Dog bit me - my fault - then I kicked it - need (much) better strategy

[Sussexbythesea]

This thread is an example of why I would never ask advice on this forum regarding dogs apart from what best tick treatment to use or similar. It’s far more judgmental than any of the horse threads and so many people with a couple of pet dogs are expert trainers it’s amazing.

 

[popcorn1]

I have smacked my dog and horse in the past. It is very rare. However if they do something I deem to be particularly dangerous then yes, they will get a smack.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

I don’t think anything has been deleted apart from your rant where you swore. I didn’t report it in case you’re wondering. I think that is where the bullying remarks are coming from, replies to that. You really didn’t miss out on anything.

I'm sure some nasty person will have reported it to admin. This has happened before on these type of posts.

 

[Tihamandturkey]

I've been reading this thread since it was posted and despite having dogs of my own (after growing up with many waifs and strays who weren't always what you would call suitable family dogs) for 30 years, everything from well bred pups, pity buys and rescues, some of whom were in the last chance corral I still get it wrong on occasion.

In an ideal world we would never react badly to a situation, our dogs would always be under full control, we would never put them in a position where they, we or someone else could get hurt (I failed badly on this this week) by being their advocate but do you know what? We're human, we make mistakes and hopefully, we learn from it. If the OP didn't want to learn from this, they wouldn't have posted the thread...

The only people I judge are those who keep doing what they have always done but are surprised when they get the same result each time!

This 100%

 

[Sandstone1]

This thread is an example of why I would never ask advice on this forum regarding dogs apart from what best tick treatment to use or similar. It’s far more judgmental than any of the horse threads and so many people with a couple of pet dogs are expert trainers it’s amazing.

That may be true in some cases but there are also some knowledgeable people.

 

[Karran]

OP I dont know if you're still reading this thread, but I was recommended this book and it might be of interest to you or to anyone who finds this thread in future searching for same issues...
I've only read the first few pages so far but found it reasonably worthwhile

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mine-Pract...70&hvtargid=pla-333017948825&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

 

[jenniehodges2001]

I know someone who used to puppy walk for a local hunt down South.

They had electronic gates to the yard entrance which opened by the driver pressing a remote control button they kept in their car. The one day as the pups were running free on the yard with the yard owners dog, one of the liveries came through the gate. One of the pupplies ran through the open gate and escaped onto the lane, yet the yard owners dog stood routed to the spot as he knew he wasn't allowed out of the gate!The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip.

Whilst the whip might have hurt the pup at the time, it would certainly have been a lot more hurt had it been hit by a car.The pup always steered clear of the gate after that, it remembered the consequence when it ran onto the lane. Job done. It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss. Hardly psychologically damaged for life! I really don't see how reacting like that is bad for an animal if it potentially saves their lives. The saying 'you have to be cruel to be kind' spring to mind.

 

[Sandstone1]

I know someone who used to puppy walk for a local hunt down South.

They had electronic gates to the yard entrance which opened by the driver pressing a remote control button they kept in their car. The one day as the pups were running free on the yard with the yard owners dog, one of the liveries came through the gate. One of the pupplies ran through the open gate and escaped onto the lane, yet the yard owners dog stood routed to the spot as he knew he wasn't allowed out of the gate!The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip.

Whilst the whip might have hurt the pup at the time, it would certainly have been a lot more hurt had it been hit by a car.The pup always steered clear of the gate after that, it remembered the consequence when it ran onto the lane. Job done. It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss. Hardly psychologically damaged for life! I really don't see how reacting like that is bad for an animal if it potentially saves their lives. The saying 'you have to be cruel to be kind' spring to mind.

Probably easier and kinder just to teach a recall. Violence and physical punishment is just a lazy and pointless way. Its old fashioned and out dated. People will say its the way they have always done it but times move on.
Positive reinforcement is a much better way. We used to send children down the mines and up chimneys but we dont do that any more! I just think some people like to dominate and be cruel. There are better ways.

