Draw reins... Who uses them and why?

[millitiger]

Most horses will through their heads in the air because they are unbalanced. They can be unbalanced because they are not supple or not in the correct rhythm, address these issues and they will not through their heads in the air. Putting draw reins on soes not address either of these isssues.

Yes 'most' horses, not all

 

[Rouletterose]

very interesting thread, having read most of the posts I now feel suitably dizzy!

For my two penneth I never use fixed side reins when lunging, all my horses lunge over their backs and reach for the contact, without side reins or anything else.

In ridden work my horses all are taught to reach for the contact, stretch their necks and come into a frame from the back end. I still cannot fathom how using draw reins can achieve this.

If the very experienced riders on here say they need them occasionally for very naughty strong horses to keep their heads/necks in what is deemed to be the correct place in their opinion, to stop getting thrown into orbit, then so be it. i dont ride very strong naughty horses anymore so cannot really comment too much on that.

I am strongly against the use of draw reins and fixed side reins of any sort, I have reschooled a few ex racehorses with no problems and no gadgets. But I do a lot of hacking and groundwork/lunging etc as well, as these horses have never been for sale, time has never been an issue.

I know quite a few good riders that use these items, usually bcause the horse will be for sale and they are against the clock to get their money back and a profit. This is the way of the world now sadly.

 

[cptrayes]

However, I can cure the type of issue mentioned in this thread such as a horse throwing its head up during a canter transition without resorting to draw reins. So long as the horse is at the appropriate level of training and is physically prepared and able.

And you refuse to accept that there is any other reason for a horse throwing its head around than lack of physical capability and rider error.

No, I completely and utterly believe that you and Cptrayes use draw reins correctly, though when CPtrays said she used them to put a horse in hyperflexion, I hardly think they were hanging loose!

Would I have bothered telling people what I had done if it had been my normal way of using them? I mentioned it precisely to illustrate the difference. And I never have them "hanging loose" either, (unless they are clipped to the saddle and out of my hands altogether.) They are set so that the horse brings them into use if he puts his head up or out too far. So yet again you are illustrating that you do not understand how those who use them properly are doing so.

We interpret their behaviour in different ways, that's all. You give them human characteristics and intentions. I do not.

You absolutely refuse to accept that training difficulties can be temperamental in origin. That is not me anthropomorphising Wagtail, that is you showing an incredible lack of experience of horses.

I posted a link to another thread earlier with a picture showing the angle was almost 90 degrees. Obviously it is not if you clip the reins at the sides, but more commonly they are clipped between the horses's front legs.

I nearly always clip between the legs. I can assure you that with my hands at a normal height and the horse of the size and length of neck I ride carrying himself rounded and forward, the angle does not even approach 90 degrees. Don't forget your maths Wagtail, the longer the horse's neck is, the more acute the angle will be.

Yes I completely agree that you do have a different way. Why can't you accept that the behavious such as transition problems can be cured without them?

Because you will not accept that there are any horses that headchuck for reasons of temperament. And in failing to accept that, you cannot see that for those horses, the use of draw reins is often much quicker, and kinder, than using the hands on fixed reins alone.

I do not accept that ALL headchucking problems can be most easily cured by other methods. They may be able to be cured, but I fail to see what is so admirable about taking more effort than needed to do it.

And it does not matter how many times you repeat exactly the same argument over and over and over again, I will not agree with you.

Do you get it yet? I don't agree with you. PLEASE do not try and convince me any more, because I am not going to change my mind because of the sheer number of times you tell me what is your version of the truth, which is that no horse misbehaves in training for any reason other than a physical one.

 

[cptrayes]

The angle is almost 90 degrees.

http://www.millbryhill.co.uk/view_image.html?image_id=10161&product_id=43751

You have pointed to a second picture of a horse not working properly in them Wagtail. Can you not see that the horse is overbent and not reaching his neck forwards into the contact? If he was moving he might look better, and if so the angle of the draw rein would markedly narrow.

As it is, I have measured it with a protrator and the angle between the draw reins is 65, nowhere near 90.

