Dog thefts and prevention - Red Dog Spray

[Birker2020]

Our local neighbourhood have a 'Nextdoor' Social page, its like a forum type thing like this. There's been a lot about attempted dog thefts, fortunately not in our particular area but about 8 miles South (44 stolen dogs in two vehicles apprehended by police) and 15 miles North from our area (attempted theft of someone walking dog). Someone put a link to a link to a https://doghorn.uk/ which is a non profit campaign working against dog theft. They advise all sort of tips and ideas in the event of someone trying to take your mutt whilst walking it.

One of the tips was to buy a rape alarm to alert passerby's to an attempted theft and another one was 'Red dog spray' that is a red marker spray that stays on skin and clothes, its a non toxic oil based spray safe for both humans and dogs. The idea is that when someone attempts to take your dog either by grabbing it when it's loose or when they try to tug the lead out of your hand you spray the dog therefore rendering it effective against theft (rather like bank notes that security companys put in briefcases so if they get tugged out of the guards hand a red dye is emitted).

Do you think its a good idea? To be honest I'd rather use pepper spray but as it's illegal to carry in this country that isn't going to happen.

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier that was nearly stolen in Staffordshire bit the thief but the man (and dog) were very shook up by their ordeal afterwards. https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/dog-walker-attacked-thieves-attempt-19868867

 

[Lipglosspukka]

I carry a rape alarm.

Red spray doesn't stop someone stealing your dog to breed from which I assume is where the money is.

 

[Birker2020]

I carry a rape alarm.

Red spray doesn't stop someone stealing your dog to breed from which I assume is where the money is.

No it doesn't but it makes it harder to hide from people. And would help prevent it being sold on Gumtree or the like.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

In theory I think it maybe could work, but in reality knowing myself, I would most likely either A) not get it up in time, or B) end up spraying myself.

 

[Birker2020]

In theory I think it maybe could work, but in reality knowing myself, I would most likely either A) not get it up in time, or B) end up spraying myself.

Yes especially if it were a windy day. I'm still wondering about the pepper spray .....

 

[skinnydipper]

"Q589: Are there any legal self defence products that I can buy?

The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm. These are not expensive and can be bought from most local police stations or supermarkets.

There are other self defence products which claim to be legal (e.g. non toxic sprays), however, until a test case is brought before the court, we cannot confirm their legality or endorse them. If you purchase one you must be aware that if you are stopped by the police and have it in your possession there is always a possibility that you will be arrested and detained until the product, its contents and legality can be verified.

However, accepting there is a lot of concern about street crime, we can try to clarify matters a little by putting forward the following points.

• You must not get a product which is made or adapted to cause a person injury. Possession of such a product in public (and in private in specific circumstances) is against the law.
• There are products which squirt a relatively safe, brightly coloured dye (as opposed to a pepper spray). A properly designed product of this nature, used in the way it is intended, should not be able to cause an injury. However, if injury does occur, this may be assault.
• Any products bought from abroad have a greater chance of being illegal.

The above advice is given in good faith, you must make your own decision and this website cannot be held responsible for the consequences of the possession, use or misuse of any self defence product. See Q85 for information on the use of reasonable force."

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm

• Administering poison or noxious thing with intent to injure, aggrieve or annoy, contrary to s.24 OAPA 1861. R v Veysey[2019] EWCA Crim 1332 provides guidance on charging and on what may amount to a “noxious substance”. Where an issue arises as to whether a substance is a noxious thing for the purpose of section 24 of the 1861 Act, it will be for the judge to rule as a matter of law whether the substance concerned, in the quantity and manner in which it is shown by the evidence to have been administered, could properly be found by the jury to be injurious, hurtful, harmful or unwholesome. If it can be properly so regarded, it will be a matter for the jury whether they are satisfied that it was a noxious thing within that definition. In Veysey’s case, the judge below had been entitled to find that a cupful of human urine, from an unknown source, thrown at the face of a victim was capable of being regarded as noxious. Actual or potential injury / harm is likely to indicate that a substance is noxious but that is not an exhaustive definition and it may extent on the facts to any hurtful or unwholesome substance.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-against-person-incorporating-charging-standard

 

[GSD Woman]

Can you carry one of those lemon shaped containers of lemon juice? It would hurt to get that in the eyes and should stop a thief long enough that you could get away.
I have to admit that the difference in self-protection products between the UK and the USA boggles me at times. I'm not saying arm yourself to the teeth but I can buy pepper spray or Mace if I feel it necessary to protect myself. In my state, as long as someone has one foot in my house or attempting to get that same foot in through a window allows me to use a fire arm or knife to protect myself.

