Dr riders wearing protective hats...

Prince33Sp4rkle said:
"Then Courtney, one of my all-time favourite riders and people, had her accident. She was NOT bucked off or reared with or anything like that, her horse simply tripped and fell, and it happened to happen on cement, and she happened to hit her head."

but theres the rub, and im in no way at all saying she is to blame,it was a hideous unfortunate accident-why was she riding (a presumably shod horse)on slippy concrete, without a hat? i dont think you can compare that to the possibility of falling off on a surface and doing the same injury?iv already said i dont ride to and from the arena, on the yard (gravel) or the concrete areas, so for my particular case, iv covered that eventually and taken a step to eradicate the risk,but still people use it as an example.i think a lot of examples are twisted to suit for this particular argument......the horse that drops dead of a heart attack out hunting, the rider that falls off jumping and hits the fence,the horse that trips over on the road etc, not comparable to flatwork on a surface.

absolutely NO disrepect for CKD.
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PS - its your choice and I do understand why you dont wear a hat - they arent very comfortable and they are hot. I am so used to mine that I actually am more comfortable with, but I accept that's just because it is what I am used to. I also get that you dont do it on the road etc and that there are millions of other ways to injure oneself riding. My worst horse accident was a kick in the mouth rather than a fall. That said your last point doesnt really hold water for me and here is why.... Your school, from the pix, has a wooden fence, right? We had one just the same and falling off schooling in the school and hitting that on the way down is what cracked my hat open and gave me concussion for 2 days. Without my hat I would have been in hospital for a while...

Like you I ride dressage, I dont jump and I hardly ever fall off (must be about 5 years since I last hit the deck).
 
On the subject of whether you are likely to fall off or not, the last time I fell off I was sitting on a horse standing still on grass. I'm not quite sure what she did, but she slipped, her hind legs went from under her and she went down behind (grass stains on her hocks and bum) luckily she didn't land on me and she didn't catch me with a hoof as she tried to remain upright. Luckily I was wearing a hat as I gave myself a fair old headache, my hat fits tightly, as does the harness but the impact had forced it down low over my forehead and I had to take it off to right it.

The mare I used to ride as a teenager developed what was thought to be epilepsy in later life and would collapse without warning. The first time this happened she was under saddle and just went down, again the rider was wearing a hat and escaped with relatively minor injuries (a broken ankle if I remember correctly), but that could happen to anyone. I also know of people whose horses have died of a heart attack suddenly under saddle and not during strenuous exercise.

I think that goes to show that anyone, no matter how good a rider or horse can have a nasty fall.

Personally I'm not one for taking every available precaution but I do think that wearing a hat is a sensible and reasonable safety step to take, and there is little or no GOOD reason not to wear one. Modern hats are comfortable, vented, look nice, have no effect on the way you ride and it is virtually unheard of for a skull cap to cause injury or worsen an injury.
 
I always love the hat/no hat debate... why does what some one else chooses to do get strangers so het up- if PS chooses not to wear a hat, why do people, who are strangers care..if she has an accident, it won't be you that has to look after her so why comment?

For the record I do wear a hat to ride, I do,however, wear a beagler for dressage. If I have an accident, at no point will I be asking all the people on the H&H forum to come and care for me, so no need to panic!
 
"PS, out of interest (and no name calling, mud slinging from this side at all), I appreciate that you only ride hatless when doing dressage on a suface and on a horse you trust not to bronc/trip, etc., but if you had a choice, top hat or crash hat in a competition, which would you go for?"

currently wear a GPA or a KEP, as prefer how it looks.
CS IS far less predictable at shows, so if i want to wear a top hat (which i did for one young horse show and the regionals last year) and he is feeling daft, i put my GPA on to warm up and IF he calms down, swap to top hat-i dont go courting an accident.
am hoping as he grows up i wont have to do that, and ill be spitting if by the time i get to GP im no longer allowed to wear my topper!

FB-i mount and dismount in the arena, no riding over concrete/though a barn for me.

i didnt say i could see in to the future.....just that i know my horses.
 
BUT....you are still open to a horse stumbling in the arena, and you coming off and hitting your head on the arena fencing, or a horse's foot....

