Dog thefts and prevention - Red Dog Spray

[GSD Woman]

Just a note about American police. Too many are abusive of their power. Remember the BLM movement? I would hate to be a black man in the States, especially Texas.

 

[paddy555]

I probably have more experience than you in trying to defend my dogs in a fast moving situation. Dog thieves, like attacking dogs, are unlikely to give you notice of their intention.

.

OK with your experience tell us what to do? dog is say sheltie size, timid, friendly. Owner middle aged female.

 

[paddy555]

You can ridicule me all your like. At least i have an action plan. What exactly would you do out of interest? Say "oh excuse me please would you mind handing over my dog now there's a good man'"?

I think everyone needs an action plan and it will be different depending on the sort of person you are and the sort of dog you have. I would try to walk away to avoid trouble and prepare for battle if I really had to. I would have plenty of notice. My dog is very reactive if anyone is within 100 yards of me. Any closer and he will be extremely reactive.

If that didn't work and they tried to attack me or him that I would have no choice but to go on the attack. No way could I run fast enough and the dog would not run with me. He would attack if someone was close and it would take little encouragement on my part for him to mean it. We would have to deal with the consequences later however if it was a case of me getting hurt or an attacker I would go for the attacker.

It would be a horrible situation to be in and I really feel for people with smaller,, sweeter dogs. Don't know what I would do then.

 

[skinnydipper]

OK with your experience tell us what to do? dog is say sheltie size, timid, friendly. Owner middle aged female.

It was my intention never to engage with you again on the forum but you have clearly misunderstood me so I will endeavour to explain.

Each time one of my dogs has been attacked ( x3 unprovoked attacks and one dog which I managed to repel with the spray) the circumstances have been different. You can have a plan and think you can defend your dogs but it doesn't work like that.

Until you have been in that position all you can do is talk about you think you would do.

 

[paddy555]

It was my intention never to engage with you again on the forum but you have clearly misunderstood me so I will endeavour to explain.

Each time one of my dogs has been attacked ( x3 unprovoked attacks and one dog which I managed to repel with the spray) the circumstances have been different. You can have a plan and think you can defend your dogs but it doesn't work like that.

Until you have been in that position all you can do is talk about you think you would do.

all anyone can do is think what they would do. Better to at least think and have a plan than have no plan at all. Better to discuss your plan with other dog owners and have then pull it to pieces so you can rethink. Bit late to do that when attack/theft is imminent.

I don't understand your comments. I thought this thread was talking about dog theft and possible owner attack in the process. I am not sure if you are talking about your own dogs being attacked by other dogs which is not really relevant here or your dog being snatched and you being attacked.

So to rephrase my question we have a middle aged woman and a smaller, defenceless dog and a dog snatcher. What, based on your experience, would work. What wouldn't.

 

[skinnydipper]

all anyone can do is think what they would do. Better to at least think and have a plan than have no plan at all. Better to discuss your plan with other dog owners and have then pull it to pieces so you can rethink. Bit late to do that when attack/theft is imminent.

I don't understand your comments. I thought this thread was talking about dog theft and possible owner attack in the process. I am not sure if you are talking about your own dogs being attacked by other dogs which is not really relevant here or your dog being snatched and you being attacked.

So to rephrase my question we have a middle aged woman and a smaller, defenceless dog and a dog snatcher. What, based on your experience, would work. What wouldn't.

Have you got nothing better to do?

 

[paddy555]

Have you got nothing better to do?

can I suggest you put me on UI. I think that would help your stress levels.

 

[GSD Woman]

Honestly, I think it is a good idea to have a plan. Every self-defense or martial arts class that I've ever taken has had us practice moves to disable an attacker and/or how to get away. Back in the dark ages when I worked in banking we were trained what to do if we were ever robbed. That actually came in handy when we were robbed. Since we did everything we were supposed to do when a television news anchor made a joke about us on air the FBI agent had him apologize to us on air.

 

[cbmcts]

While I understand everyone's fear about dog theft and to an extent share it it is interesting to see Essex police's statement last week that dog thefts were actually lower in 2020 then the previous year
https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2021/february/dog-thefts-fall-in-essex/

This is despite many, many reports on SM of attempted and actual thefts but they don't appear to have been reported to the police - I can think of at least 10 alleged thefts that are all over facebook just in South Essex but the police numbers and locations don't match up...

