Dressage German based v French based training

[Wheels]

This is a great thread. I am actually at the moment exhausted and buzzing in equal measure after a 2 day clinic with my French classical coach. My horse performed brilliantly and I have seen good improvements in a very short space of time. My horse to me is the best judge of how the training is going, he is forwards, supple, relaxed, well muscled, biomecanically correct in his movements, taking a light contact and totally willing to do anything I ask. I will do a write up later if anyone is interested?

A few months ago when I had only a few lessons with a GP rider and the horse was tense, stiff, alternating between being heavy in my hand and going btv, no bend to speak off, stressy.

Now I'm not saying for one minute that all GP riders train like this but of the several I have gone to over the years this has been the outcome.

I'm very pleased for you MP that you have found someone to train you and your horses in a way that suits you and your horses always look like they are going very well but I hate to say that many competition trainers out there end up with pupils that have very tense and stiff horses.

 

[DabDab]

Would definitely be interested in a write up wheels!

 

[milliepops]

I'm very pleased for you MP that you have found someone to train you and your horses in a way that suits you and your horses always look like they are going very well but I hate to say that many competition trainers out there end up with pupils that have very tense and stiff horses.

for sure. I think it's important for us as riders to assess (as best we can) what our horses produce during their training sessions whether that be the ones we do at home, by ourselves, or out and about with trainers. And decide what is working and what isn't. I spent years paddling along without access to regular training when I had no transport and learnt to experiment and play with things I'd seen elsewhere and read about, I think that kind of independent play gives you the best opportunity to learn when things feel nice or easy and when they feel horrible, cos only the rider can *really* feel that from the horse

 

[tallyho!]

I so hate that word "drive" into a contact. The horse is not anything you can drive. In early years teachers used to say it to me a lot and I must admit I never understood it and watched confused as riders in the same class gyrated in the saddle, kicked with sticky out toes and sawed at the reins. I wasn't there for long... my gyration and sawing were inadequate and my kick wasn't up to scratch either.

These days the word "allow" resonates more with me. Yes I think your body can "allow" impulsion or it can "prevent" impulsion.

Just a thought on riders (like me) that take bits from certain schools that work for them, I wonder how many of those bits come from one school or another? If you could put each bit into two buckets labelled french and german, I wonder which would fill first? My german bucket would fill first. Still I remained quite confused about things even though I did quite quite well competitively. There were still grey areas for me.

Now, having immersed myself in the purely french way of doing things (in for a penny; in for a pound), I can see there's nothing the french school cannot correct in any given situation yet in a more mechanically and intellectually sound way. I've seen all kind of horses and ponies change in front of my very eyes using the exact same tools for a warmblood or for a spaniard - all are equines and move in fixed ways give or take degrees of flexibility and tendencies for evasion. I just wish I had come across it sooner.

 

[milliepops]

Just a thought on riders (like me) that take bits from certain schools that work for them, I wonder how many of those bits come from one school or another? If you could put each bit into two buckets labelled french and german, I wonder which would fill first? .

Interesting question. But one I personally don't think I can answer. I think the answer would be different on each horse, different at the beginning and end of the training session, different at different times of their lives. I find that - my horses at least - are so varied that I don't particularly have an approach that is fixed, it's more about trying to explain to them what I need them to know, strengthening the bits that are weak, training but not over training the bits that are strong and trying to arrive somewhere we are both happy, understanding each other and able to do some things that we couldn't do before.

Typical Kira work, for example, this is a day we did last week. Begins in walk waiting until she is through and letting me in, soft in the contact and adjustable in the tempo, I tend to put in quarter piris in walk to make sure she is waiting and I'm in control of the 4 corners of her without much effort. Next follows a kind of "german" warm up with stretching round/down to the contact in trot or canter and then making sure the "go" leg aid is understood. Next some suppleness bending, neck and body with some sideways. Next to some very small quickening/balance work in trot to develop her sitting and engagement, that usually helps to bring the lightness of the forehand, collection and contact, then some more forward in the same balance, kind of test-type movements, then some more back in canter to look towards piris, then forward again for tempis
All the time she is asked to maintain a balance between being light and even but *there* in the contact, as quickly responsive to the leg and going for herself without being reminded, some is done in hand, some purely ridden..