...and with a top hat or beagler at a show, you get on in the lorry park and walk on concrete etc to get to the warm up...and again from the warm up to the competition arena. All areas where a tumble could happen easily.

Where and when you ride, and how much care or not you take, and whether you are likely to fall off or not, and whether your horse is sane or not etc etc etc are really not good arguments for or against wearing a hat. The truth of the matter is you can fall off and hit your head NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES...so it's a personal choice whether you wear a hat or not, not a cirumstantial decision.
 
charlie76 said:
I always love the hat/no hat debate... why does what some one else chooses to do get strangers so het up- if PS chooses not to wear a hat, why do people, who are strangers care..if she has an accident, it won't be you that has to look after her so why comment?

For the record I do wear a hat to ride, I do,however, wear a beagler for dressage. If I have an accident, at no point will I be asking all the people on the H&H forum to come and care for me, so no need to panic!
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I for one care as i my job do alot of paper work relating to my patients and deal with thier social workers etc and the costs of rehabiltation and care homes etc to the tax payer are huge. In general most kinds of brain injury have very slow recovery rates which will take place over many months. A thousand pounds is a conservative estaimate for the care costs involved.
This comes out of the working persons tax that they pay.
Q
 
PS - in relation to how many 'hatless' cases we see in hospital? my answer would be not many because the vast majority of people DO wear hats and so only tend to come in with minor head injuries/concussion.

others who have more serious head injuries (wether wearing hats or without) will spend weeks or months in more serious cases on a ventilator - many NEVER being able to return to their normal lives / functioning. As someone who deals with these patients on a daily basis I can vouch that it isnt somewhere you want to be. Being an ICU patient on life support does have other risks than the injury you were first admitted with.

and of course the worst scenario which happens a lot more than you or I would like to think (this is severe head injuries in general not just riding accidents) many dont make it to the doors of a&e in the first place - the ambulance goes stright round the back to the mortuary. food for thought?

Personally I hate the whole hatless look. it makes people look silly and im pretty certain half of them think they are something they are not.

On another note - i think the pics of the american riders wearing harnessed hats actually look more attractive thasn top hats. And I'm pretty sure given the new rules it wont be long before soem company makes a competition legal top hat.
 
charlie76 said:
I always love the hat/no hat debate... why does what some one else chooses to do get strangers so het up- if PS chooses not to wear a hat, why do people, who are strangers care..if she has an accident, it won't be you that has to look after her so why comment?

For the record I do wear a hat to ride, I do,however, wear a beagler for dressage. If I have an accident, at no point will I be asking all the people on the H&H forum to come and care for me, so no need to panic!
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As the majority of us are tax payers I think you may just require care paid for by H&H forum members and the rest of the general public. Head injuries are hugely expensive to the NHS, social services, local council etc. The cost of care and treatment for life for someone suffering a catestrophic brain injury will run into millions. That is a cost that we as a nation with a huge defecit could well do without.

We hear plenty of people on here ranting on about fat people or smokers costing the NHS money, well what about the serious injuries which could have been avoided with a simple bit of safety equipment?

I've dealt with cases involving serious injury, and at Court on a case arising from someone thinking they were "too good" to need a simple piece of safety equipment (a roofer who fell through a roof having left his crawl ladders on the van) our Barrister remarkerd "it would have been cheaper all round if he'd died on the spot, and probably better for his family too". He was right, the guy's life was destroyed as was that of his family. Insurers paid out millions as did the NHS, Social Services, the DWP and the local Council.
 
And I imagine the majority of the H&H forums who don't wear hats also pay tax! Sorry, but I still think its amazing how a group of strangers can pounce on one person for doing something that is ulitmatly there choice of doing something they want to do in their own time. There maybe hundreds of people on here that do things just as dangerous (IE using the mobile phone whilst driving, not wearing a seatbelt, texting whilst driving) all of which as just as much of a risk of accident!
 
Aside from the cost to tax payers blah blah blah, is it not quite nice that people DO still care about others, even those they haven't met? Because at the end of the day, people preching about wearing hats isn't for their own benefit, it's because they don't want to see someone else get hurt.

