Draw reins - God has spoken. ;) ;) ;)

kirstyl said:
I disagree with you entirely! And please note, I'm not commenting on the Mark Todds of this world. How can it possibly be the quickest, kindest and safest way to retrain an ex racer using draw reins? How about having the time, patience and ability to reschool your horse correctly so that he learns how to carry himself as a riding horse as opposed to a racehorse. Racehorses do not have the correct muscles to carry themselves in an outline, this has to be developed over a period of time as it would with a young horse being brought on. If you are looking for a quick fix and for your horse to be going in a 'pretty' outline, then sadly draw reins may be your solution.
'good company'? Don't think so, not in this instance.
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It can be the quickest and kindest way to teach a ridden canter transition. You can do all the longreining and lunging (which I detest for the strain it puts on joints but that's a different discussion) to build the corrrect muscle (oh and by the way have you "kindly" tied the horses head to the saddle/girth with side reins during that process?), but sooner or later you have to ask for a canter transition from a horse which is used to carrying a lot less weight, in a different place than you are sitting. Very, very often a failed racer will throw its head in your face when you first try it. Now you may find that a fun idea, but I don't and neither does the horse. It unbalances it and can frighten it. It is much safer, quicker, and kinder to use draw reins for a short time, correctly, than risk you or the horse damage.
 
I'm not getting into the argument for or against draw reins (there are too many factors that complicate things there), but, I do want to drop in a point of information.

Draw reins are most certainly used by the most Classical of classical schools of horsemanship - the Spanish Riding School. They are used on a noseband to teach lateral flexion, not on the bit to teach longitudinal flexion, which is how they are commonly used by the majority of riders today. But they certainly are a "classical" piece of kit. Just sayin'.
 
That's interesting Halfstep, I didn't know that.

What is also interesting is that a post I made earlier seems to have disappeared.

It said that I am bemused that the people on here who seem so dead set against the use of draw reins don't appear to be able to understand the distinction between using them to pull a horse's head down and in, and using them to prevent a resistant horse, properly muscled and ridden kindly, from putting its head up and sticking out its nose.

I also challenged anyone to name me any other piece of kit, infinitely tunable by a rider in the saddle, which will do that job.

Can those of you who are so against the use of draw reins tell me whether you are also against the use of side reins when lunging/longreining? Because if you are not, then your reasoning is completely illogical. One is adjustable by the rider, the other is fixed. Neither should be used by people who don't know what they are doing.
 
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Sorry cptrayes, but that's a distinction which I don't see when 99% of riders are using them. I've seen riders using them WITHOUT true reins. No escape for the horse there, no reward for softening, at best 'learned helplessness'. :( :(
The last time I used a pair (yes, I'm a hypocrite as I said, but I agonised long and hard over using them, including posting on here to ask for advice about whether to or not) for 15 mins at walk and trot, once, (on a young horse who just didn't seem to realise that her neck could bend that way, even after months of patient consistent riding from leg to hand), a sj rider who I teach was here. She came and watched and said "You don't use them the way everyone else does... you have them loose." She had never seen them used that way. :( :(
There is no other piece of kit, only soft tactful forward-thinking hands, effective legs and seat, oodles of patience and time, I guess.
Oh, and I detest martingales too, but have never yet been hit in the face by a horse...
 
What piece of equipment CAN'T be abused by ignorance of it's proper use? Including a snaffle bridle and saddle?

If people don't/won't/can't educate themselves how to use them, they shouldn't be using them.

In the right hands they are a great tool. I think 'God' would agree
 
kerilli said:
Sorry cptrayes, but that's a distinction which I don't see when 99% of riders are using them. .
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We all agree they can be wrongly used. My argument is with the people who have condemned them outright. What would you do - ban them? We may as well ban cars because some people drive them wrongly and kill people.
 
These arguments lead only to dead ends I fear. My take on the matter is, if you can ride like Klaus Balkenhol, or are trained daily by Klaus Balkenhol, then it is very likely that you will never need draw reins.