None of us disagree that they are often used wrongly and so far you have pointed to two pictures of horses at halt showing that perfectly.

I can only repeat. On a horse working properly with a neck the length of the size of horse I ride, the angle is around 45 degrees and nowhere near 90

 

[Wagtail]

Before I start, I am not actually trying to change your mind, Cptrayes. I am simply answering your points as you raise them. You have made it perfectly clear that your mind is closed to all other training methods to cure a horse that tosses its head, because you have found an easy peasy way of doing it. Thing is, it is a way that anyone could do it. I am trying to point out that there are other ways. By all means, you carry on, you are obviously happy using this method and it must work well for you. I will however answer your points because there are other people reading who may be interested in the arguments, and enjoy a discussion regarding the training of horses. I don't give two hoots that I will not persuade you so feel free to ignore me.

And you refuse to accept that there is any other reason for a horse throwing its head around than lack of physical capability and rider error.

You misread what I am saying. I am saying that horses are not 'naughty' like children are naughty. There is always a reason behind their behaviour, other than just trying to piss us off.

Would I have bothered telling people what I had done if it had been my normal way of using them? I mentioned it precisely to illustrate the difference. And I never have them "hanging loose" either, (unless they are clipped to the saddle and out of my hands altogether.) They are set so that the horse brings them into use if he puts his head up or out too far. So yet again you are illustrating that you do not understand how those who use them properly are doing so.

By hanging loose, I mean not actually forming a contact with the mouth.

You absolutely refuse to accept that training difficulties can be temperamental in origin. That is not me anthropomorphising Wagtail, that is you showing an incredible lack of experience of horses.

Now you say 'temperamental' before you were insinuating that they were just plain naughty. Temperament is something different entirely. And of course I have no experience what so ever with horses. You are absolutely right Cptrayes. Well done. You got me. You've won the argument.

I nearly always clip between the legs. I can assure you that with my hands at a normal height and the horse of the size and length of neck I ride carrying himself rounded and forward, the angle does not even approach 90 degrees. Don't forget your maths Wagtail, the longer the horse's neck is, the more acute the angle will be.

I think we have done this to death, don't you?

Because you will not accept that there are any horses that headchuck for reasons of temperament. And in failing to accept that, you cannot see that for those horses, the use of draw reins is often much quicker, and kinder, than using the hands on fixed reins alone.

Quicker for you, maybe. Not for me.

I do not accept that ALL headchucking problems can be most easily cured by other methods. They may be able to be cured, but I fail to see what is so admirable about taking more effort than needed to do it.

Because I would have no satisfaction whatsoever if I cured a horse of head chucking by slapping on a pair of draw reins. And I do not find it particularly hard to do it without them.

And it does not matter how many times you repeat exactly the same argument over and over and over again, I will not agree with you.

Do you get it yet? I don't agree with you. PLEASE do not try and convince me any more, because I am not going to change my mind because of the sheer number of times you tell me what is your version of the truth, which is that no horse misbehaves in training for any reason other than a physical one.

Yes, got it the first time. But you keep arguing the points and I will keep responding to the arguments. I enjoy a good debate. Sorry if I have annoyed you. But this thread was long dead before you resurrected it and so I presumed you enjoyed the discussion too.

 

[Wagtail]

You have pointed to a second picture of a horse not working properly in them Wagtail. Can you not see that the horse is overbent and not reaching his neck forwards into the contact? If he was moving he might look better, and if so the angle of the draw rein would markedly narrow.

As it is, I have measured it with a protrator and the angle between the draw reins is 65, nowhere near 90.

None of us disagree that they are often used wrongly and so far you have pointed to two pictures of horses at halt showing that perfectly.

I can only repeat. On a horse working properly with a neck the length of the size of horse I ride, the angle is around 45 degrees and nowhere near 90

The angle will vary, yes. When your horse is chucking its head up the angle will be far greater, no? As it happens, the exact angle is irrelevant. For some reason you have homed in on the number of degrees whilst completely missing the point I was trying to make when I said it. It was in response to you saying that a woman using draw reins was the equivalent of a man doing the same thing without them. To which I replied that they were not the same at all as you were using a force from a completely different direction. Whether it is 90 degrees or thirty makes no difference to that argument.