 

[AmyMay]

I recently bought myself a personal alarm, following recommendations on a post I made.

It emits a shrill sound, sprays a non toxic foul smell (I think it’s garlic based going by the smell) and also emits a non toxic ultraviolet spray.

The tagging the dog a colour is a great idea. But for me the important thing is to try and repel any would be attacker - so the priority (for me) would be getting the attacker to back off, rather than spray the dog.

 

[GSD Woman]

Amymay, good idea. At least being the UK you don't have to worry about being shot like Lady Gaga's dog walker. Do you all microchip your dogs? At least you can prove that their your dogs if found.

 

[AmyMay]

Amymay, good idea. At least being the UK you don't have to worry about being shot like Lady Gaga's dog walker. Do you all microchip your dogs? At least you can prove that their your dogs if found.

Yes, all dogs must be microchipped (but of course many aren’t). There have been instances of chips being dug out by thieves though ?

 

[Archangel]

I take a bendy walking stick out with me . Horsey people would say "isn't that a schooling whip?" and I would say... "no, it's a bendy walking stick"

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’m worried about this. Not for myself personally. My dog is an obviously elderly collie so probably not the most likely to be stollen but my daughter has just bought a gorgeous little puppy who she will be walking alone daily.

 

[paddy555]

Can you carry one of those lemon shaped containers of lemon juice? It would hurt to get that in the eyes and should stop a thief long enough that you could get away.

Spraying someone in the face is very disorientating and very frightening to the victim. I know because it happened to me. Some years ago I was walking along a road in the middle of Exeter, lots of people around, we all stopped at a road junction to wait for the lights to change and someone drove past and sprayed me in the face. Obviously there was a great shock factor and then terror as I had my hands over my face not knowing what was in the spray. I think it was only water and I have no idea why they did it, presumably joy riders.

Anyway it makes you grab your face and eyes and you are stuck there terrified to open them. I am sure there a lots of things you could in the spray as well as water. Shampoo makes my eyes water badly but is hardly dangerous. That would give someone with a dog (and a loud alarm) sufficient time to take action of some sort.

Personally if I was walking a vulnerable dog in an area where this was likely to happen I would not give a damn about what was in the spray, legal or not. Nor the harm I caused the attacker. My responsibility would be to myself and my dog. I would worry about the rest later.

 

[Brownmare]

A small can of deodorant is perfectly legal and reasonable to carry on a dog walk and would habe the same effect as pepper spray in the eyes of an attacker. A good strong walking stick (I have a 4ft thumb stick) is also a reasonable and useful thing to carry on a dog walk.

 

[Birker2020]

"Q589: Are there any legal self defence products that I can buy?

The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm. These are not expensive and can be bought from most local police stations or supermarkets.

There are other self defence products which claim to be legal (e.g. non toxic sprays), however, until a test case is brought before the court, we cannot confirm their legality or endorse them. If you purchase one you must be aware that if you are stopped by the police and have it in your possession there is always a possibility that you will be arrested and detained until the product, its contents and legality can be verified.

However, accepting there is a lot of concern about street crime, we can try to clarify matters a little by putting forward the following points.

• You must not get a product which is made or adapted to cause a person injury. Possession of such a product in public (and in private in specific circumstances) is against the law.
• There are products which squirt a relatively safe, brightly coloured dye (as opposed to a pepper spray). A properly designed product of this nature, used in the way it is intended, should not be able to cause an injury. However, if injury does occur, this may be assault.
• Any products bought from abroad have a greater chance of being illegal.