Few of us are that lucky. I've ridden horses in the past using draw reins, and looking back at them, I wouldn't dream of putting draw reins on these horses if I had them now because my riding has improved. I ride my current horse with them at times, because when schooling especially the flying changes, he can use his neck and weight against me, but most of the time they are on the neck. If I could have constant top class training I guarantee that I wouldn't need them. Perhaps three horses down the line, my skills will have improved, and looking back I will wonder why I ever needed them on this horse. I'm not KB, or Laura B, I'm just a rider trying to produce a horse as best I can and to ride to the best of my ability.
 
cptrayes said:
We all agree they can be wrongly used. My argument is with the people who have condemned them outright. What would you do - ban them? We may as well ban cars because some people drive them wrongly and kill people.
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It's not possible to ban them, but it'd be nice if there was a bit of a stigma about using them incorrectly at least... just for the horses' sakes...
 
kerilli said:
It's not possible to ban them, but it'd be nice if there was a bit of a stigma about using them incorrectly at least... just for the horses' sakes...
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Judging from some of these posts, Kerilli, there is - it just isn't widespread enough!

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest. As a general rule, whilst accepting that there may be the (VERY occassional) situation where they may have some benefit in the right hands) I am anti draw reins. My feeling is that the riders that are strong enough in the seat and sensitive enough in the hand to use them are unlikely to need them! Again, I know there are exceptions, as there are to every generalisation (and some of you may well be amongst them!) but it is an irony that the level of ability required to use them correctly, tactfully and sensitively is the very level which would probably negate their requirement! That is not to say, of course, that some highly qualified and capable riders would not choose to use them anyway.

Quite interesting to hear the points put across by those who specifally mention their use in respect to the retraining of racehorses .... would be interested to hear more comments on this.
 
cptrayes said:
That's interesting Halfstep, I didn't know that.

What is also interesting is that a post I made earlier seems to have disappeared.

It said that I am bemused that the people on here who seem so dead set against the use of draw reins don't appear to be able to understand the distinction between using them to pull a horse's head down and in, and using them to prevent a resistant horse, properly muscled and ridden kindly, from putting its head up and sticking out its nose.

I also challenged anyone to name me any other piece of kit, infinitely tunable by a rider in the saddle, which will do that job.

Can those of you who are so against the use of draw reins tell me whether you are also against the use of side reins when lunging/longreining? Because if you are not, then your reasoning is completely illogical. One is adjustable by the rider, the other is fixed. Neither should be used by people who don't know what they are doing.
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No no no to side reins :D
 
Yes, I don't like side reins either.
fwiw my trainer uses just an inside non-elasticated side rein, at least at first.
Just about the only time I use side reins is walking out in hand with a horse who has been on box rest. not tight, using elasticated ones - it can just help to keep a lid on them and avoid the 'airs above your head' moments...
 
i know a number of riders personally who have ridden for england on a number of occasions and they use draw rains regularly to start the horses coming round properly. they dont always stay in draw rains but i see them being used on the horses daily. i know they arnt lazy as they have 4 or 5 horses a day to ride and they still love it so i dont understand how whats been said can be right
 
If anyone has a video of a horse being worked "correctly" in draw reins I would love to see it please.

I can understand why top classical riders are knowledgable enough to use them, or a top trainer could use them to RE-school a horse, but when every other person claims to use them on a difficult horse at the lower levels it does make one wonder, or certain yards that use them as routine from everything from a 4 year old to a 14 year old.

I thought elasticated side reins were meant to, in a crude way mind, recreate that elastic contact. The pull is not from the bit down to the chest. But I do agree, some horses do still find them restrictive and I only ever put them on mine once he's warmed up and working forwards, otherwise he tends to "hold" his head and neck and not stretch forwards.

I rode a horse the other day which is ridden in a Waterford gag (!) and martingale because she apparantly hits riders in the face. I am not rating my riding skills one bit but she reminded me of my old horse. She was absolutely fine and happy to stretch down, but is ridden by a novice on a day to day basis and I think its a real shame as she would probably be a super horse (in a snaffle!) with another rider.
 
Baggybreeches said:
Would that be to stop them from pulling away from the lunge line? I think it would help to keep them from falling in??
*crawls back under the cover of ignorance*
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I'll join you under the cover of ignorance, but surely it depends which is the good rein and which is the bad rein, as the horse would fall in or out accordingly.:confused: Confused of Lincs

You go try it with Em and let me know how you get on, Bb.;)
 
Allover said:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php


This is a link to a website explaining the whys and wherefors of "gadgets" used in training
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This is a good site but unfortunately not always correct - so discuss its beliefs with your instructor.