Which bucket is more full? I honestly don't know. Perhaps you can tell me? I don't think about a school when I'm riding, I try to think what the horse knows/needs/feels like and improve whatever I can. some of that is influenced by training with high school riders, some by "modern dressage", some by general horsemen, I don't think it really matters?
I also don't believe the scales of training to be followed in an order, they interlink so closely that it can't possibly be one then the other then the other though I know some people rigidly believe it's a staircase to be climbed.

The other horse I ride daily does completely different things, be pointless riding her like Kira, she has to *go* first and foremost - and straight !(balance through movement?) and can then learn to be light and in self carriage with it, but she's basically only done 6 months of retraining, the responses are still quite fuzzy so I expect her to end up with a similarly variable routine when she understands more and I don't think it's a problem to mix and match when you are trying to end up with a highly responsive ride

 

[tristar]

oh please update wheels, thanks

 

[daffy44]

Interesting discussion.

I think the majority of people training today are quite magpie like, they have taken bits from different schools as they have ridden and trained more horses, and found a variety of tools for their tool box, I think the trainers that stick rigidly to one school of training or another are in the minority. I think this is often a positive thing, all horses are different, and i dont think one size fits all, the more adaptable the rider and trainer are to the horse in front (or underneath) them, the better.

I think its more important to find a trainer that you really get on with, and can communicate well with, than one that sticks to one particular school or other, I really think that threeway relationship between horse, rider and trainer is paramount.

 

[DabDab]

I couldn't fill the buckets either. I would say that I learnt to ride in an unashamedly British way, in an environment where dressage really wasn't a thing - producing young horses was all about training them to be hunters, jumpers or hacks. And absolutely nobody ever taught me to drive into a contact or any words to that effect. I think I was about 16 before I connected the dots that people connected a horse being on the bit to its head being on the vertical, because it wasn't a concept that I had ever come across. And developing different paces in a horse was all about the utility of that pace, rather than the pace for its own sake, so the feel you develop for a particular pace relates to whether it will allow a horse to perform some end purpose. Still now I struggle with what a collected, working or medium trot is for example - I have to sort of translate what those terms mean. So a working trot for example, is a trot that would be good for jumping a young horse over a log from, whereas a medium trot is for crossing country. A collected canter is for jumping a big upright gate, and a medium canter for a low wide oxer or hedge.

 

[daffy44]

DabDab, I love that, I also didnt come from a dressage background, even though I'm a dressage rider now. I remember finding collecting the canter a strange concept, then my brilliant trainer just asked me to imagine I was going to cross country and about to jump a bounce of biggish oxers, what canter would I want? Instantly collected canter was easy, that made perfect sense to me!

 

[milliepops]

And developing different paces in a horse was all about the utility of that pace, rather than the pace for its own sake,.

after PC my main horsey influence was an amateur whip and event rider who "got through" the dressage to go jumping, trained her connie x's up to BE advanced and was pretty successful with a very similar approach to utility
So what you have written makes a lot of sense to me. I think I do apply the same utility test to the paces now - can we trot a nice 8m volte in this trot? what *should that feel like*. then it is collected. Can we approach a canter piri without the canter changing in quality? then that's really collected. Are we travelling across the school in the same tempo but the sand is passing quicker? then it's extension. I think having a way of measuring things like that takes the abstractness away for a rider who is largely bumbling around on their own without eyes on the ground daily

 

[PapaverFollis]

I do find the language of both schools to be very similar so neither can really be dismissed as good or bad as a training philosophy. But I've had much more practical success applying French school ideas with both a green horse and a horse with which the forwards first, balance later approach had failed miserably. For me it is, as someone said, the give and release that is vital. I got that emphasised to me as a training approach by a French school instructor and not so much by the more German school instruction I received as a kid. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the German approach but that was my experience. I feel that, for me, coming at the problem from a French school angle made all the words that I've had in my head since starting to learn to ride (balance, bend, rhythm, straightness, inside leg, half halt etc etc) just make so much more sense. And riding is easier and less physical than I remember it being... And if I forget my sports bra it isn't a disaster either as sitting trot just isn't as bouncy anymore!! :lol:

While we're all here if anyone can give me any tips on how to make canter not so stupidly exciting that everything else falls out of the window that'd be great! (Not much philosophy or quality horse-rider conversation happening in my arena this morning that's for sure! :lol: )

 

[Wheels]

My clinic report is now up

 

[HufflyPuffly]

PapaverFollis, my youngster found canter THE MOST EXCITING thing ever too . I think the answer is really thinking about why the horse is having hysterics. For Skylla it was lack of balance and strength to hold the canter together, which with her buzzy nature meant she overreacted and it all got silly.