Like I said before, I don't give a fig about you all anyway :p Canter your horses on tarmac, without hats and doing a headstand for all I care ;)
 
Going back to the Courtney King-Dye accident, does anyone actually know exactly what happened? Was it definitely on concrete? The press reports seem to mostly say that she was trying a horse for a client, asked it to move its haunches over and that it got its legs tangled and fell, which makes it sound like it was in a school. I must say I have seen a similar accident where a very placid, reliable horse was doing lateral work, got his legs tangled and fell, though fortunately the rider didn't hit his head and was wearing a hat anyway.
 
caterpillar said:
I wonder what people think about people hunting in beaglers/pateys?

Personally hard hat with harness for me, everytime!
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This is my real bug bear. There are a hardcore bunch of followers with our pack who insist on wearing a Patey including all the masters, hunt staff and one secretary. They claim that a properly fitted Patey will stick to your head and offer protection. Gradually we are seeing more people wearing Charles Owen style velvet caps with PAS015 approval and a flesh leather chin strap. Some of the injuries I have seen on the hunting field where a horse has accidentally caught the jockey with a hoof after a fall convince me that safe riding head wear is the way forward.

I have had two days hunting and worn a safe velvet cap (my best hat) and it was perfectly comfortable, not too hot or sweaty and kept my bonce safe.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
you are entitled to your view, i am entitled to mine, i do not try and force mine upon other people and its those that bully,nag, and thus try and force theirs upon me, that i find to be up their own arse. note that i said some, not all of you (as in pro hat people).some of my very good friends always wear a hat, but they dont try and force it upon me, constatly chide me, or in any way try and impose their views upon me, thus its not an issue between us.
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Just out of interest and I am not preaching at you. When you make your mental risk assessment do you take into account the fact that if a freak accident did happen what the impact of a serious injury or your death could have on those same friends and family that you mention in your posts?
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
..........i dont wear a hat when im damn sure IM not going to fall off.......... "
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I actually enjoy your posts Princess Sparkle, all the matchy matchy and your gorgeous horses, especially Bruce. However, you are an experienced rider, with a lot of good, useful knowledge, which you are kind enough to pass on to other forum members. Nevertheless, one of the things I have learned in my life is that horses are not predictable. I have fallen off when I thought I wouldnt. For example, schooling my 18 year old mr sensible in the arena on Friday night he took great umbridge to a jump filler which had been sitting at the edge of the arena for days, and he had seen countless times before both in the day and under the floodlights. He dived sideways, bronced and bucked several times, unseating me, and throwing me into the middle of the arena, while he bronced back to his stable, which is next to the arena. I was unhurt and I had my hat on. The only thing broken was one of my nail extensions, and that was fixed this morning!

He is completely reliable, bombproof, safe, sane, and apart from a bit of bolshiness on the ground, is the perfect first horse. However, like all horses, he can be unpredictable. I am not the rider you are, I dont bother training that much, dont have lessons any more and slop around like a sack of spuds out hacking. I am a happy hacker and proud of that fact. However, the one thing I do know, is that sometime or other I will fall off again, and I wont be able to predict when it will happen - I wish I did, so please can you tell me your secret.

(Apologies, not getting at you, just wanting to know why).
 
For anyone interested in statistics, you may want to look up:

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/40/7/619.abstract
The abstract does NOT say how many people were wearing hats, but it does say that a large proportion of non-lethal ridden injuries were to the head and the conclusion recommends promoting hat wearing which suggests that the injuries were probably caused to non-hat wearers. (I imagine the full article has full details but I don't have access).

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/abstract/1989/01000/lethal_horse_riding_injuries.5.aspx
This one concludes that lethal injuries are most often to the head and suggests the promotion of hat wearing (again implying that this was not the case at the time of the accident).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2408117
Again the majority of injuries is to the head, but no differentiation on the hat/no hat component.

http://store.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/publications/wmj/issues/wmj_v104n2/Jagodzinski.pdf
Head injury the most likely to lead to hospitalisation or death. The importance of wearing hats to prevent such injury is well established according this article. Earlier study of 2382 young people with head injuries showed that 3/4ths were not wearing a hat (more worrying 30% of injuries in children are the result of a kick to an unmounted child).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2146496/
Only one person out of 150 injured in this study was wearing a hat.
 