The above advice is given in good faith, you must make your own decision and this website cannot be held responsible for the consequences of the possession, use or misuse of any self defence product. See Q85 for information on the use of reasonable force."

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm

• Administering poison or noxious thing with intent to injure, aggrieve or annoy, contrary to s.24 OAPA 1861. R v Veysey[2019] EWCA Crim 1332 provides guidance on charging and on what may amount to a “noxious substance”. Where an issue arises as to whether a substance is a noxious thing for the purpose of section 24 of the 1861 Act, it will be for the judge to rule as a matter of law whether the substance concerned, in the quantity and manner in which it is shown by the evidence to have been administered, could properly be found by the jury to be injurious, hurtful, harmful or unwholesome. If it can be properly so regarded, it will be a matter for the jury whether they are satisfied that it was a noxious thing within that definition. In Veysey’s case, the judge below had been entitled to find that a cupful of human urine, from an unknown source, thrown at the face of a victim was capable of being regarded as noxious. Actual or potential injury / harm is likely to indicate that a substance is noxious but that is not an exhaustive definition and it may extent on the facts to any hurtful or unwholesome substance.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-against-person-incorporating-charging-standard

I don't think that anyone that stole a dog or attempted to steal a dog would try and do an owner for assault. As Paddy555 says I wouldn't give a damn either.

My 124decibel rape alarm has come. And my mini can of impulse deodrant is in my pocket. ?

 

[scats]

A fellow groomer who I went to school with has just got involved with the dog horn campaign and set up a local group.
Within a few hours, she’d had a message from a lady who had been walking her dog in one of our local country parks yesterday and a man picked her dog up and set off with it. She chased after him and eventually he dropped it and ran.
Absolutely horrifying. I’ve never worried about anything like that with JD (big dog) but now we have 2 little ones aswell, it’s something I’m really aware of.

 

[skinnydipper]

Dogs are stolen from gardens, homes, cars, outside shops, kennels. 11% on walks.

I would be interested to know, from those of you intending to spray the thieves,

a) do you carry the spray in your hand at all times when on your walk, with the cap off in readiness? Asking as someone who successfully used Sprayshield, animal deterrent spray on one occasion but failed on another - it was in the outside pocket of a bag and I was holding a large dog on a lead. (used on a dog not a human).

b) do you think you will be able to disable both thieves with the spray? It seems they often work in pairs.

I don't think that anyone that stole a dog or attempted to steal a dog would try and do an owner for assault.

Always good to know who I can come to for legal advice .

ETA. It might be a little tricky holding a dog on a lead, activating a rape alarm while spraying a dog thief with deodourant.

 

[Odyssey]

Dogs are stolen from gardens, homes, cars, outside shops, kennels. 11% on walks.

I would be interested to know, from those of you intending to spray the thieves,

a) do you carry the spray in your hand at all times when on your walk, with the cap off in readiness? Asking as someone who successfully used Sprayshield, animal deterrent spray on one occasion but failed on another - it was in the outside pocket of a bag and I was holding a large dog on a lead. (used on a dog not a human).

b) do you think you will be able to disable both thieves with the spray? It seems they often work in pairs.




Always good to know who I can come to for legal advice .

ETA. It might be a little tricky holding a dog on a lead, activating a rape alarm while spraying a dog thief with deodourant.

This is what I've been thinking. I've decided that I would probably be best to have both hands free to try to hang onto my dog, but having said that I carry a walking stick, and hope I'd be able to whack their hands hard with it, though they could possibly grab it off me first. I think you'd need to have a spray in your hand all the time while walking; you wouldn't want to be rooting around in a pocket or bag at a time when every second counts, and you need to be fully focused. I think one item would be enough to cope with, I can't imagine that trying to spray a couple of people and activate an alarm while hanging onto your dog would be possible! Also, a spray could potentially be grabbed and used on you, so I've decided against it.