Building her strength and giving her time has seen a huge improvement!

 

[PapaverFollis]

She's really balanced and pretty strong in trot. Good solid shoulder in in walk and trot. Working on travers in walk and trot. Can happily trot 10m circles. Shorten and lengthen trot strides. But yes. I agree in principle and would say the same to someone else so maybe it is a strength issue... She's a big girl it is taking a long time! With my retired mare I had to get to the point of doing half pass in trot before she was strong enough to canter successfully so I'm not dismissing lack of balance as a cause and take more time as a solution. But I kind of feel like she's ready to start trying it too! Which probably isn't very French school. :lol:

She does leg yield but it feels a bit like she shoots sideways to quick so maybe that's telling me something.

This is where I find this approach frustrating... every other ****** can canter their horse without a bother, even though they are on the wrong bend and hollow and stiff! I get this glorious trot that is starting to tick all the boxes and then can't canter for toffee. :lol: and then despite being frustrated I've got to go all Zen in the head to get the really nice work back.

 

[PapaverFollis]

As HHO doesn't let me swear does it? Sorry folks. You get the drift though.

 

[Mule]

She's really balanced and pretty strong in trot. Good solid shoulder in in walk and trot. Working on travers in walk and trot. Can happily trot 10m circles. Shorten and lengthen trot strides. But yes. I agree in principle and would say the same to someone else so maybe it is a strength issue... She's a big girl it is taking a long time! With my retired mare I had to get to the point of doing half pass in trot before she was strong enough to canter successfully so I'm not dismissing lack of balance as a cause and take more time as a solution. But I kind of feel like she's ready to start trying it too! Which probably isn't very French school. :lol:

She does leg yield but it feels a bit like she shoots sideways to quick so maybe that's telling me something.

This is where I find this approach frustrating... every other ****** can canter their horse without a bother, even though they are on the wrong bend and hollow and stiff! I get this glorious trot that is starting to tick all the boxes and then can't canter for toffee. :lol: and then despite being frustrated I've got to go all Zen in the head to get the really nice work back.

That's interesting. Think how all the trot exercises will lead to a lovely canter when she's ready.

I am a fan of focusing on balance before impulsion. I hate a running on the forehand, unbalanced canter, especially when you transition to trot

 

[DabDab]

If they're cantering wonky and hollow and stiff then they are hardly cantering 'without bother' PF And I bet you and beasty can canter just fine across a field...

Oh and yes, you have to be far more inventive with your swearing than that to get round HHO

 

[HufflyPuffly]

As a none philosophy specific person here , if just taking the pee then I'd get a bit firmer and do a lot of transitions, really catching her before she can gain the upper hand, love trot-canter-trot, simple but super effective (especially on a 20m circle so they are always turning) for getting them listening and on the aids.

Skylla also went through the whizzing off sideways too, she had to slow down (even if this made a mare tantrum) so she listened to the aids not just 'guessed' what the end result should be.

 

[Mule]

I haven't encountered the driving in to the hand instructers. I'm glad too, because it sounds exhausting. Obviously it doesn't sound nice for the horse, but it doesn't sound very pleasant for the rider either.

 

[ycbm]

Re driving into the hand, one reason why I have never gone for lessons on a GP schoolmaster is that in every report I've read, the rider says how surprised they were about how strong a contact they were required to have.

The trainer I am giving up with didn't want my cob heavy in the hand, but the way she wanted him pushed up to the bit made him naturally heavy in the hand (being half a Clyde he does not need much of an excuse!) which I then had a devil of a job to prevent, and did by raising my hands (which works best with him) only to be told repeatedly to drop my hands. We all ended up very frustrated!

He is much more fluid (but less consistent) ridden in a Phillippe Karl style. I think the lack of consistency is from a lack of sufficient strength to keep on holding himself together in a frame which is very unnatural for him, exacerbated by weak (ex- locking) stifles.

Interestingly, at the end of a 'German' lesson, his stifles give way through tiredness, whereas I have often ridden for far longer at home in French/Spanish and never had him so tired that his stifles were giving way. I really feel that if I carry on like that, I'll break him .

 

[Wheels]

Have you had lessons from a PK instructor ycbm?

 

[ycbm]

No, I can't find one around here, though I have a new lead, thanks to you. I've read the books and watched some YouTube.