Believe it or not PS- thank you for that point of view. :)
It is interesting to see it from your perspective.
I'm not going to have a go at you, just simply state a few reason why I will never be caught on a horse without one. You can choose to "zone out" if you like, makes no odds to me, but I thought I would add another view to the discussion.
Horses ARE unpredictable.
I was riding my mare in the school, with an instructor. She had a new girth cover on, but i had warmed her up in it, and had no reaction. Then suddenly, out of the blue, she took exception to it. This entailed her bolting off, bucking every stride.
I am by no means an amazing rider. In fact, to this day, I dont know how I managed to stay on. What i DO know is that if I had come off, and been thrown into the fence without a hat, I might not still be here.
I had no reason to think she would react like that, she had never done anything like that before, and i was in a school with an instructor.
Another time, my mare bolted. I know for certain that if I had come off at that speed i could be a vegetable without my hat.
Now, you may be thinking my mare is a lunatic, and your horse would never do anything like that, but the reason she acted like that out of the blue was due to pain from navicular.
No one could have spotted it- not until it was too late :( as she showed no signs.
It was totally out of the blue.
My point is, that you dont know exactly whats going on with your horse, and you CANT predict what they will do- no matter how well behaved they are, or how good a rider you are.

An accident on my yard cemented my logic- a liverys horse- who is a lovely mare, that she had had no problems with-got freaked out by ANOTHER horse- bolted with her, and slid straight into a brick wall. they are both extremly lucky to have escaped serious injury- but her hat is totally destroyed.
This accident was not the rider or horses fault- but an unknown factor.
I personally would never risk my head like that.
But each to their own.
 
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in a recent post about booting up horses for excercise PS i noticed you said something along the lines of you boot/bandage up everytime you ride you ride your horse and I quote "why would I not want to protect my horses legs?"

Now this isnt a personal go / dig whatever you want to call it but why then "would you not want to protect your head"? as i say, not having a go im just really really struggling to see the logic behind your thinking, im confused!

unfortunately I know people like these never have there opinions changed unless something bad happens - i sincerely hope this isnt the case here.
 
thanks Booboos for the articles

in 2001 to 2003 there were nearly 103,000 non fatal horse related accidents in the US. that's massive!!! and each year of the study 11500 people suffered traumatic brain injury. that is much more than I thought it would be!!
 
I always wear a hat and after several quite nasty falls when my boy was younger I'm glad I wore it.

I have recently been thinking about a Beagler/Patey hat for competitions and said to my sister (who wears one) that they do make a better picture. However my boy can still be unpredictable and what I proposed to do was warm up in the harnessed hat and compete in the Patey. However on reflection I would like to think that the hat isn't going to sway the judge for a better score (:)) and it's only 5 minutes of wear so I have decided to go for the safer harness version for now.

I do think that in the very near future we won't be allowed to compete without the harness hats and it will be good by to the Top Hat :(
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i...........i dont wear a hat when im damn sure IM not going to fall off, "
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i dont want to make this slanging match worse.. but .. (hehe) .. for example.. riding a bicycle

my brother.. been riding a bike since walking.. we like cycling as a fam :)
he is 15 yrs old
cycling down the road,
to this day, we dont know what happens, were not going fast
bike slips from beneth him,
falls of and fractures his skull..

now talk about pretty sights, but i can tell you, when you are 13 the sight of your brother lying there, blood pouring out of his ears, nose, mouth and head, is not a pretty sight

would i want someone to see me like that ?? NO!

EVEN YOUR OWN HORSE IS UNPREDICTABLE.. THEY CANNOT SPEAK..!!

what happens if a bee flys down and stings him on the bum??

sozzle.. my point made?? :D
 
Sorry if I have missed something but I havent read all the replies.

Can I ask why this is aimed at just dressage riders?

Does every eventer/showjumper always wear a hat?

I understand that a higher percentage of dressage riders compared to showjumpers / eventers dont wear a hat but surely this should be aimed at everyone.

