Dressage German based v French based training

PapaverFollis

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Thanks for the input re. Canter everyone who posted. I shall see what can be done. I may have to work towards a bit more quality in the trot before she's really ready. Husband has left me to it for a couple of weeks so no doubt I've started to get ahead of myself without him telling me to slow the *cough* down. I've been having some very jolly canters on the stubble so perhaps have got over excited. Yes, DabDab... we very much can canter in a field! :lol: Beast has made it clear that hunting would be her preferred sport thanks very much (ears pricked, straight at the hedge line... insufficient training to be able to stop from the seat at that point :lol: we managed to avoid actually jumping the hedge though!)

In the school she just wants to explode up into a massive canter and charge round going "weeeeeee!" I want her to pop into a small, controlled canter do a few strides then come back into the good trot again. So there's a conflict of interest and I haven't exactly set her up for success by blasting up the stubble a few times really! But we had similar with trot at first too so I'm hopeful that we'll muddle through. I am sans instructor now though since moving 400 miles away from mine.

I've had two recent schoolmaster lessons. One was more German school and the horse was horribly wooden and heavy on the hands. Didn't get much out of that. The other was on Ketchup of Cobs Can fame (leans very much towards French school) and she was marvellous...
 

greybadger_19

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...but in terms of how you train the horse he gives the same underlying principles as the classical guys. I started riding like that, as best I could on my own anyway, and it transformed the horse. Almost immediately, she lifted the forehand and offered correct engagement. Like she was saying, "That's how you're supposed to do it. I've been waiting for years for you to figure it out, stupid human." She is very forgiving, a very good horse. Ever since, she has always been willing to offer correct collection and engagement if you ride in a way that enables her to do so. If you're having a bad dressage day, she will putter about on the forehand. But that doesn't mean she won't be uphill and engaged the next day if you remember how to ride. The perfect schoolmistress, really.

I think the day in class that many people, including (unfortunately) some professionals miss when they are training the so-called German school is that they don't offer the horse a release or softening when it does the thing they want. Obviously the best and most effective trainers, no matter what school or philisophical approach, will release, reward, but I see lots of riders -- and trainers too -- scrabbling at the lower levels, driving the horses into a heavy contact and *never* releasing, just holding them there. The horse therefore doesn't have a clear picture of what the rider wants him to do, because they are applying pressure all the time. All but the most stoic horses will act out their frustration in some way, and then people wonder why he's being "cheeky." I don't think any trainer of any school who *deeply* understands how horses learn advocates this approach, but I think the idea of 'driving the horse into a contact' is frequently misintepreted to mean 'drive him into the contact and then hold him there with everything you got.'

This - this - this - this - this!!!
 

DabDab

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Regarding the buckets...

It would be really interesting to see how you would fill them if you knew which was specifically french or german wouldn't it :D If you'd asked me 14 years ago I would not have known.

Truth is, in the UK it would be mainly the german one as BHS is loosely based on this and actually the classical riding we know in this country is german based. I must read Sylvia Loch's book again as in there, there is a very good history of the horse in the UK...

Trainers don't specifically go around saying "well, this is a french/german/western/portuguese technique that might help with blah blah...". Most just have techniques under their sleeve that has worked for them and give it to you so things do get "lost" because we don't use the old terms day in day out anymore and we don't speak french or german.

If/when you do come across pure french/german in your personal dressage journey, it's amazing how much suddenly clicks in place like huge "aha!" moments and you never knew what you were doing was specifically this or that...

Nothing to do with the BHS, more of a cavalry and/or hunting tradition if you had to define it. Lots of having to complete complex types of knot in bailing twine behind your back while cantering in and out of weave poles and such like. I've had lessons/known and watched many people who actively identify themselves as French or German school and if I had to analyse, would say the way I was taught had more in common with French. Apart from anything else, I have never found a firmly German school person who would walk a newly backed horse for 6-10 weeks before even contemplating trot.

For me personally I try not to get to get too blinkered about one approach or another, because I'd rather just be able to listen to a technique/exercise and think 'yeah that makes sense', or 'no not for me', or 'ooh that might be good with such and such a horse' or whatever.
 

tallyho!

