Draw reins - God has spoken. ;) ;) ;)

dressager said:
I don't think there is any place for them in schooling. Imagine if you had your head strapped down, albeit lightly and just for "safety", you'd still know you were restricted and wouldn't want to use the rest of your body correctly, which would lead to stiffness and pain in your neck and back. Because you were so restricted no one can tell your muscles are aching either. The whole purpose of schooling is to encourage the horse's body to relax, the back to swing and the neck to stretch out and seek the contact, and then the horse is be able to communicate when its muscles are fatigued and needs a rest.

Are so many horses as difficult as people make out and do they really "need" draw reins? Surely the root of the problem is in the horse's management (feed, turnout, health, saddle etc) or in the rider's lack of skill? If tiny Laura B can handle the rather wild Alf without draw reins just by patience and good riding, then shouldn't we at least be aiming for the same thing? And if we can't ride as well as we'd like, then finding someone else to help with the schooling of the horse, for the horse's sake?

I have never yet seen a horse ridden in draw reins that looks correct, soft and swinging to me no matter what anyone says. And then there's even more issues when the draw reins come off, again, which was demonstrated clearly by Klaus at the National Convention. I actually thought the horse had a lameness/stiffness issue until we were told it was schooled in draw reins, so tight was its back and so long it took to relax and seek the contact.

If a horse is trained correctly from day 1 and certain principles are adhered to, then draw reins are never necessary. Sorry to say it is often incorrectly trained horses that "need" them, and that is soley the fault of the rider.
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Ditto this ^^^

I've used draw reins in the past, I worked for an olympic dressage rider and we used draw reins on every horse on the yard. However in the last few years I have had lessons with a classical dressage instructor and have learnt to 'ride properly' and now would never ever use draw reins again!
 
Seahorse said:
Ditto this ^^^

I've used draw reins in the past, I worked for an olympic dressage rider and we used draw reins on every horse on the yard. However in the last few years I have had lessons with a classical dressage instructor and have learnt to 'ride properly' and now would never ever use draw reins again!
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Ditto this and ditto what was dittoed (sp):D

IMO over 99% of riders should never use draw reins, from what i have seen from riding club to international competitions (sj and dressage) the horses are not going correctly, the horses are not working through their back, they are just going with their noses in.
 
I agree they are usually seen as a quick fix.
I used them as a teenager with an ex racehorse initially and thought they were great but I have the opposite view now. My horse was obviously backed using them and they did him no favours at all.
You should not need to force a horses head down that doesn't make it go properly.

I did consider them when my horse went through nappy rearing stage when hacking but have refrained so far as I am trying to get him more forward thinking.

Oh and very well known xc riders do have their horses regularly schooled in them usually every time the staff ride schooling, hacking ect.
 
None of you have swayed me at all with the later posts and no one has actually responded to using these with a horse that needs a lesson taught as opposed to trying to school. I will, when appropriate, use them on any of my horses if it makes them safer. I have never needed to use them on a long term basis and only one needed it as part of his actual training but they have proved enormously helpful at times.
 
Allover said:
Ditto this and ditto what was dittoed (sp):D

IMO over 99% of riders should never use draw reins, from what i have seen from riding club to international competitions (sj and dressage) the horses are not going correctly, the horses are not working through their back, they are just going with their noses in.
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LOL Thank you!!
The one and only time I have used draw reins on my horse I had no 'feel' at all, he just tucked his nose in and was fixed. I hated it and really don't know why anyone would want to ride like that. Once you have felt a horse in true self carriage you don't want to ride any other way :)
 
I ride with my draw reins either on the horse's neck or very, very loose, but *there*. My horse is never fixed, he can come above the vertical if he likes, but they are there, just in case - they are NEVER used to *strap down*. He can work over his back, and does, he is elastic and swinging through his body, they are NOT a hindrance to his way of going ...those that do not use them like that use them incorrectly....period.
 
Agreed, i have to use them on the pointers as i'm a work rider and i do as i'm told, but hate them and wouldn't use them on my own horses.
 