And yes I am a dressage rider:D:p
 
ok,few answers, and im trying not to be personal

"I actually enjoy your posts Princess Sparkle, all the matchy matchy and your gorgeous horses, especially Bruce. However, you are an experienced rider, with a lot of good, useful knowledge, which you are kind enough to pass on to other forum members. Nevertheless, one of the things I have learned in my life is that horses are not predictable. I have fallen off when I thought I wouldnt. For example, schooling my 18 year old mr sensible in the arena on Friday night he took great umbridge to a jump filler which had been sitting at the edge of the arena for days, and he had seen countless times before both in the day and under the floodlights. He dived sideways, bronced and bucked several times, unseating me, and throwing me into the middle of the arena, while he bronced back to his stable, which is next to the arena. I was unhurt and I had my hat on. The only thing broken was one of my nail extensions, and that was fixed this morning!

He is completely reliable, bombproof, safe, sane, and apart from a bit of bolshiness on the ground, is the perfect first horse. However, like all horses, he can be unpredictable. I am not the rider you are, I dont bother training that much, dont have lessons any more and slop around like a sack of spuds out hacking. I am a happy hacker and proud of that fact. However, the one thing I do know, is that sometime or other I will fall off again, and I wont be able to predict when it will happen - I wish I did, so please can you tell me your secret."
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sorry did you miss the part where i said in TEN YEARS Bruce has NEVER bucked, reared,span or bolted.NEVER. Bruce taking violent exception to things is crossed eyebrows and a snort time. he got stung by a wasp,twice,and bless his cottons, grunted and ground to a halt, no kicking, no bucking. have had a car wing mirror clip his ample behind, and all he did was stop rather sharply and grunt.CS has double barrelled him and he doesnt even move. sorry but he sounds far more reliable than your horse.

(iv admittedly only had CS 2 years, but still, even when just backed he has never done a drop shoulder spin, or a spook of any kind, in the school, and if he isnt happy mr idle will quite simply,stop.hacking is another matter and i do always wear a hat and wouldnt dream of not doing so)

can i suggest that if you did still train, and didnt (your words) slop around like a sack of spuds, you may well have stayed on.its MY JOB to be sticky and lightening quick, and id hazard a guess that by riding several other horses a week in addition to mine im rather harder to shift?????i dont mean that nastily, but it makes sense doesnt it?

how many of you have had a horse randomley trip to the point of firing you in to the fence please, whilst on the flat,not jumping?(an otherwise well behaved horse not one looping the loop)

cloudandmatrx-it sounds like your mares reaction to pain/fear, is to bolt. i dont know if i subconciously train my horses this way, or if i buy horses like this-but mine stop.confusion,pain,fear,they both gind to a halt. if i though for one second they were going to bugger off in to the ether with me, id be wearing a hat.

as for leg wraps/hats......how many more suspensory injuries per year are there than hatless related incidents. thousands more id say.

i cant get all those links to open at any sort of speed booboos-does it differentiate between head injuries on the ground, and head injures from riding? again id bet there are far more of the former, but would be willing to be proved wrong.id also like to know what people were doing when the injuries occured because as iv repeatedly said, i think flat work on a surface on a sensible horse,is a negligable risk compared to hunting, XC, team chasing or even riding down the road.
 
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I'm only adding to this post to answer a question, not to influence anyone! :p

how many of you have had a horse randomley trip to the point of firing you in to the fence please, whilst on the flat,not jumping?(an otherwise well behaved horse not one looping the loop)
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I used to be a Student at Hartpury, the huge outdoor arena was maintained beautifully and I rode in their whenever possible.
One day I was warming up for jumping, trotting around the school forwards and balanced, no ruts in our path, nothing, when my horse fell over and fired me into the ground, if we hadn't been turning across the diagonal at the time I would have been fired out of the school (the fence is only small) and onto the hardcore at the side. I was fine apart from being very sore the day after, but I was wearing a Hat and BP (compulsory for jumping there).

My horse had hunted for 7 seasons and never tripped or fell, despite having his legs wrapped in wire once and hunting in some very slippery conditions. So I would trust him 100% to keep his feet in even the worst situatiions, it was just one of those moments where neither of us where paying attention.
He is also the only one I would ever trust enough to get on Sans Hat, I know him inside out, plus he likes to give written notice of bad behaviour 3 weeks in advance! Apart from once or twice I have always ridden him in a hat, but then it's always been a habit for me!