In saying that I'm still cautious but I always have been - many years ago I caught a couple of kids trying to lure my terriers away when they were off lead on a walk and had gone around a corner ahead of me (private property, I had permission to be there and have the dogs off lead etc but I didn't realise that a camp had set up on adjoining land). Luckily I had a big dog with me and was able to send him over to 'speak' to them and recalled the terriers fast but I always wonder if I'd been a minute or two further behind them what would have happened? These days I only have a big dog, always on lead and do not allow strangers to touch him as he is likely to jump up and mouth at them - manners are a work in progress! I do think, but would prefer not to find out tbh that mine would defend me if anyone tried to grab him and not be easy to remove as he does try and square up to anyone behaving erratically around me. A friend of mine is a dog walker though and she is making a point of mixing the dogs walked so that she always has at least one big/intimidating looking dog on every walk as a deterrent. Also walking in open areas so that she has a clear view of people approaching and nowhere that dogs can go out of sight even momentarily. Probably a wise precaution at any time to be fair.

 

[skinnydipper]

Police Forces with the biggest increase in cases:

Northumbria
Devon & Cornwall
Leicestershire
Humberside
Suffolk

 

[Birker2020]

Just a note about American police. Too many are abusive of their power. Remember the BLM movement? I would hate to be a black man in the States, especially Texas.

I get what you are saying but I'm just saying this is the typical way they deal with assailants and I think it's the best way. The police over there treat everyone as if they could kill them, as they so easily could. Therefore they don't pussy foot around. If you have ever watched PD Cam you will see for yourself, its very interesting and the sentences are much stricter over there too.

 

[skinnydipper]

...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I get what you are saying but I'm just saying this is the typical way they deal with assailants and I think it's the best way. The police over there treat everyone as if they could kill them, as they so easily could. Therefore they don't pussy foot around. If you have ever watched PD Cam you will see for yourself, its very interesting and the sentences are much stricter over there too.

I'm speechless.

You are so, so wrong. I can remember reading some advice to UK travellers to the US once and it amounted to treating the US police as if they were an occupying army. That is bloody scary... I mean think of Jersey or France and the Nazis crazy. I thought it was a bit OTT, but time and time again it is proven that no, it is exactly accurate. You don't get out of your car fast enough... you are shot and paralysed. You are knelt on and die. Utterly horrific.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm tickled by how many people try explaining American policing and politics to GSD Woman, what with her being actually in America and all that

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I also want to add that having been at Euston Station during a bomb scare when the armed Police were called in. No, I don't want the normal Police here to be armed with guns.

We have enough people die in custody as it is.

 

[CorvusCorax]

And I agree with SD, we all think we know what we're going to do in a certain situation until it happens, freeze, fight or flight and all that.
Even in terms of dog on dog attacks, while I'm a bit more competent than I used to be, it tends to happen so quickly, a lot of the time I just stood there with my mouth flapping up and down.
And most dogs who are 'protective' are underconfident and protective of nothing more than their own space - they will bark or bite if backed into a corner, but given the opportunity, will run.

My dogs are trained in a very contextual way but I've never done 'reAl wOrLd sCenarIos' because I don't consider it fair/it can easily tip a dog into the mindframe that everyone is a potential threat and that isn't safe for a pet dog in a suburban setting in the increasingly litigious society we all live in.
If they protect me if the shit ever hits the fan great, if they don't, that's fine, that's not what I keep my dogs for, they're not robots.
Better than an ill-judged incident which ends in them getting impounded or PTS.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm tickled by how many people try explaining American policing and politics to GSD Woman, what with her being actually in America and all that

I am specifically replying to Birker2020 and I hope that is clear (I think I quoted them to show that).

 

[skinnydipper]

And I agree with SD, we all think we know what we're going to do in a certain situation until it happens, freeze, fight or flight and all that.
Even in terms of dog on dog attacks, while I'm a bit more competent than I used to be, it tends to happen so quickly, a lot of the time I just stood there with my mouth flapping up and down.
And most dogs who are 'protective' are underconfident and protective of nothing more than their own space - they will bark or bite if backed into a corner, but given the opportunity, will run.

I had to delete my post pointing out that I thought she lived in Virginia because I didn't want to be provocative

 

[skinnydipper]

Honestly, I think it is a good idea to have a plan. Every self-defense or martial arts class that I've ever taken has had us practice moves to disable an attacker and/or how to get away. Back in the dark ages when I worked in banking we were trained what to do if we were ever robbed. That actually came in handy when we were robbed. Since we did everything we were supposed to do when a television news anchor made a joke about us on air the FBI agent had him apologize to us on air.