I love it when people who ride the most immensely capable horses in the world tell the rest of us how to train the common or garden ones who aren't born with uphill, elevated paces.

I don't put draw reins on my KWPN because he is naturally round. Anyone who can afford horse with that talented self carriage has no need of draw reins. But I would love to see this man reschool a failed racer who thinks that shorter reins mean" lean and go faster". Or a stuffy necked and obstinate maxi-cob. Or a persistant rearer.

By far the quickest, kindest and safest way to train a failed racer,for example to stop racing and canter rounded instead of upside down is with draw reins. All things have their place. Only last week I saw my friend have a lesson with one of the world's leading trainers (fee £90 a lesson for a block booking) and her mare was in draw reins. He sold her the horse too, and it cost a fortune and is very talented but he felt there was a need for them at that time.

It's the rider that is good or bad, not the tools. So if you feel you need to use draw reins, you are in good company, stop beating yourself up :)
 
cptrayes said:
I love it when people who ride the most immensely capable horses in the world tell the rest of us how to train the common or garden ones who aren't born with uphill, elevated paces.

I don't put draw reins on my KWPN because he is naturally round. Anyone who can afford horse with that talented self carriage has no need of draw reins. But I would love to see this man reschool a failed racer who thinks that shorter reins mean" lean and go faster". Or a stuffy necked and obstinate maxi-cob. Or a persistant rearer.
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First of all, draw reins on a persistent rearer sounds to me like a great shortcut to a shattered pelvis... no thanks I wouldn't put ANYTHING that restricts the front end on a rearer, it's the last thing they need, mentally or physically.

As for your first point, what on earth do draw reins have to do with a horse having, or not having, uphill, elevated paces?
tbh i think the more athletically gifted the horse, the MORE trouble you can get into with it, if it decides to use all that power and athleticism against the rider instead of with the rider. seeing that vid of Anky getting bronc'd off at a demo made the penny drop...

I don't think horses are born with 'talented self-carriage' which will translate to coping brilliantly and easily with a rider. However balanced and brilliant they are without a rider, they still need to learn how to carry themselves with a rider's weight. I don't see how draw reins help accomplish this goal at all.
 
the thing is, I've seen horses schooled in draw reins that then only learn that they can still piss off with you, except they do it with their head on their chest, rather then their head up in the air. So you see, I can't really accept that draw reins are needed for retraining.

To my mind, if a horse has a training issue, then there are better ways than draw reins - like in-hand work to explain to the horse what the bit is for and even the beginings of developing carriage in-hand.... that can be done both effectively and safely, tho admittedly it might take a while and admittedly there may be some cases where use of draw reins will get you off to a quicker start down the retraining path - but will it really be a better quality one?

Now, I'm not for one minute saying that draw reins will always create a horse that learns that it can still piss off with you with its head on its chest, but certainally that is an outcome I have seen.

I've also seen them used to create horses that bend their necks but with no idea about using their hind ends.

Maybe I've only ever seen them used badly..... but then again, the trainers I've worked with have never needed them so that just says to me there are other ways that will get a better quality result long term.

Also, while I've ridden quality warmbloods in the past, I've also ridden TB's and cobs. I actually happen to think that any horse can go correctly with correct schooling.
 
cptrayes said:
By far the quickest, kindest and safest way to train a failed racer,for example to stop racing and canter rounded instead of upside down is with draw reins.

It's the rider that is good or bad, not the tools. So if you feel you need to use draw reins, you are in good company, stop beating yourself up :)
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I think the key word in the first sentence is "quickest", reschooling a horse should not be about how quick it is done it should be about how well it is done. I currently have an ex racer and he was obviously stuck in draw reins to get him to get his head down before i got him (he also had some mega spur marks!!!), so after getting him going forward without tucking his head in and steaming forward i then had to train him that he can canter into the hand off the leg, it took months but i now have a horse who canters on the buckle when we are out (famous last words there:D).

There is no quick fix and if you use these "tools" IMO you are only delaying the inevitable reaction to the cause of the problem you are trying to "quick fix". Corrections should come from the seat and leg not from the mouth.
 