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Thanks for the input re. Canter everyone who posted. I shall see what can be done. I may have to work towards a bit more quality in the trot before she's really ready. Husband has left me to it for a couple of weeks so no doubt I've started to get ahead of myself without him telling me to slow the *cough* down. I've been having some very jolly canters on the stubble so perhaps have got over excited. Yes, DabDab... we very much can canter in a field! :lol: Beast has made it clear that hunting would be her preferred sport thanks very much (ears pricked, straight at the hedge line... insufficient training to be able to stop from the seat at that point :lol: we managed to avoid actually jumping the hedge though!)

In the school she just wants to explode up into a massive canter and charge round going "weeeeeee!" I want her to pop into a small, controlled canter do a few strides then come back into the good trot again. So there's a conflict of interest and I haven't exactly set her up for success by blasting up the stubble a few times really! But we had similar with trot at first too so I'm hopeful that we'll muddle through. I am sans instructor now though since moving 400 miles away from mine.

I've had two recent schoolmaster lessons. One was more German school and the horse was horribly wooden and heavy on the hands. Didn't get much out of that. The other was on Ketchup of Cobs Can fame (leans very much towards French school) and she was marvellous...

You will get there in the school. School canter is different to the ones out on a hack.

The muscles are more “core” or back rather than leg. If you’re getting them too whizzy then there’s too much leg in the school it enough core controlling the momentum. Equally your body needs more core too so both of you need to to enough core strength to start and maintain a school canter. If you’ve both got enough strength in the middle then your seat and hands will become lighter to allow the canter to happen. Sounds gobbledegook writing it here and I guess I’m not the best at descriptive writing, but you’ll know what I mean when you “get” it. Some horses are naturally centered but loads are not. Mine is not! Until I can iron out the hollow side in trot, in every movement, we have no chance of even trying a canter stride because she will default to the bowed side to evade out the left shoulder and I will have no chance of holding her straight.
 

PapaverFollis

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Thank you tallyho! that is really useful. I understand what you mean about core strength from both of us. I can feel it in my head, probably thanks to the lesson I had on Ketchup, just got to have the physical reality with The Beast match up.

Posted too quickly...

Does anyone work a School Walk as a matter of interest? Because when I think of the core strength feeling I think of the bit of dabbling with School Walk that we've done. I think I might revisit... especially as she will have canter in her head now to give everything a bit of ooomph.
 
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greybadger_19

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For me personally I try not to get to get too blinkered about one approach or another, because I'd rather just be able to listen to a technique/exercise and think 'yeah that makes sense', or 'no not for me', or 'ooh that might be good with such and such a horse' or whatever.

Ditto. For me it's about having a consistent underlying philosophy, understanding of biomechanics and psychology, and then adding to the experience locker and riding toolbox on top of those foundations.
 

tallyho!

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Yes all the time PF, we quite often slow the tempo and work on each step of the walk and I do it with leg, with seat and with “corsetting” my middle. Working on each of these in turn will help with the movements as you progress. If you rely on just one set of controls so to speak, you might not have another set spare when you’re asking for a few different things at a time ;)
 

DabDab

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Yes I use school walk, but only really out hacking - I like doing school walk, collected trot, medium trot up hill, then back to a sort of extended walk. Good for getting them properly understanding medium trot.
 

greybadger_19

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The one thing to watch with over-using (or, perhaps more accurately incorrectly over-riding) the school walk is it can encourage a lateral, pacing walk. I think of it more of a result of owning each footstep through co-ordinated leg, hand, and softening in rhythm rather than a pace in its own right. But, that's more of that philosophy and feel thing sneaking in :D
 

maya2008

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Whole thing confuses me - I read the books (e.g. Philippe Karl) and they sound great, but then finding an actual person who rides like that is quite hard. Often those who say they are very light in the hand, are not light elsewhere. I'm hypermobile and absolutely cannot apply too much force anywhere (or I will hurt myself). I've also got various horses with physical 'issues'. They can't be forced, and I won't lose their trust by trying, either.

As a young adult, I explored Natural Horsemanship (lots of reading and watching, no particular following of a 'brand'), and enjoyed riding bareback and bridleless, jumping and playing in the school, having fun building a good relationship. Then I learned as much as possible about dressage and tried to mix the two. I now have a few horses who are products of that. When fit - light in both hand and leg, react almost to my thoughts through body language/weight. Absolutely gorgeous to ride for me (and we got up the dressage ladder a bit before I took a break to have children), but they don't then respond well to heavier aids, which can be a problem if I want someone else to ride when I'm ill or away on holiday.