 

[cptrayes]

Before I start, I am not actually trying to change your mind, Cptrayes. I am simply answering your points as you raise them.

No you are not. You are simply saying the same thing over and over and over again, as if in some vain hope that I will agree with you.

Quicker for you, maybe. Not for me. Because I would have no satisfaction whatsoever if I cured a horse of head chucking by slapping on a pair of draw reins. And I do not find it particularly hard to do it without them.

I still find it completely impossible to understand that you get total satisfaction out of putting a pessoa on a horse to prevent it moving as it wishes yet cannot see how a rider putting draw reins on a horse for exactly the same purpose can be happy about it at all. But please, I have heard all your arguments for this and I do not agree with them so for heavens sake don't repeat them again!

For some reason you have homed in on the number of degrees

I "homed in on it" because you originally quoted it as if it was relevant, and produced another example of what you meant when I challenged you that saying that the angle was 90 degrees showed that you had not seen them properly used.

I agree with you, the exact angle is irrelevant and I have no idea why you brought it up in the first place and then stuck to your guns with another picture until I got a protractor out and proved that you did not know what you were talking about in respect of the angle.

I think we are finally close to agreeing that we disagree. Thank goodness for that

 

[cptrayes]

You have made it perfectly clear that your mind is closed to all other training methods to cure a horse that tosses its head, because you have found an easy peasy way of doing it.

I just love it when someone who fails to win their argument has to finish on accusing the other party of being closed minded. Do you say that to everyone who simply disagrees with you Wagtail? Because one peep in my stable would tell you that you are accusing the wrong person.

 

[cptrayes]

The angle will vary, yes. When your horse is chucking its head up the angle will be far greater, no? .

No, it will be less. The two lines will close as the mouth goes higher in the air. You really haven't seen them in use, it's obvious.

 

[Wagtail]

I just love it when someone who fails to win their argument has to finish on accusing the other party of being closed minded. Do you say that to everyone who simply disagrees with you Wagtail? Because one peep in my stable would tell you that you are accusing the wrong person.

Yet someone who disagrees with the use of draw reins, you say obviously has no experience with horses whatsoever.

I do think you are closed minded because you cannot accept that some people do not need them to cure something such as head tossing. I have accepted that you can do it with them, why can't you accept that I do not need them to acheive the same results?

 

[cptrayes]

Yet someone who disagrees with the use of draw reins, you say obviously has no experience with horses whatsoever.

For someone who prides themselves in arguing Wagtail, you don't half twist things.

It was YOU who said you had no experience whatsoever, I think as a joke?

I said that if you had never met a horse which chucked its head around because it chose to and not because of physical difficulty doing what it was asked to do, which is what you seemed to be saying, then you did not have enough experience with horses.

I do think you are closed minded because you cannot accept that some people do not need them to cure something such as head tossing.

I bow to your superior abilities Wagtail. Clever old you. I say again, you are accusing the wrong person of being closed minded regarding horses and their management.

I have accepted that you can do it with them, why can't you accept that I do not need them to acheive the same results?

Because I don't think you'd last a minute on some of the horses I've ridden in the past I honestly don't think you are talking about the same kind of horses as I am. But if you are, well done, clever you.

You accepting that I can do things with draw reins is a far cry from me accepting that you can achieve the results I can, on the horses I have done it on, as quickly and easily* as I have. You have to have ridden the actual horses which I have ridden before you can tell me categorically that you could have trained them just as easily with your methods, and that is not possible.

You cannot reasonably compare your "acceptance" with my lack of it. It's like you accepting that I can fly in an airplane and asking me to accept that you can fly without one



* pleeeeaaase don't start the one that slower and more difficult is better in some way than quick and easy again, because that's another one I just don't buy.