Luci07 said:
None of you have swayed me at all with the later posts and no one has actually responded to using these with a horse that needs a lesson taught as opposed to trying to school. I will, when appropriate, use them on any of my horses if it makes them safer. I have never needed to use them on a long term basis and only one needed it as part of his actual training but they have proved enormously helpful at times.
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Maybe a good lesson to learn would be patience and good horsemanship?
 
Allover said:
I think the key word in the first sentence is "quickest", reschooling a horse should not be about how quick it is done it should be about how well it is done. I currently have an ex racer and he was obviously stuck in draw reins to get him to get his head down before i got him (he also had some mega spur marks!!!), so after getting him going forward without tucking his head in and steaming forward i then had to train him that he can canter into the hand off the leg, it took months but i now have a horse who canters on the buckle when we are out (famous last words there:D).

There is no quick fix and if you use these "tools" IMO you are only delaying the inevitable reaction to the cause of the problem you are trying to "quick fix". Corrections should come from the seat and leg not from the mouth.
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I happen to consider it much fairer to the horse to use the quickest method available to train it to carry itself and me in the most biomechanically effective way.

There are some very sanctimonious people in the horse world these days who seem to think that taking longer over something is always better. Not so. How is it kind to leave a horse floundering to balance a rider 50% heavier than it's used to, in a completely different saddle and seat, on a circle and in a pace which it's never done in its life? If draw reins keep it calm and balanced, why on earth wouldn't you use them?

The rider who had your horse was an idiot if they left spur marks. Why you think that you can extrapolate that idiot to other riders is a mystery and insulting. If you don't have teh skill to use them properly don't use them, but those of us who do, and know where they are useful, will continue to put them to good use at the right time in the right way.

It may be key that you got your racer after someone else had it. You don't seem to realise that many horses off the track, when asked to canter and prevented from jumping into the racing start they have been trained to do, will smack their rider in the face with their head. If that's your idea of fun, you go for it. Myself, I'll have draw reins, but no spurs, on for a week or two.

I wonder just how many people preaching on this thread actually ever ride anything but completely safe and sane horses?
 
Allover said:
Maybe a good lesson to learn would be patience and good horsemanship?
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I wonder how much patience and good horsemanship it takes to train members of the British Dressage team and the Eventing team who won medals at the last WEG? If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me!
 
cptrayes said:
I wonder just how many people preaching on this thread actually ever ride anything but completely safe and sane horses?
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Talking of sanctimonious... ;) ;)

Yes, I do ride horses that aren't safe and sane. I back and ride away mine and other people's, and do some retraining, and I would NEVER put draw reins on a rearer. And I flatter myself that I do know what I'm doing in that area, I've rehabbed quite a few, even as a child at riding school I was one of very few kids put on a couple of ponies who were known to be rearers, because I was trusted to have very soft forward-thinking hands, even in extremis. Any front end restraint on a horse prone to rear is a recipe for disaster, they rear because they have problems going forward fgs!
 
cptrayes said:
I wonder how much patience and good horsemanship it takes to train members of the British Dressage team and the Eventing team who won medals at the last WEG? If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me!
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But those are EXPERT hands! I've seen an article where Mark Todd used draw reins, briefly, on a horse to prevent it from doing a very particular evasion. That doesn't mean that anyone using them is as good as him... the "it's good enough for them it's good enough for me" idea doesn't really transfer, does it?
I mean, I could get in a F1 car and think "it's good enough for Jenson Button, and I drive too, so it's good enough for me" but I doubt I could keep it on the track to save my life (quite literally...) it's all about expert usage.
 
kerilli said:
But those are EXPERT hands! I've seen an article where Mark Todd used draw reins, briefly, on a horse to prevent it from doing a very particular evasion. That doesn't mean that anyone using them is as good as him... the "it's good enough for them it's good enough for me" idea doesn't really transfer, does it?
I mean, I could get in a F1 car and think "it's good enough for Jenson Button, and I drive too, so it's good enough for me" but I doubt I could keep it on the track to save my life (quite literally...) it's all about expert usage.
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I have to agree with this. I have used draw reins on my horse but only twice and both times in the presence of my experienced instrutor to resolve a particular issue. I would never do so without the instructor being there as i am no expert and would not want to do any damage. The instructor supervised and gave detailed instruction. They did what was required of them and they are now back for lunging use only (thanks to great tip on here).