I would say - choose a person who rides the way you like, and accept their instruction! Schools of thought don't always translate the same way across individual trainers.
 

tristar

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maya2008, `finding someone who actually rides like this is quite hard` is an indisputable truth to me, the world is full of philhorseyfy [and his various relatives monty , parelli, gods of the dressage arena etc]

but who are the real deal , actually riding in a way we wish to see.? who can actually do it.

i was on a yard in france where there was 50 iberian stallions, all ridden and in the course of one day watched a french ecurie de dressage
who trained in portugal for 9 years who also studied baucher training a german rider who was there with three warmblood horses and all i learned exactly nothing, and saw nothing that i wanted to replicate, all three systems not functioning all at once

when i see, good riding it stays in my mind forever, like a vision of inspiration to replay.

i see iberian, german and some french ways of riding as very different,due to the postural differences of the riders

today too much talk, not enough riding, how often do people ride,? not enough to make real progress i suspect.
 

milliepops

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who are you defining as "people" in that last sentence, tristar?

Most of the trainers I've found useful ride regularly, some don't have their own horses any more, others ride more than me and I have 2 in full work so spend mostly 2 hours a day in the saddle. That said from a trainers POV I don't think it's essential, tbh, if you can train horses and riders well then what you do in your free time is kind of irrelevant to me, if I had a good trainer I wouldn't care if they spent all their other time waterskiing tbh ;)
 

tallyho!

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I don't think, post riding school, I've ever had a trainer that didn't ride and practise what they preach - I wouldn't have gone to them otherwise (it actually feels more like they just appeared at opportune moments to me). The trainers I have now I can watch them ride different horses and my own horse whenever I want and it's actually considered part of my own education.

Anyway, we're all on our own journey.

I've watched friends ascend the BD levels using what works for them. I don't personally agree with their methods but I'm not about to fall out over it and they don't like what I do and wonder why I fell off the stressage train. I have my own beliefs, they have theirs. Things can change. Ultimately, we all make choices to fulfil our own goals of the moment. For some that is achievement that can be physically measured. For others, it's getting to know Phil Horsefy in a questionably intimate manner...
 

tallyho!

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It’s also sometime called “counted walk”. It’s a two-beat walk where the legs move in diagonal pairs. It’s a very slow measured walk and you should be able to feel the pairs underneath you. The hind legs really need to step under and the front legs need to elongate the step... I’ve heard it be described as a prowling jaguar.
 

Casey76

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Psst... all dressage at French riding schools is “German” based, and most French dressage instructors will also teach “German” because that is what wins at competitions.

“Classical French” instruction is extremely difficult to find.

Though I’m fairly biased as I’m in a very much SJ region, and pure dressage instructors are as rare as hens teeth (the one “well regarded” dressage instructor - who only ever used to take clients of a certain level - advised my friend to put her mare in a very thin bit, a crank nose band and a flash “to make her concentrate”)
 

tallyho!

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Psst... all dressage at French riding schools is “German” based, and most French dressage instructors will also teach “German” because that is what wins at competitions.

“Classical French” instruction is extremely difficult to find.

Though I’m fairly biased as I’m in a very much SJ region, and pure dressage instructors are as rare as hens teeth (the one “well regarded” dressage instructor - who only ever used to take clients of a certain level - advised my friend to put her mare in a very thin bit, a crank nose band and a flash “to make her concentrate”)

Oh no!!! I hasten to disagree there Casey76... how could you!! :D It wasn't until Decarpentry sought to unite the schools in developing the FEI rulebook that German & French was amalgamated into modern dressage and people thought it was one and the same thing!

French classical is as close you could get to Romanic school. De la Gueriniere's work still present in the SRS (until recent outcries that is was going german!).

I read a great article in eurodressage a few years ago. More accessible than Sylvia Loch's book the Horse of Europe. I urge anyone with an interest to have a look.
 

SEL

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Shared on my FB feed by Equipilates (who I appear to be following....) Tought it worth sharing given comments re: Charlotte's hands and core further up

Well I found these words of Carl Hester's really inspiring - we are all in good company whatever level we aspire to ride to! Look out for Autumn EquiPilates Fundamentals course coming soon! 🏇 .......................

“Something that you’ll work on all your life is sitting better and being in a better place. Even Charlotte, just so you know, goes through the same thing at home. We try to make her better. And she wants to get better. And that’s really important for people to realize.