Now I admit I am a nervous rider, dislike riding 'naughty' horses, but get dumped on them fairly often for being so sticky (lanky legs do have a few uses!), so I would hope I could stay on in most situations (watch me fall off tomorrow :rolleyes:), in fact during that year I had ridden everyday at least once and ridden a huge variety of horses from ex 4* eventers to hairy trekking ponies, including several very sharp ponies I would normally avoid like the plague and didn't fall off any of them.
 
yes PS and its MY JOB to try and piece together people who have head injuries from the moment they enter a&e's doors!

if our rules say that advanced riders must wear top hats then so be it. fine. but i dont understand for one minute whilst in training you would not employ safety equipment. with todays modern (and very beautiful hats) I think the argument of 'oh its jsut so uncomfy, I get too hot' is unfounded. My HS1 although not pretty was professionally fitted and you know what? I ride in it for HOURS and it doesnt bother me one jot.

FWIW anything I say wont make a blind bit of difference to what you think but as I said earlier (god forbid) it'll only take a near miss to make you change your mind (and others who do the same, not just getting at you in particlar)

I take hope that the trend of the top dressage riders using proper hats will rub off on those beneath them......

*phew* rant over. Sorry but the silly comments I've read have got me all hot and bothered. Must be my cold getting to me....
 
ArcticFox said:
thanks Booboos for the articles

in 2001 to 2003 there were nearly 103,000 non fatal horse related accidents in the US. that's massive!!! and each year of the study 11500 people suffered traumatic brain injury. that is much more than I thought it would be!!
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It is scary isn't it! The worst one was the one that suggested that the second highest cause of head injuries in children after car accidents was horses!
 
I was recently looking for new hat to match my new navy pikuer jacket and thought really hard about getting a beagler as look lovely, and i just couldnt do it - I ended up with a lovely navy hat with harness and it looks nice and i feel safe. If i ever reach to dizzy heights of dressage where i am allowed to wear top hat - i will enter the arena proudly with my harnessed hat and tails safe in the knowledge I am doing everything i can to protect my brain.
My husband would never forgive me if I endanger myself unessecarily - we run a business together - how could we live if i injure myself!?


Excuse spelling - brain is tired tonight! (another reason to look after it!!!)
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i cant get all those links to open at any sort of speed booboos-does it differentiate between head injuries on the ground, and head injures from riding? again id bet there are far more of the former, but would be willing to be proved wrong.id also like to know what people were doing when the injuries occured because as iv repeatedly said, i think flat work on a surface on a sensible horse,is a negligable risk compared to hunting, XC, team chasing or even riding down the road.
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I have only read the abstracts as I have to pay for the articles and I am a bit skint at the moment, but my general impression is that these studies were not necessarily designed to answer the hat/no hat question as such, apart from the fourth link which shows 3/4s of head injuries in people who were NOT wearing a hat. Some do look at risk factors, which include gender, age, experience of rider, age of horse, whether under instruction at the time, and activity, but seem to conclude that horses are inherently dangerous! One study suggests that more women than men appear to be injured, but there is no comment on the women to men ratio in riding in general and more people injured riding than handling. Another suggests that risk factors for injury are female riders, young horses, lack of instruction and riding outdoors.

Almost all seem to differentiate between riding and handling, but seem to agree that in both cases injury to the head is the most common injury. They seem to report a high number of handling injuries which does raise the question of wearing a hat when handling, but maybe that's a can of worms for another day!!! ;)

There are also quite a few studies on accidents in eventing, which (I think and on a very quick read) tend to conclude that most accidents here are spinal injuries, with a higher number of fatal/grave injuries at the higher levels.

I suppose the problem is that when people have an accident with a hat on, they may well escape injury free because the hat absorbs the shock (this is what happened to me when I was hit over the head by a rearing horse), so all these people would not appear in statistics as they never visit hospitals. On the other hand, having an accident involving one's head without a hat is more likely to lead to injury, a hospital visit and being part of the statistics.
 
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