As with most things they have their place and not ruled out full stop but thier use considered only with extreme caution.
 
My point entirely. There are people reading this thread, and I am one though I would not compare myself with a British team rider, who know perfectly well how to use draw reins correctly and at the right time. They are not a tool of the devil, like some people seemed to be suggesting.
 
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cptrayes said:
My point entirely. There are people reading this thread, and I am one though I would not compare myself with a British team rider, who know perfectly well how to use draw reins correctly and at the right time. They are not a tool of the devil, like some people seemed to be suggesting.
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OK, so honest question here - I don't want to pick a fight - but it's always been my understanding and experience of rearers that they are better off being pushed forward rather than pulled down. Hence why I would never think to use draw reins on a rearer. However, if you're saying that draw reins on a rearer would work, and work safely and effectively, can you explain how you would use them on a rearer?
 
kerilli said:
And I'm not allowed to think slightly differently to KB? I agree with him totally in one respect - they aren't for dressage.
However, I personally think there's a big difference between using them for control/safety, and using them for dressage schooling to try to improve the horse's way of going. Maybe I didn't make that distinction quite clear enough.
Judging by the answers on this thread, I'm not alone. ;) ;)
HenryHorn puts it perfectly, saying that
"In the right hands they are fine, the problem is every Tom Dick and Harry uses them mostly incorrectly."
I wish I had an endless supply of 20 year old farm boy apprentices to sit on the nutty ones too... failing which, I'll just have to remain a hypocrite. Happy?
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Well at first you seemed to be sanctifying KB's comments and now you've performed a remarkable backtrack on that idea, and have significantly watered down your opinion on draw reins.

No, in my opinion you didn't quite make the distinction... at all. But never mind, the world keeps turning.

And your last sentance - now that is a world apart from your OP!
 
Ignition said:
Well at first you seemed to be sanctifying KB's comments and now you've performed a remarkable backtrack on that idea, and have significantly watered down your opinion on draw reins.

No, in my opinion you didn't quite make the distinction... at all. But never mind, the world keeps turning.

And your last sentance - now that is a world apart from your OP!
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No, I don't think I have actually, I'm well known for being very anti-draw reins, I can't stand the things, especially in inexpert hands, BUT i hope i'm reasonable enough to see that if it's a matter of safety, some horses might need them, temporarily.
When I wrote the first post I didn't know about his "farm boys" comment.
I'd still rather see a horse with a good patient sticky jockey, farm boy or otherwise, on, than a pair of draw reins!
 
I was offered quite a nice horse on loan recently but one of the reasons I turned it down was because the owner suggested that the only way to get it back into proper work sensibly was to ride it in draw reins. I don't think that this would have been the answer as I do think its a quick fix solution and wouldn't teach it self-carriage, to work from behind etc etc.

However, I don't think they're the devil's creation either. Provided they're used sensibly and tactfully, I'm sure they have their purpose and are a useful training aide. I'm certainly not advocating that they're used to crank heads in day in and day out, but for once in a while and used properly, I don't think people should be villified for using them. I'm sure some riders do more damage with strong bits and rough hands than with draw reins used properly.
 
Kelpie said:
OK, so honest question here - I don't want to pick a fight - but it's always been my understanding and experience of rearers that they are better off being pushed forward rather than pulled down. Hence why I would never think to use draw reins on a rearer. However, if you're saying that draw reins on a rearer would work, and work safely and effectively, can you explain how you would use them on a rearer?
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My mare was a rearer having been ridden between the age of 3 and 5 by the breeders daughter in draw reins everyday. They were showing people and this was almost a religion for them, everything from the ex event stallion (my mares' sire she had been bred to be a 15hand whp) the smaller whps, the show ponies, everything. My mare was bonkers. Also another horse I bought written off at 6 as a bolter had also been ridden for 18 months in draw reins.
 