Totally agree that draw reins are not a neccesary item of tack - they fast track front outline only, may help to develop top line but do not in any way assist in getting a correct outline.
 
Halfstep said:
These arguments lead only to dead ends I fear. My take on the matter is, if you can ride like Klaus Balkenhol, or are trained daily by Klaus Balkenhol, then it is very likely that you will never need draw reins.

Few of us are that lucky. I've ridden horses in the past using draw reins, and looking back at them, I wouldn't dream of putting draw reins on these horses if I had them now because my riding has improved. I ride my current horse with them at times, because when schooling especially the flying changes, he can use his neck and weight against me, but most of the time they are on the neck. If I could have constant top class training I guarantee that I wouldn't need them. Perhaps three horses down the line, my skills will have improved, and looking back I will wonder why I ever needed them on this horse. I'm not KB, or Laura B, I'm just a rider trying to produce a horse as best I can and to ride to the best of my ability.
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What she said. :)

To be absolutely blunt, I think that's part of the discussion. Almost everyone I know who uses draw reins thinks it's something the HORSE is doing. . . ;) Also, they are an easy way of cancelling out what MIGHT be a valid evasion on the horse's part. There are some very delicate parts to a horse's topline and putting more pressure on it than the horse can bear is going to, eventually, result in something showing the signs - usually hocks, SI or necks.

Which is not to say they aren't a useful piece of kit, it's just that like everything else they have pluses and minuses. I just know when I used them more regularly it was quite often either because I THOUGHT I needed them (but actually didn't if I'd known what else to do) or because I didn't fully understand the situation. Which AGAIN, doesn't mean they don't have a place, just that it makes sense to examine the whole situation. I expect to feel similarly about the situations I might use them in now, five years (or five minutes) down the line.

As to the number of professionals who use them regularly. . . one argument is they ride A LOT of horses, often very fit, sharp ones in hectic circumstance, and the draw reins save wear and tear on THEM. Many are also "assembly lines" and the general consensus is any horse that can't take the party line has no business being there. Time - and effort - is money. Again, not to say yay or nay but it doesn't necessarily extrapolate to the situation of a rider with one or a few horses they know well and which, presumably, are suitable for both the rider and the job.

Draw reins between the legs also seemed to have gained more favour as big moving, "forward" horses have come to dominate competition. Sometimes this is courses for horses, as previously discussed, and a way of keeping things under control and gaining a very specific goal on a very specific type of horse. Sometimes the effects of the job the horses do makes "extra help" a more necessary consideration. Sometimes, quite frankly, it's people overmounted and freaked out, wanting to contain the horse any way they can.

Interestingly, I know a very successful showjumping rider who rarely uses draw reins - something of an anomaly!;) BUT he has a top class "flat rider" as his business partner, who schools all their top horses regularly . . . I don't think it's a coincidence. I have also worked for/ridden with/observed people making horses at the absolutely top end who don't ride regularly in draw reins so it's certainly not essential!

Honestly, I think a lot of the riders who use them could do just as well without. But it's how they've been "raised" and it helps enough times - even just by sparing the back of someone who rides a dozen difficult horses a day - that they are heavily invested in the status quo.

In the great scheme of things that can hurt - or help - they are but one consideration. It's easy to have an intractable opinion on something so black and white but, alas, sometimes life is shades of grey. Which is pretty much what Klaus said - DON'T. . . unless you absolutely need to. ;)
 
Evelyn said:
This is a good site but unfortunately not always correct - so discuss its beliefs with your instructor.

Totally agree that draw reins are not a neccesary item of tack - they fast track front outline only, may help to develop top line but do not in any way assist in getting a correct outline.
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Do you mean the bit about the draw reins is not correct or on the whole website in general :)
 