 

[milliepops]

Interesting point about the schoolmasters ycbm. i've only ridden one, though I rode him a few times, sometimes just for a fun time bouncing about in passage and later to learn to ride tempis. I did find it very strong in the hand initially, but I think that was actually partly because at that stage in his life he was a bit of a glorified riding school horse - albeit one that was trained to be very very forward thinking and so the smallest impulse forward generated more power than I was used to... and some of his riders were not riding at the level to actually maintain the correct way of going in between his tune-ups. So I guess things start to unravel - they aren't machines after all.
I whinged during a lesson that he was leaning on my hands and we then worked to get him properly into self carriage and then it changed from being arm-wrenching to just a secure normal contact, quite pleasant and an eyeopener in terms of how it should feel *to me* to have a horse really confident in your hand.
Before being told, I had been too afraid to ride him in the way that I would have ridden my own horses if they were heavy in the contact, because I knew he was a special horse and I didn't want to do it wrong. I wonder how many other people do the same. I know other people do it if I've ever put them on one of my horses to get a feel of something rabbit in headlights kind of thing.

 

[ycbm]

Great point MP. They aren't machines, after all, we do affect them a lot more than we realise at times

 

[Wheels]

No, I can't find one around here, though I have a new lead, thanks to you. I've read the books and watched some YouTube.

There is a lot to be gained by going to spectate at his UK clinics. I have picked up so much over the years, something about a few of the horses resonates and he provides several exercises to counteract particular problems that I then try out when I get home. Sometimes it works, sometimes not lol

 

[Mule]

I had a lesson on an instructors GP horse last year. He definitely wasn't heavy but he really took me forward.

My half halts had to be a lot stronger with him than with my own horse. Perhaps it's because he had so much power and impulsion.

It was a lovely to experience riding a horse so well schooled. I even got to do 4 time changes :biggrin3:It was a revelation just to give an aid for something so advanced and have the horse respond. The horse knew what to do and would do it once I asked correctly.

My own horse and I are both learning together so things can be a struggle for us both. It's like the blind leading the blind at times

 

[tallyho!]

Regarding the buckets...

It would be really interesting to see how you would fill them if you knew which was specifically french or german wouldn't it If you'd asked me 14 years ago I would not have known.

Truth is, in the UK it would be mainly the german one as BHS is loosely based on this and actually the classical riding we know in this country is german based. I must read Sylvia Loch's book again as in there, there is a very good history of the horse in the UK...

Trainers don't specifically go around saying "well, this is a french/german/western/portuguese technique that might help with blah blah...". Most just have techniques under their sleeve that has worked for them and give it to you so things do get "lost" because we don't use the old terms day in day out anymore and we don't speak french or german.

If/when you do come across pure french/german in your personal dressage journey, it's amazing how much suddenly clicks in place like huge "aha!" moments and you never knew what you were doing was specifically this or that...

 

[daffy44]

I think MP is absolutely right about schoolmasters, also by the time these horses become schoolmasters, they are obviously older, its harder work for them, and they are being ridden by less experienced riders, who may well be riding more with their hands than their core/seat, so I think the default is for them to get very heavy in the hand and ask the rider to carry them.

I think its wrong to assume the contact on all GP horses is similar to that on the schoolmasters, I have trained three of my horses to GP so far, one didnt compete, one competes, one has done is first Inter 2, and should make his GP debut in the next couple of months all being well, and I promise, none of them are heavy in my hand. The one competing GP is getting older, and with age she has wanted to get stronger in my hand, but I just have to remember to soften my hand and engage my core, then she stays in a lovely contact.

 

[milliepops]

well on the basis that there is nowt new under the sun, and informed by a recent talk on this history of dressage incl the french school(s), I would say that all of them have moved about a bit in terms of methods and ideals over the years. so I would struggle with any of the schools being able to lay claim to a technique or method with exclusivity anyway So I'll happily leave my buckets in a disordered mess Just as well we're all different, wouldn't life be boring otherwise

 

[tallyho!]

well on the basis that there is nowt new under the sun, and informed by a recent talk on this history of dressage incl the french school(s), I would say that all of them have moved about a bit in terms of methods and ideals over the years. so I would struggle with any of the schools being able to lay claim to a technique or method with exclusivity anyway So I'll happily leave my buckets in a disordered mess Just as well we're all different, wouldn't life be boring otherwise

I think that’s kind of what I was getting at you’re doing alright anyhow aren’t you!!