 

[BeesKnees]

By gadgets I mean things used as schooling aids such as bungees, side reins, draw reins

....but not a Pessoa? that seems rather disingenuous to me. By all means say you don't like draw reins, but to say you don't need to use 'gadgets' when you use a Pessoa seems really hypocritical.

A Pessoa creates parameters for a horse to move within in order to encourage a more rounded, less hollow way of going. As do side reins, draw reins etc etc. I can't see how one is somehow superior to the others?

 

[siennamum]

The difference is that people who use draw reins do so because they are overhorsed and afraid of their horses. Period.

 

[Goldenstar]

The difference is that people who use draw reins do so because they are overhorsed and afraid of their horses. Period.

I was trained to use draw riens when I was younger I can understand there use, I do not often admittedly use them now.
You have ( I think ) never met me so I can tell you with complete confidence I have never ever been afraid of a one of my horses and I am not easily over horsed to make such statements about riders you have never seen and to condem some of the best riders ( which just to be clear i definatly dont include myself in this group !) in the world as over horsed and afraid is frankly one of the funniest things I heard in a long while .period.

 

[siennamum]

I was trained to use draw riens when I was younger I can understand there use, I do not often admittedly use them now.
You have ( I think ) never met me so I can tell you with complete confidence I have never ever been afraid of a one of my horses and I am not easily over horsed to make such statements about riders you have never seen and to condem some of the best riders ( which just to be clear i definatly dont include myself in this group !) in the world as over horsed and afraid is frankly one of the funniest things I heard in a long while .period.

Well I happen to agree with you, but I just thought I would reiterate one of Wagtails arguments from earlier in the post in case she needed some moral support.

 

[Goldenstar]

Well I happen to agree with you, but I just thought I would reiterate one of Wagtails arguments from earlier in the post in case she needed some moral support.

Did I pick up the wrong end of the stick sorry it's been a long day.

 

[siennamum]

Did I pick up the wrong end of the stick sorry it's been a long day.

haha don't worry, not sure why I am still up tbh

 

[millitiger]

Why does it have to get so nasty and bitchy?
Can't this be a debate without getting personal?

Wagtail, I'd be really interested if you could answer the few points from my last post if you want to continue a discussion with someone without the barbed comments

btw, I think there is a clear difference between using draw reins for control and using them as a schooling aid, when imo, there should be very light, fingertip control- the size and power of the horse is irrelevant so I really don't see the point in the 'my horse is much more difficult than your's' or 'you wouldn't last a minute on my horse' argument.

 

[Wagtail]

Why does it have to get so nasty and bitchy?
Can't this be a debate without getting personal?

Wagtail, I'd be really interested if you could answer the few points from my last post if you want to continue a discussion with someone without the barbed comments

btw, I think there is a clear difference between using draw reins for control and using them as a schooling aid, when imo, there should be very light, fingertip control- the size and power of the horse is irrelevant so I really don't see the point in the 'my horse is much more difficult than your's' or 'you wouldn't last a minute on my horse' argument.

Sorry, I was so busy fending off the ridiculous accusations I forgot to get back to you.

Apologies then but previously in this post you have said there is no place for gadgets unless for safety (quote above) so I presumed you never use any gadget for any schooling issue?

Sorry, I was referring to ridden gadgets. However, I do even then see room for some exceptions. For example, I taught my two sons to ride when they were 7 and 5 on my 15.3 hh warmblood. Being boys, they were not that interested and so I didn't want to buy them a pony and then they lose interest. So I put some loose side reins on her just so she couldn't pull them over her head! Worked a treat and both boys learned really well and even progressed to jumping a small course on her. But always with the really loose side reins.

So what about the horse I have used as an example?

The rider (me) was the same before and after the session with the draw reins and as he improved so much after using the draw reins for 10 minutes and, very importantly, KEPT the improvement, is it still rider error?
Was I asking incorrectly before and suddenly started to ask correctly coincidently with using the draw reins? Probably not

No, I quite agree that draw reins CAN be used to break a habit so long as the horse is physically able to perform what is required of it. However, I think people need to be careful here. With draw reins any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions but they may not be physically ready. Horses often throw their heads up due to balance issues or because they are not strong enough to take the weight back onto their hocks. Forcing them to do this before they are physically ready, can cause muscular strains and even ruptures and result in soreness or worse. When training them without such aids, the rider is more able to feel what is going on throughout the horse's body.