cptrayes said:
Well that kind of assumes that all horses are born angels wanting to behave themselves and some trainer spoils their intention to behave perfectly doesn't it? I'm afraid that is a long, long way from the truth as anyone who has started horses from scratch will tell you. There are many horses who will rear rather than agree to stop before they reach the front of any ride in company. Some will do it if you attempt, however gently, to slow them down on the way back home from a hack, such is their eagerness to get back to familiar territory ( I do wonder if i am now going to be told by some bunny hugger that you shouldn't hack out a horse who doesn't like leaving home!) Like humans, some are more feisty than others and they don't need a trainer to teach them to behave like maniacs.
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At the risk of sounding like a bunnyhugger, actually, personally I don't think horses are ever "naughty"...... they may be reactive/ insecure/ unsure/ uneducated, etc, etc.... but not naughty. So, no, not born angels in the sense that they hit the ground giving us what we want, but actually the way you've put it, you make it sound like a horse would start rearing for no apparent reason. Well, sorry, but I disagree..... if the horse starts rearing in his "eagerness to get back to familiar territory" then probably he's lacking confidence, so how about addressing that rather than slapping on draw reins? You see that's one of the things so much I hate about draw reins - and may other gadgets, they're used to stop the sympton rather than solve the problem :(

.... and yes, I am used to dealing with youngsters....
 
To be fair, Sustainable Dressage does have a fairly clear agenda. That doesn't mean the information isn't accurate or even that the opinion isn't valid, just that, like everything else in the media, you have to read it with context. The site also doesn't even touch on (nor does this thread, save Halfstep's comment) about the more "traditional" use of running reins, attached at the billet straps. Not saying this use is "good" or "bad" but it has a rather different effect. (Many of the old Germans and Hungarians who populated the Canadian horse industry of my youth, only ever used them this way.)

One thing that does jump out at me from the SD page though, is her comment about people using them because they're "embarrassed" when the horse comes above the hand or otherwise doesn't look the way they want it to look, even for very understandable and transient reasons like loss of strength or lack of balance . . . I hadn't thought of it before but I think there's something to that. I know I used to grit my teeth when my horses did that because I knew it showed a fault in my riding or preparation and tried very hard not to have it happen, even to the point of avoiding the issue or doing things I knew weren't correct but got the job done in the short term. Now I'm not so fussed - it's a moment, it happens, and perhaps it's the best the horse can do or even what *needs* to happen in the moment. Now I know I'll fix it and the problem will pass, hopefully with the best long term repercussions to the horse. I know I didn't have that confidence when I was younger and was much quicker to go to things to make it "better".

By the way . . . all this talk of draw reins, which are leverage aids, and little talk of leverage bits . . . :D ;)
 
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Kelpie, do you think no horse is born inherently less prepared to work with man than another? That no dog is more likely to savage a child than another dog? That no child would ever commit a crime if only it had the right parenting? If that's your rose tinted view of the world I won't attempt to disabuse you, it's a far happier world than the one I live in.
 
cptrayes said:
Kelpie, do you think no horse is born inherently less prepared to work with man than another? That no dog is more likely to savage a child than another dog? That no child would ever commit a crime if only it had the right parenting? If that's your rose tinted view of the world I won't attempt to disabuse you, it's a far happier world than the one I live in.
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you get the odd psychopath, sure, and doubtless some horses with a screw loose - but really I don't think as many as people would have you believe. But then that's my view on the world....... I think I'll keep my rose tinted glasses on and leave this discussion at that :)
 
if anyone would like to come and hack my 4yo that has been stuck in due to the weather without draw reins i will glady tack her up :D
she is trained correctly, in a snaffle and no martingale/gadgets etc with once a week training off an international, however she is exceptionally sharp, clever and athletic, and tests out new gymnastic moves on a daily basis.
there is a time and a place for drawreins.
simple bits of kit such as bits can and are used incorrectly. a bad workman always blames his tools.
but i only have one neck / head / back and i quite like them in working order thanks!
 
madeleine1 said:
i know a number of riders personally who have ridden for england on a number of occasions and they use draw rains regularly to start the horses coming round properly. they dont always stay in draw rains but i see them being used on the horses daily. i know they arnt lazy as they have 4 or 5 horses a day to ride and they still love it so i dont understand how whats been said can be right
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posibly why in international competition we are at best..... average.....and why we still need some german fella to come over to give us some advice...
 
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Baydale said:
Do you mean just one side rein? If so, can you explain the reasoning behind that please, K?
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Yes, just 1 leather side rein, on the inside only.
I asked, and iirc the reasoning was (and this is incomplete obv, i'll get more details next time I speak to him):
to show the horse that it can bend to the inside and learn to balance itself that way (without restriction).
to start teaching the horse to look for the inside rein contact.

I think he sticks to using just 1 side rein until these things are accomplished, and then the outside one is put on. He uses them loosely, never tight.
 
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