I am not trained in krav maga but would do my best to defend my dog from dog thieves

As I pointed out earlier on the thread, each situation is different, it would be impossible to know how and when thieves would try to take a dog. I will get criticized again for comparing it to defending a dog from attack by another dog but circumstances would never be the same whether it be dog attack or dog theft.

I had one dog attacked by 2 as he was sitting by my side. We were politely waiting by the dog bus for the owner of the other 2 dogs to come off the field with his dogs before getting my other dogs out. His dogs left him and ran off the field, they ran up to my dog, silently, and attacked him. OH and I had to haul the dogs off my dog by grabbing their scruffs as they wore no collars.

Another of my dogs was badly injured when a dog ran across a field and tried to kill my dog, she was off lead and minding her own business. I ran at the dog shouting and brandishing a ball launcher, I would have done whatever it took to get that dog off her. I must have been a fearsome sight because it ran back to its owner.

That is when I started carrying a dog deterrent spray - to try to prevent contact.

I witnessed a BRT x Giant Schnauzer attack another dog and then turn and come for mine. I ran in front of my off leash dogs and sprayed it before it could reach them, which gave the owner chance to retrieve it.

The fourth time I was unable to get to the spray before a dog ran at speed and attacked my on leash dog.

I hope that people can see what I am saying here - one size does not fit all.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh and while dog thefts are awful, if you walk around constantly on the alert/fearful, that stress will pass down to the dog and could make it very unhappy indeed.

 

[GSD Woman]

Skinny Dipper, yes I am in Virginia and I wouldn't be offended by having it pointed out. You are correct that one doesn't know what one would do but I still maintain that having a plan is better than not.
I have friends who are people of color and if I get pulled over as a middle aged white woman I'm in less danger that my friends who are black men. In fact I made a comment on a friend's Face Book page about getting away with murder easier than a black man for jay walking. It surprised the his friends who had never met me that I could admit the truth in the USA about race problems.

 

[paddy555]

Oh and while dog thefts are awful, if you walk around constantly on the alert/fearful, that stress will pass down to the dog and could make it very unhappy indeed.

there is a big difference between being alert and careful of the situation you are in and fearful. So any people, with or without dogs, are ambling along, often on their phones with no idea of the situation around them. Crime is getting worse, we should all be able to wander along half asleep wherever and whenever we wish but we can't. I have ridden past so many where I could just pick up their small dog and keep going. They are sitting targets because they are not alert. The link below is very sad but this person wasn't prepared. I don't think it very wise to take a very steal-able/desirable dog like a pug out in this location at 10pm let alone a young girl who is especially vulnerable and a very easy target. Sad and shouldn't be the case but in the real world sadly it is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-55632282

As for being prepared fight/flight/freeze is not helpful. I think you need some plan that is rehearsed at least so your mind doesn't freeze. You do something. Every situation in theft is different but they are all similar. Are you going to protect your dog? it may not be possible and you may have to let it go as the most sensible course of action. Can you let the dog loose to run off, can it go on a belt lead so you have your hands free in your pockets/ready to grab something. Is the dog going to give you warning or is he going to run up to the thieves and lick them. Are you alert enough to see trouble approaching in the case of theft, someone coming up to pet your dog and have a chat for example.
Those on here seem to be pretty aware of dog theft but in the real world there are so many people just ambling around oblivious to anything. Easy peasy targets.
Someone mentioned martial arts. Just the same. You are prepared.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Fight/flight/freeze are innate responses over which most people have no control and no matter what plan they think they have.

I personally, if I meet someone I know on a walk, want to stop and have a chat with them without my dog turning itself inside out. If a person, especially one with a large/naturally suspicious dog, is constantly eyeing everyone passing by or stopping for an innocent chat as a threat and passing that insecurity down the lead, they are putting their dog in an extremely unfair position and potentially endangering innocent members of the public.
Are people who do martial arts as a hobby generally walking down the street always prepared to karate chop someone? As I imagine that would making walking down the street pretty stressful. Same for a dog.
JMO, I agree there needs to be balance and I appreciate that I say that as a person with dogs who perhaps offer an immediate visual deterrent anyway...but also ones who would get into real trouble with the authorities if they were popping off at anyone and everyone if I was feeling nervous and making them feel unstable/insecure.

 

[Clodagh]

Probably missing many points here but if someone tried to steal my dogs I would try to kill them. I am a hormonal middle aged woman and I can get very angry indeed.
Reasonable force would not be a worry to me, I would intend to hurt them more than they would hurt me.

I had a wild youth!!

 

[Keith_Beef]

I heard on Radio Sheffield this morning a story about a man who was woken from his sleep to find two thieves at his door; they threatened him with a knife and got away with four puppies.