 

[skinnydipper]

The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip.

If someone did that to another person it would be called assault.

It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss.

Appeasement behaviour.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

You know what would really be interesting, if we put a poll on here? Do you smack/tap your horse or dog to reprimand it? A simple yes or no.

I think you would get around 75% saying yes. I'm not clever enough to know how to create a poll so maybe someone on here would. One vote per person mind.

 

[{97702}]

Or perhaps we could just accept that people have different views on the subject, are entitled to hold and express those views, and move on? I think this has really been discussed at length now, and whilst I wouldn’t dream of suggesting what anyone should or shouldn’t post on the forum I don’t think further posts are adding much value or anything new?

 

[Clodagh]

You know what would really be interesting, if we put a poll on here? Do you smack/tap your horse or dog to reprimand it? A simple yes or no.

I think you would get around 75% saying yes. I'm not clever enough to know how to create a poll so maybe someone on here would. One vote per person mind.

I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.

And if it were an appropriate example, the whip should have been used immediately the pup crossed the boundary, not when it was on its way back!

 

[Cortez]

I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.

Umm, have you ever seen a kennel huntsman or huntsman working with hounds or young entry?

 

[scats]

I know someone who used to puppy walk for a local hunt down South.

They had electronic gates to the yard entrance which opened by the driver pressing a remote control button they kept in their car. The one day as the pups were running free on the yard with the yard owners dog, one of the liveries came through the gate. One of the pupplies ran through the open gate and escaped onto the lane, yet the yard owners dog stood routed to the spot as he knew he wasn't allowed out of the gate!The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip.

Whilst the whip might have hurt the pup at the time, it would certainly have been a lot more hurt had it been hit by a car.The pup always steered clear of the gate after that, it remembered the consequence when it ran onto the lane. Job done. It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss. Hardly psychologically damaged for life! I really don't see how reacting like that is bad for an animal if it potentially saves their lives. The saying 'you have to be cruel to be kind' spring to mind.

Would the pup not associate the punishment with coming back though? How would it know that the punishment was linked to it going through the gate and onto the road, and not for returning?

 

[Clodagh]

Umm, have you ever seen a kennel huntsman or huntsman working with hounds or young entry?

I have yes, my husband used to hunt hounds. I've only been to a few kennels though and not seen every huntsman in every scenario, I can only speak as I find.

 

[palo1]

I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.

I quite agree. Some huntsmen rate their hounds physically but the best very, very, very rarely use a whip with hounds for anything other than getting their attention or directing them. It is a pet hate of mine - both people thinking that hounds are controlled by a whip and those that use a whip for something that training should have achieved.

 

[planete]

I used to help with a pack of basset hounds forty-five years ago and any hound who tried to go off on a scent during exercise got a crack of the hunting whip carried by the person in charge (not me). No idea what goes on now.

 

[palo1]

I used to help with a pack of basset hounds forty-five years ago and any hound who tried to go off on a scent during exercise got a crack of the hunting whip carried by the person in charge (not me). No idea what goes on now.

I might be being pedantic (lol!) but the crack of the whip is for the noise which certainly can startle an errant hound. It is a very useful tool!! I have seen huntsmen hit their hounds with a whip but not every huntsman trains like that. Our current huntsman is pretty furious if anyone touches a hound with a whip tbh but he prefers praise (and biscuits) as training tools...

 

[Clodagh]

I used to help with a pack of basset hounds forty-five years ago and any hound who tried to go off on a scent during exercise got a crack of the hunting whip carried by the person in charge (not me). No idea what goes on now.

But not when they were puppies. When you think huntsmen can control 40 odd large, driven ‘dogs’ without a lead or whistle and most people can’t manage one pet in the park they do have to know what is unacceptable.
Hounds go out on walk to be turned into confident, curious and outgoing people, ready to join the pack and have a career.
Huntsmen rarely hit hounds, they need to be ‘God’ and that is not achieved by cowing them. They crack the whip at them and if they do try to take the pack off on a fun run out on exercise the instigator might well have had a flick.