Kelpie said:
OK, so honest question here - I don't want to pick a fight - but it's always been my understanding and experience of rearers that they are better off being pushed forward rather than pulled down. Hence why I would never think to use draw reins on a rearer. However, if you're saying that draw reins on a rearer would work, and work safely and effectively, can you explain how you would use them on a rearer?
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Well that's the thing. Everyone on here is stuck in the mindset of using them to pull a horse's head down and in. If you think of them instead as a variable martingale to stop it putting its head UP then you can see how useful they would be. Personally I hate martingales. A running martingale is the quickest way to turn a resistant horse's neck upside down that there is. A standing martingale cannot be released quickly if you need to. Draw reins suffer neither of these problems.

Rearing? Well, there are two main types of rearer. One does it as an evasion from going forwards. The other does is when it is wanting to go forward faster than its rider requires. The second type very often start their rear by chucking their head upwards. You can prevent this with the martingale effect of draw reins and then release them as a reward when the horse decides not to rear after all.

To use draw reins you need to be able to use two reins indepently, have hands completely independent of your seat and reactions fast enough to release them if they are going to cause a problem and bring them into use when they are going to solve one.

Spawn of the devil. No. Useful short term tool. Yes. Some guy someone else calls "God" says only lazy people use them? More fool him. Half the top class dressage trainers in the world are laughing at him as we discuss this.
 
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cptrayes said:
I happen to consider it much fairer to the horse to use the quickest method available to train it to carry itself and me in the most biomechanically effective way.

There are some very sanctimonious people in the horse world these days who seem to think that taking longer over something is always better. Not so. How is it kind to leave a horse floundering to balance a rider 50% heavier than it's used to, in a completely different saddle and seat, on a circle and in a pace which it's never done in its life? If draw reins keep it calm and balanced, why on earth wouldn't you use them?

The rider who had your horse was an idiot if they left spur marks. Why you think that you can extrapolate that idiot to other riders is a mystery and insulting. If you don't have teh skill to use them properly don't use them, but those of us who do, and know where they are useful, will continue to put them to good use at the right time in the right way.

It may be key that you got your racer after someone else had it. You don't seem to realise that many horses off the track, when asked to canter and prevented from jumping into the racing start they have been trained to do, will smack their rider in the face with their head. If that's your idea of fun, you go for it. Myself, I'll have draw reins, but no spurs, on for a week or two.

I wonder just how many people preaching on this thread actually ever ride anything but completely safe and sane horses?
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Taking time to do the groundwork to enable the horse to balance itself IMHO is the best way to ensure it can carry a balanced rider, regardless of the riders weight, seat or saddle, once a horse has learnt to carry ITSELF correctly on a circle or straight line then you move on to ridden work.

The rider who had my boy before we got him is an Olympic eventing champion and an incredibly well respected horseman. As usual people who sell horses as a business want to get the horses through the yard as quick as possible otherwise their profits go out the window.

I am also more than aware of the issues faced by horses coming off the track, namely people wanting a quick turn around and not teaching them their basic groundwork before they get on them and turn them into riding horses.

I also dont think anyone is preaching, they are giving opinions on what they have seen and experienced, which often times when using gadgets is people who have no idea as to what the gadget was actually intended for in the first place.

And MAYBE the people "preaching" on here have sane and sensible horses as they dont rush their horses to do too much before they are physically or mentally prepared.
 
Allover said:
And MAYBE the people "preaching" on here have sane and sensible horses as they dont rush their horses to do too much before they are physically or mentally prepared.
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Or maybe they are just closed minded to a useful tool in the right hands.
 
iv never used them- i dont even know how to use them, iv just been having flatwork lessons.. .but im 15 and i know one people around my age just younger cant be bothered with months of lessons and just want a pretty pony so use things like drew reins...
 
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