a variety of different horses, having instruction every day, learning from watching other riders, experience of veterinary issues…) it sometimes comes with the bad.
 
Where I think the horse world differs from a lot of other hobbies / grass roots sports is that low to moderate level abuse is tolerated within the culture.

Using significant force to punish a horse or to make it comply with the rider’s wishes is common, both in how people are taught to handle horses and in how they go on to do it when left to their own devices.

The way people treat each other on yards, in training and as peers in competition is uncommonly unsupportive and antagonistic, in my experience.

The sort of behaviours I see in the horse world would be called out in all the other worlds I engage with. People with those views crop up everywhere, but they seem to find a safer space in the horse world.
 
Orangehorse said:
I have been in the horse world for more than 60 years and I am shocked by some of the above stories. But one thing is that I have never kept my horses at a livery yard and had to interact with other liveries or yard owners. To start with we rented a field, then bought one and then had land at home.

I have in the past smacked a horse with a whip and even kneed a pony in the ribs when she was trying to kick me - she never did it again. I have heard "you have to got to make them more frightened of you" but I think that was more of a shorthand. But interpretation is often the main thing at fault. I was a traditional Pony Club, hunting upbringing and I have slightly altered my way of doing things but I cannot ever recall seeing anything that I felt needed reporting or further investigations. In my time a Pony Club instructor was dismissed for getting on a small pony to correct it (she was a large lady) and another male instructor was dismissed but I think that was for playing Poker at camp with the boys rather than for anything to do with the horses.

Of course horses don't shout and cry, or at least their communication is more subtle, and many owners don't hear.

But I think there is an element of bullying, which is a very human failing.
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I think the key thing is that you have kept your horses at home and been in a hunting culture which is different from the competition culture.

There’s so many good things about being on a competition yard (supportive friendship, riding companions, schooling a variety of different horses, having instruction every day, learning from watching other riders, experience of veterinary issues…) it just sometimes comes with the bad too.
 
JFTDWS said:
The sort of behaviours I see in the horse world would be called out in all the other worlds I engage with. People with those views crop up everywhere, but they seem to find a safer space in the horse world.
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This is so true.

Why do people tolerate behaviour in the horse world that would be called out in all other worlds?
 
WrongLeg said:
The culture around riding instruction I think comes from the Army??? This is how my mother explained the shouting and swearing and threat of the whip.
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There was no army instruction. My young Uncle a studious classicist undergrad at Oxford in 1914, was given a Commission at once (of course), and sent to France where he was put on his captain's horse and told to accompany his band of footsoldiers. The Captain slapped the horse on its behind to get it started.
My maternal grandfather (on the other side) was a horseman. He thought it a joke to put a new officer who hadnt ridden onto a horse and to set off cross country jumping hedges and ditches with the other guy's horse following behind.
 
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