 

[Wagtail]

That is not me anthropomorphising Wagtail, that is you showing an incredible lack of experience of horses.

This is just one of the times you said I have a lack of experience of horses. You also stated that I have never ridden fiesty fives and silly six year olds, and that I had obviously never experienced an off the track TB. In fact, your whole defense has hinged on inferring that because I don't accept that many horses are plain naughty, then I don't have the experience.

 

[Wagtail]

....but not a Pessoa? that seems rather disingenuous to me. By all means say you don't like draw reins, but to say you don't need to use 'gadgets' when you use a Pessoa seems really hypocritical.

A Pessoa creates parameters for a horse to move within in order to encourage a more rounded, less hollow way of going. As do side reins, draw reins etc etc. I can't see how one is somehow superior to the others?

I have said this time and time again, but appreciate that in a thread this long things can get lost and people can't be expected to trawl through the whole thread, so I will say it again. I have no problem with gadgets used for lunging to ensure that the horse is working the correct muscles. I do have a problem with gadgets used for riding because then, the rider is in a position to influence the horse far better and more safely for the horse, than through using gadgets.

 

[Goldenstar]

Jumping in side reins !!!! Shakes head and wonders off.

 

[Wagtail]

Because I don't think you'd last a minute on some of the horses I've ridden in the past I honestly don't think you are talking about the same kind of horses as I am. But if you are, well done, clever you.

You accepting that I can do things with draw reins is a far cry from me accepting that you can achieve the results I can, on the horses I have done it on, as quickly and easily* as I have. You have to have ridden the actual horses which I have ridden before you can tell me categorically that you could have trained them just as easily with your methods, and that is not possible.

You cannot reasonably compare your "acceptance" with my lack of it. It's like you accepting that I can fly in an airplane and asking me to accept that you can fly without one

Blimey, Cptrayes, you really do have an incredibly high opinion of your abilities, to state that no one could have done what you have done or ridden the same types of horses as you have without draw reins. Or even to state that I, who you have never met or seen riding cannot do it. Just because you cannot do it does not mean anyone can't do it.

It is absolutely pointless getting into a p*ssing contest about the difficult horses we have both experienced and retrained.

But I do find it concerning that you are so ready to presume that horses are just being difficult because they are naughty. That is a very old fashioned view, and one which thankfully is dying out. There is always a reason why horses behave the way they do, and 99.9% of the time there is a reason. Find that reason and you find the solution.



[/QUOTE]

 

[Wagtail]

Jumping in side reins !!!! Shakes head and wonders off.

So loose that there was no head restriction needed to jump the tiny cross poles.

 

[Wagtail]

The difference is that people who use draw reins do so because they are overhorsed and afraid of their horses. Period.

Showing off your 'wit' I see.

 

[siennamum]

Showing off your 'wit' I see.

No - having fun, yes, bt also reminding you why people have gotten hot under the collar in debates like this. You have quite clearly stated that people who use draw reins do so because they are afraid of their horses and/or overhorsed. It's daft, can't help pointing out how much you are backpeddling sorry.

 

[Goldenstar]

So loose that there was no head restriction needed to jump the tiny cross poles.

So the pony spooks or is startled shots forward meets the jump side on and can't save it's self because it can't furn it head at will very very dangerous.
At horse in a tight spot will stretch its head to the ground to twist and stay on its feet.
Riding in side reins is a big no no the risk of a leg going though the side rein in event of a rider fall is just too great .
That's what daisy riens are for much safer for the child .

 

[millitiger]

What is the definition of gadget and why, in your mind, do BD legal bits not come under gadgets but BD legal tack does?

Sorry wagtail, I meant my last post and the part above in particular...

Draw reins aren't about strength at all for me and I don't try and use them to overpower the horse- it is nothing to do with the size of the horse for me.