I think that securing the clip on the lead to the collar with a caribiner clip that screws closed is a good idea, as some thieves unclip the lead to walk off with the dog. It nearly happened to my friend a couple of years ago with her elderly greyhound, when dog theft for baiting started in our area. She realised what his intention was, when the hand of a man who was asking about her dog and fussing him, kept going towards the clip on the lead, so she walked off. It makes my blood run cold to think about what almost happened. ? I'm so glad my dog is kept on lead (he's a greyhound, so would probably take off after wildlife), I wouldn't want him any distance away from me now. I feel scared enough with him on lead.

 

[Birker2020]

Dogs are stolen from gardens, homes, cars, outside shops, kennels. 11% on walks.

I would be interested to know, from those of you intending to spray the thieves,

a) do you carry the spray in your hand at all times when on your walk, with the cap off in readiness? Asking as someone who successfully used Sprayshield, animal deterrent spray on one occasion but failed on another - it was in the outside pocket of a bag and I was holding a large dog on a lead. (used on a dog not a human).

b) do you think you will be able to disable both thieves with the spray? It seems they often work in pairs.




Always good to know who I can come to for legal advice .

ETA. It might be a little tricky holding a dog on a lead, activating a rape alarm while spraying a dog thief with deodourant.

The rape alarm is clipped on to your jeans by a key ring and you just pull the cord so its a swift single handed operation. If i could spray my dog i would try, again the spray clips onto your jeans with a carrier.

You can ridicule me all your like. At least i have an action plan. What exactly would you do out of interest? Say "oh excuse me please would you mind handing over my dog now there's a good man'"?

And if you really believe that a thief would object to being sprayed when they have just stolen your dog and will report you for assault, well you are crazier than i thought.

 

[Birker2020]

I’m worried about this. Not for myself personally. My dog is an obviously elderly collie so probably not the most likely to be stollen but my daughter has just bought a gorgeous little puppy who she will be walking alone daily.

Its very worrying

 

[AmyMay]

One thing I do wonder about is what the the reaction of one dog I walk’s reaction to any theft attempt/attack on my person.

He’s a border collie who can be rather sharp, and I’m absolutely ‘his’ person. I have no doubt that he’d attack quite badly anyone that tried to harm me or Daisy. Wonder what position that would put me in legally ?

 

[Birker2020]

Can you carry one of those lemon shaped containers of lemon juice? It would hurt to get that in the eyes and should stop a thief long enough that you could get away.
I have to admit that the difference in self-protection products between the UK and the USA boggles me at times. I'm not saying arm yourself to the teeth but I can buy pepper spray or Mace if I feel it necessary to protect myself. In my state, as long as someone has one foot in my house or attempting to get that same foot in through a window allows me to use a fire arm or knife to protect myself.

Watching PD CAM was a real eye opener for us. How America deals with offenders is incredible, how we deal with them is crazy, we are so soft its stupid.

Whilst watching PD cam I remember seeing a police car chase, on some freeway in Texas. The car they were chasing rolled on the freeway. The driver was under the rolled car having been flung out of the window.

In the UK we would have gone up to him, stuck a drip in his arm, put him in a neck brace, placed him on a spinal board and gently transferred him into the back of an ambulance with accompaning words of comfort.

Over there they grabbed him by the ankles, yanked him out from under the car, pulled his hands behind his back, slammed on handcuffs and threw him in the back of the police car. Way to go ?

Think he got 10 years!

 

[skinnydipper]

The rape alarm is clipped on to your jeans by a key ring and you just pull the cord so its a swift single handed operation. If i could spray my dog i would try, again the spray clips onto your jeans with a carrier.

You can ridicule me all your like. At least i have an action plan. What exactly would you do out of interest? Say "oh excuse me please would you mind handing over my dog now there's a good man'"?

And if you really believe that a thief would object to being sprayed when they have just stolen your dog and will report you for assault, well you are crazier than i thought.

That's a very silly post.

We don't know each other, for which I am thankful, but if you did you would find that how you suggest I would respond is way off the mark.

I have faced violence, taken a punch like a man, and not flinched - have you?