Here's a link.

 

[blackcob]

I have family working in close protection and while I haven't spoken with them specifically about the current dog theft stuff I do often have their voice in my head and it would be saying something like:

- Read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker

- If you're going to arm yourself with something, you'd better know how to use it, as it can and will be taken from you and used against you

- Ultimately do not try to defend yourself; drop whatever it is they want (handbag, wallet, phone) and run. And FGS don't hobble yourself with stupid clothing or shoes before you go out. ? Head towards people, shout and scream and draw attention to yourself but do not expect them to understand what has happened or for them to automatically help you (do the bystander effect mitigation thing - "You, the man in the purple shirt, I've just been assaulted, call 999")

....knowing all of this, I would still go full Clodagh; I don't think I could let go of a dog, would fight tooth and nail and almost certainly come off worse. For which reason I'm not sure why I'm sharing this, LOL. Maybe to say that it's better to spend the worry and effort on training your dogs - to stay close, to respond to you and have a solid recall in all circumstances - and to have good situational awareness but probably not to try and weaponise yourself or go about constantly on high alert.

 

[Clodagh]

I have family working in close protection and while I haven't spoken with them specifically about the current dog theft stuff I do often have their voice in my head and it would be saying something like:

- Read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker

- If you're going to arm yourself with something, you'd better know how to use it, as it can and will be taken from you and used against you

- Ultimately do not try to defend yourself; drop whatever it is they want (handbag, wallet, phone) and run. And FGS don't hobble yourself with stupid clothing or shoes before you go out. ? Head towards people, shout and scream and draw attention to yourself but do not expect them to understand what has happened or for them to automatically help you (do the bystander effect mitigation thing - "You, the man in the purple shirt, I've just been assaulted, call 999")

....knowing all of this, I would still go full Clodagh; I don't think I could let go of a dog, would fight tooth and nail and almost certainly come off worse. For which reason I'm not sure why I'm sharing this, LOL. Maybe to say that it's better to spend the worry and effort on training your dogs - to stay close, to respond to you and have a solid recall in all circumstances - and to have good situational awareness but probably not to try and weaponise yourself or go about constantly on high alert.

The remember it will be used against you (weapon) is very true. I just hope while they were beating me with a slip lead my dogs would run away! I am careful in that my dogs are never out of sight and don't wear a collar. They also are very poorly socialised and either indifferent or actively avoid people approaching them.
I just think the red mist would descend and I'd become some sort of beserker!

 

[cbmcts]

....Maybe to say that it's better to spend the worry and effort on training your dogs - to stay close, to respond to you and have a solid recall in all circumstances - and to have good situational awareness but probably not to try and weaponise yourself or go about constantly on high alert.

I think that this is really the best advice. Just to clarify, I might have a big dog, a guarding breed and have had the same breed for getting on 30 years but I've never relied on a dog to protect me. A deterrent yes but not a weapon And particularly during the last year, I've enjoyed many chats with other dog walkers but I've never been someone who lets other people fuss my dogs as I prefer them to be both people and dog neutral unless told otherwise. The training however is still something that needs work!

 

[Cortez]

I get what you are saying but I'm just saying this is the typical way they deal with assailants and I think it's the best way. The police over there treat everyone as if they could kill them, as they so easily could. Therefore they don't pussy foot around. If you have ever watched PD Cam you will see for yourself, its very interesting and the sentences are much stricter over there too.

Please believe me when I say you do NOT want to have US policing methods used in your country. And I have lived in the US for a considerable length of time, and worked with the police over there.

 

[Moobli]

I agree it is impossible to say how any of us would act in a certain situation unless we have faced it. The same goes for our dogs. There are so many variables that it would be impossible to be prepared for anything that might happen. I also agree to constantly fret would make for an extremely stressful life and could easily lead to an unhappy, fearful dog and/or to the owner living as a hermit, too afraid to leave the house. I do not worry unduly about my dogs being stolen. I live and walk in the back of beyond and own large dogs with a rather fearsome reputation. My dogs are always within my sight (unless the wee shite has chased a hare) and have good recall. They wouldn't go with strangers willingly. I like to think I would fight tooth and nail to stop some barsteward nicking my dogs but who knows. I hope I never have to find out. The working dogs in kennels are more of a concern, but even still I don't lose sleep over it.

Arming yourself is never a good idea, as it was drummed into me years ago that a weapon is very easily taken and used against you. So I will keep my wits about me (as always) but not worry myself unduly about what might or might not happen.