And I mentioned this bit in response to you being tempted to put draw reins on a big, spooky horse you have in the yard- imo, that is missing the point of draw reins for schooling and going over into using them for safety.

For me, there is a clear difference between draw reins for safety and draw reins for schooling- the same as any other aid.

I might have to give a horse on the road a really strong pull at a junction if there are cars coming and the horse is intent on carrying on walking.
I would not use the same amount of rein pressure at all in schooling to try and teach the horse anything.
Same aid but being used totally differently, once for safety and a last measure and once for finesse and schooling.

Sorry, I was referring to ridden gadgets. However, I do even then see room for some exceptions. For example, I taught my two sons to ride when they were 7 and 5 on my 15.3 hh warmblood. Being boys, they were not that interested and so I didn't want to buy them a pony and then they lose interest. So I put some loose side reins on her just so she couldn't pull them over her head! Worked a treat and both boys learned really well and even progressed to jumping a small course on her. But always with the really loose side reins.

Is that not a gadget for safety though rather than schooling?
And you are braver than me getting people to jump in side reins, however loose they are!

And what is the difference between side reins when ridden and draw reins when ridden apart from the side reins are static and cannot be released by the rider?
Is your issue with draw reins actually the rider themselves and you don't trust any rider not to know when to release the pressure from the rein? Otherwise I don't see the difference between side reins and draw reins in giving the horse parameters to work in.

This thread is about draw reins. Why draw reins? Because they are a contentious issue. More so than other gadgets. Disliking draw reins does not mean that you have to dislike all other gadgets used on a horse. That is just silly.
Regarding curing all issues with all horses without any gadgets other than a pessoa, then of course I can't.

I'd actually asked about your use of other gadgets in response to the above quote and would still be interested to know what other ridden gadgets you are happy to use (or happy for others to use) and what issues you use them for and how you see that as different to draw reins?

No, I quite agree that draw reins CAN be used to break a habit so long as the horse is physically able to perform what is required of it. However, I think people need to be careful here. With draw reins any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions but they may not be physically ready. Horses often throw their heads up due to balance issues or because they are not strong enough to take the weight back onto their hocks. Forcing them to do this before they are physically ready, can cause muscular strains and even ruptures and result in soreness or worse. When training them without such aids, the rider is more able to feel what is going on throughout the horse's body.

Any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions with 'normal' reins as much as with draw reins if you apply force.

Why do you think draw reins stop the rider being able to feel what is going on throughout the horses body?
Draw reins do not impact on your seat or legs or feel (assuming you use them correctly and I think for this debate to be relevant we should assume they are being used correctly otherwise we could argue a simple snaffle bridle can cause muscle pain and incorrect schooling if used in the wrong way).

 

[Wagtail]

No - having fun, yes, bt also reminding you why people have gotten hot under the collar in debates like this. You have quite clearly stated that people who use draw reins do so because they are afraid of their horses and/or overhorsed. It's daft, can't help pointing out how much you are backpeddling sorry.

Can you quote where I have said people who use them are afraid of their horses? Regarding them being overhorsed, I stand by that statement. In fact I think it is one of the only valid reasons for using them. That and for safety. If I had to resort to using draw reins on any of the horses I trained then I would be over horsed. No shame in that at all. I just wish people could admit it. That is not the same thing as saying that everyone who uses them is over horsed. I have repeatedly told people they can cure problems such as head tossing without them. A horse that is tossing its head is not being over horsed.

 

[Wagtail]

Millitiger, regarding BD legal tack and bits:

I do have a problem with some of it such as flash nosebands, and the fact that curb bits are allowed but yet bitless is not. IME you can get a horse working every bit as correctly in a hackamore or other bitless as with a bit. In fact the conformation of some horse's mouths is such that they will never be 100% comfortabe in a bit. This is why I doslike strapping their mouths shut with flashes.

However, it is perfectly possible to be okay with the use of some gadgets but not others. You are absolutely right in that all tack and bits COULD be considered gadgets and so I should be more specific with my statements, but that would get very long and tedious!