Sometimes I say to her, when we have the demos at home, ‘Tell people what you do to get better because nobody knows. They just presume you go out and win and that’s the way you were.’ But of course, she started at the bottom like everybody else. And she knows that her hands were the most difficult thing of her position in her riding, so we do a lot of work with her arms to get them a bit softer. And Valegro was, and still is, a strong horse. He was a very powerful horse so it took a lot of riding for her in the beginning. She’s having to really learn now to get lighter with the other ones, because they aren’t as powerful as he was.

So she’s learning to get lighter, and she does it with a lot of work on a ball – on a gym ball – to get her core better so that she can sit better so she doesn’t have to use her hands to stay on. Just a little tip so that everybody doesn’t think that you don’t keep trying to get better, because you do.”
Carl Hester
 

oldie48

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Shared on my FB feed by Equipilates (who I appear to be following....) Tought it worth sharing given comments re: Charlotte's hands and core further up

Well I found these words of Carl Hester's really inspiring - we are all in good company whatever level we aspire to ride to! Look out for Autumn EquiPilates Fundamentals course coming soon! �� .......................

“Something that you’ll work on all your life is sitting better and being in a better place. Even Charlotte, just so you know, goes through the same thing at home. We try to make her better. And she wants to get better. And that’s really important for people to realize.

Sometimes I say to her, when we have the demos at home, ‘Tell people what you do to get better because nobody knows. They just presume you go out and win and that’s the way you were.’ But of course, she started at the bottom like everybody else. And she knows that her hands were the most difficult thing of her position in her riding, so we do a lot of work with her arms to get them a bit softer. And Valegro was, and still is, a strong horse. He was a very powerful horse so it took a lot of riding for her in the beginning. She’s having to really learn now to get lighter with the other ones, because they aren’t as powerful as he was.

So she’s learning to get lighter, and she does it with a lot of work on a ball – on a gym ball – to get her core better so that she can sit better so she doesn’t have to use her hands to stay on. Just a little tip so that everybody doesn’t think that you don’t keep trying to get better, because you do.”
Carl Hester

It is so heartening to read this and yes, i can testify to the power of equipilates, it's not turned me into Charlotte but is has greatly improved my position and yes, i'm lighter with my hands (Mr B heaves a sigh of relief) I don't know enough to make a proper comparison, I'm just very happy to find a trainer who looks at me and my horse and adapts the training to make me a better rider and my horse more rideable.
 

tallyho!

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It is so heartening to read this and yes, i can testify to the power of equipilates, it's not turned me into Charlotte but is has greatly improved my position and yes, i'm lighter with my hands (Mr B heaves a sigh of relief) I don't know enough to make a proper comparison, I'm just very happy to find a trainer who looks at me and my horse and adapts the training to make me a better rider and my horse more rideable.

Corework is the only thing to get back riding after a 2nd cesarean. It is definitely worse the 2nd time around. I've also found visual images to keep my core engaged, not rigid, really useful. It really does release the arms and seat and legs.
 

tallyho!

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I found it: http://www.eurodressage.com/2014/09/13/history-french-equitation-part-i-dressage-la-francaise

Hope you enjoy reading it.

Casey76's point about teachers training in a german manner is correct however, you have to bear in mind the type of horses they were riding in Germany when Decarpentry was writing the manual... he does mention flexions (and hands in fact) which I think has been completely misinterpreted...

The worst thing to happen to dressage is the chinese whispers of what to do with the hands that affect the snaffle bit in the horses mouth - PULLING. And every single interpretation of it... "squeezing", "sawing", "shaking" etc. Horses open their mouths at the discomfort, now, you have this massive boom of the use of the flash to stop the mouth from opening. Quite cruel actually. I've been here! I so regret it!!!

The result of of this widespread misinterpretation is the crank noseband, the flash, the huge range of "dressage legal" bits... very few people now know how to use the snaffle. I once posted an awful video of how the snaffle is used and it's effects branding it a terrible bit..... in fact, its nothing to do with the bit. It's the hands and many good riders (you know who you are) said the very same thing at the time. It's the hands. Turn up your wrist so the action is on the corner of the lips, not pulling on the bars. That part of the french school was not omitted by Decarpentry - I have no idea why so many high level riders do not do this. What happened?
 
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