 

[palo1]

But not when they were puppies. When you think huntsmen can control 40 odd large, driven ‘dogs’ without a lead or whistle and most people can’t manage one pet in the park they do have to know what is unacceptable.
Hounds go out on walk to be turned into confident, curious and outgoing people, ready to join the pack and have a career.
Huntsmen rarely hit hounds, they need to be ‘God’ and that is not achieved by cowing them. They crack the whip at them and if they do try to take the pack off on a fun run out on exercise the instigator might well have had a flick.

This.

 

[Quoth]

Efficacy aside, you’ve got to be fairly callous to take a whip to a puppy.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

Efficacy aside, you’ve got to be fairly callous to take a whip to a puppy.

I'm going to bow out of this post now.... I'm feeling exhausted.

 

[skinnydipper]

Yes he should have let the damn puppy get struck by a car and not made any effort to control it. Point taken about it getting struck when it came back but its much better for one small crack than death..... or so I would have thought.

Clodagh how on earth to you go from "the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip" to "beating a puppy with a whip".

Its not being callous giving it one good crack, what would have been more callous would have been to just not bother or ask it to stand in the naughty corner

Anyway I've had just about enough of this now. We need to get things into context and live in the real world.....

Quoth was being kind, describing it as callous. It was brutal.

Clodagh knows more about dogs, and training dogs, than you will ever know.

You know zilch about training, how to train or the importance of timing.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

Quoth was being kind, describing it as callous. It was brutal.

Clodagh knows more about training dogs than you will ever know.

You know zilch about training, how to train and the importance of timing.

I actually deleted the reply because I can't be bothered with it anymore but i am going to reply to your reply to my deleted post as I am truly fascinated to know how you know I know zilch about training. You actually personally know me do you? Amazing.....

I related a story about what happened. I didn't say that it was the perfect time to crack the dog with the lunge whip as it was coming through the gate, for the simple reason I have never and will never hit my horse if it breaks loose and escapes and I catch it again as it defeats the object. Same with the dog. Again I was relaying a story. I didn't accuse Clodagh of not knowing how to train dogs, I actually quoted her very words!! I did say it didn't do the dog any harm and it did not repeat its behaviour. This I believe wholeheartedly.

So please stop accusing me of things. I find your attitude very strange and your tone extremely sanctimonious and holier than thou.

 

[Clodagh]

jenniehodges, we all love debate, or we wouldn't be on a forum! I'll debate to the cows come home, don't throw your toys out the pram if someone doesn't agree with you.

SD and I rarely agree on anything! We still debate though.

 

[jenniehodges2001]

jenniehodges, we all love debate, or we wouldn't be on a forum! I'll debate to the cows come home, don't throw your toys out the pram if someone doesn't agree with you.

SD and I rarely agree on anything! We still debate though.

I'm certainly not throwing my toys out of my pram, I am saying what I feel about Skinny Dipper. To say someone doesn't know anything about something when they don't even know that person is the most idiotic statement known to mankind and I am still chuckling about how daft a statement that was to make all these days later. And that you know more than me??? How EXACTLY does she know that?? Maybe she would like to share her physic powers and come up with the lottery numbers??

Crackers. Totally.

 

[Sandstone1]

I'm certainly not throwing my toys out of my pram, I am saying what I feel about Skinny Dipper. To say someone doesn't know anything about something when they don't even know that person is the most idiotic statement known to mankind and I am still chuckling about how daft a statement that was to make all these days later. And that you know more than me??? How EXACTLY does she know that?? Maybe she would like to share her physic powers and come up with the lottery numbers??

Crackers. Totally.

Id say that she clearly knows more than you from some of your posts. Not least from quoting Caesar Millan! Anyone that thinks he knows what hes doing instantly shows they dont know what they are on about!