I recently encountered two low life scum on their quad bikes who were churning up the paths in a woodland where I walk my dog. I stood in path with her and refused to move. I then told them how selfish they were for destroying the place and ruining other people's enjoyment - would you?

ETA. Trespassers and burglars can claim for personal injuries - I don't see that dog thieves would be any different. These are the type of people that squeal the loudest.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The UK Police does not get everything right. I would be very wary (understatement of the century) about idolising the US Police though.

 

[Birker2020]

That's a very silly post.

We don't know each other, for which I am thankful, but if you did you would find that how you suggest I would respond is way off the mark.

I have faced violence, taken a punch like a man, and not flinched - have you?

I recently encountered two low life scum on their quad bikes who were churning up the paths in a woodland where I walk my dog. I stood in path with her and refused to move. I then told them how selfish they were for destroying the place and ruining other people's enjoyment - would you?

ETA. Trespassers and burglars can claim for personal injuries - I don't see that dog thieves would be any different. These are the type of people that squeal the loudest.

I have confronted people before yes. I would do so again. But to ridicule me for wanting to protect my dog... i just don't understand why you want to do that. You have ridiculed me before on another post. Whether you spray someone in the eyes with water, body spray or lemon juice it doesn't really matter if your dog is safe surely?

And even if police recognised that in saving my dog i had assaulted someone with spray, I'm sure a jury would look on me favourably in the circumstances especially as I have no prior for anything. That is if it even got to that stage, it would have been thrown out way b4 then for sure. ?

I don't want my lovely girl being used as a bait dog or sold to someone who didn't care for her properly for a small fortune on Gumtree, wondering why i didn't put up a fight for her life or think she was worth making an effort to save.

 

[skinnydipper]

I have confronted people before yes. I would do so again. But to ridicule me for wanting to protect my dog... i just don't understand why you want to do that. You have ridiculed me before on another post. Whether you spray someone in the eyes with water, body spray or lemon juice it doesn't really matter if your dog is safe surely?

And even if police recognised that in saving my dig i had assaulted someone I'm sure a jury would look on me favourably especially as I have no prior for anything. ?

I don't want my lovely girl being used as a bait dog or sold to someone for a small fortune on Gumtree, wondering why i didn't put up a fight for her life or think she was worth making an effort to save.

My first post on the thread was not in reply to your post. I quoted information from the Police and the Crown Prosecution Service - you disagreed with it.

I probably have more experience than you in trying to defend my dogs in a fast moving situation. Dog thieves, like attacking dogs, are unlikely to give you notice of their intention.

I hope you never encounter a dog thief or a dog intent on killing yours, but if you do please let me know how you get on, things don't go according to plan.

 

[Andie02]

We have just recently bought a Brifield BR3 body cam to use whilst out with our dogs which is excellent. It is weatherproof, has very good night vision and audio and has wide angle vision, and will take a decent still photograph. It comes with a chest harness, a shoulder strap and a strong clip and a good battery life. You can also use it in your vehicle as a dash cam if you buy the fitting for the windscreen. We are very pleased with it.

 

[TheresaW]

One thing I do wonder about is what the the reaction of one dog I walk’s reaction to any theft attempt/attack on my person.

He’s a border collie who can be rather sharp, and I’m absolutely ‘his’ person. I have no doubt that he’d attack quite badly anyone that tried to harm me or Daisy. Wonder what position that would put me in legally ?

I’ve thought about this a lot. As I’ve said before, Bo is very lead reactive, so if on a road walk, I can’t see anyone getting close enough to grab him. He’s also very wary of men, and when we are off lead in the woods, he’s fine if ignored, (I do call him back to me when we see people), but should a man come at him, and these thieves do tend to be men from what I’ve read, he would defend himself.

 

[Birker2020]

I hope you never encounter a dog thief or a dog intent on killing yours, but if you do please let me know how you get on, things don't go according to plan.

Will do

 

[skinnydipper]

Dog thieves, like attacking dogs, are unlikely to give you notice of their intention.

Plymouth student in 'terrifying' attack by dog thieves

"I got shoved from behind at first, and got punched in the face once I was on the ground," she said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-55632282