dually headcollar shoeing problems

stroppymare153 said:
One of mine used to not tie up, would pull back, sometimes rearing, breaking the bale string. Solution - if he pulled back we made him keep going back until WE decided he could stop. Rope waggling (sorry! :o) and telling him off very firmly - you could see when the penny dropped and at that point we'd stop and walk forward again with lots of praise and gentle neck stroking. He's fine to tie up now (still a little s*d to shoe but that's another story!)

Could never have got behind him fast enough to send him forward and in doing so, we'd've to have let go of the front end so god knows where he would have ended up!
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That is why with a horse that you know is not good to tie you have a long rope or lunge line. It allows you to get to the back without letting go.
 
I agree with Faracat that a horse who is dangerous to shoe is best off unshod at least temporarily. Get the horse used to handling the feet and then trimming, then go for a pair of fronts if possible as I find things started to get stressful at first when we were halfway done, whichever way round they were done as they start to get fed up, so it may be best to work up to a full set :-)

I don't mind giving a horse a whack if it is being bolshy or taking the pee but I think this horse is doing it out of panic in which case I don't think that action is appropriate.
 
Foxhunter, I think the confusion here is that most people have limited experience with their own horses, and have the time to teach their horse thing in whatever way they wish. Most will never work with lots of horses so will not understand your point. Don't worry, I get it :D
 
Ned has pulled back a couple of times, once when a horse (how he did it I don't know!) flipped a fence off it's hinges and when it fell on the floor, Ned pulled back. I grabbed his headcollar and said "Neeedddddd, caaaaalmm" and after a moment he realise it wasn't a lion, it was just a gate.

The other time I don't know what set him off but I did the same thing and he snapped back to relality and stopped pulling. I've not had to hit him to make him stop pulling, but then I doubt he was in a blind panic. But as someone said, that's not what we're talking about.
 
I agree with pulling back when tied you want the horse to move forward before something breaks, and it then teaches them the release of pressure. However I wouldn't want a horse coming forward at me from a rear, so I guess you want to train it to keep its weight forward in the first place so it's less likely to go up. Or as others have said, take shoes off
 
Foxhunter49 said:
so, you have a horse tied up and it suddenly panics, sits back on the end of the rope struggling to get free. What do you do?
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If you have put time and effort into training your horses how to move into pressure (which is actually a very natural response - not so good for anyone who has ever been stood on and can confirm that as they try to shove the horse off their foot it leans harder - but definitely a useful response if you're a wild horse and have a jackal hanging off your side threatening to disembowel you if you pull away) then you won't ever get into that situation.

I have seen my TB get a fright while tied up - jumped, felt the rope go tight and immediately went forward into it to release pressure. Did all that before I could even get to him.

So, my answer, is yes, you can use a dually (or similar) to teach a horse to stop rearing (been there, done it) but you have to teach the basics of pressure and release first. Accepting being shod is a whole other training session(s).
 
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I have a little story for you!! I have an elderly horse that I have had since he was a weanling. After he was started barefoot we had a lot of fun riding around and I decided I wanted to do an endurance ride - only a little one! But the rules said he had to be shod.....Now Spider had always been fine to pick out hooves, rasp, trim walls and bars etc....so I got a farrier to come and shoe him so we are legal!! 2 shoes went on no problems....came the third and he was a bit 'techy'....so the farrier insisted on a twitch...reluctantly I concurred and we twitched him and finished the job....I did the ride, and the shoes came off in the paddock pretty quickly - wasn't worried and continued trimming myself....Next year I decided to do another ride so booked farrier to come and trim one youngster and shoe Spider....now comes the interesting bit!
The horses were in the pens and when the farrier walked down the slope towards the pens with his gear in his hands Spider freaked....all four legs bent at the knee/hock and he shook - violently!! I was astounded and immediately said 'forget Spider, we'll just trim....' and I have not put shoes on any of my horses since....Spider certainly was telling me something and I listened to him....
 
My gelding was terrible with the farrier and the vet when he arrived - would rear and would get aggressive.

It's taken 3 years to get him to stand quietly and obediently. He still hates the farrier but has realised he was making a fuss about nothing.

My farrier is experienced with naughty horses and quite rightly didn't want to have a fight. In fact farrier has never so much as been grumpy with my horse in all this time, for which he deserves a medal.

We started with full on sedation, moved to dormosedan and now I just have to get horse a little tired and submissive.

the sedation route does work. Horse learns that it will be shod regardless of it's objections and that actually shoeing isn't a big deal.

It's just a bit blooming expensive.

Horse had not ever been shod before he came to me, but had been trimmed and had some repair work done on split hooves, god only knows how they got him to submit, but that's the cause of his problems.
 
siennamum said:
yes, he said would like to run free on the prairie with his horsey friends and maybe one day star in a disney movie alongside monty Roberts. I told him to ***** off & get on with his job.
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LOL You are anthromorphising (I do wish I could spell this!!) Get real!!
 
eatmyshorts said:
If you have put time and effort into training your horses how to move into pressure (which is actually a very natural response - not so good for anyone who has ever been stood on and can confirm that as they try to shove the horse off their foot it leans harder - but definitely a useful response if you're a wild horse and have a jackal hanging off your side threatening to disembowel you if you pull away) then you won't ever get into that situation.
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Foxhunter's method IS pressure release training, that's why it works :)
 
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OP I would bet my bottom dollar that he IS afraid, I bet it does all stem from fear, even if he is exceedingly good at covering this up.

Is it only when at a certain point in shoeing? Or on certain hooves? Is he 100% to pick out feet? to rasp? Is it only on one side? Any known pain or joint stiffness? Is he footie when shod? Does he get a vacant look in his eye ever, as if staring at nothing?

There are two different approaches you can take. One is to treat the symptom (my horse rears when shod). The other treats the cause (my horse is in pain when his leg is held at that angle/he is afraid shoeing is going to hurt due to past experience). The former method could be as foxhunter describes or you could use a dually, but the downside of that for you is that the underlying cause is still there, the horse is force to over ride his reaction any way, and that can lead to more explosive behaviour that is worse, further down the line. I would politely suggest that there is a world of difference in the training methods suitable for a 2 year old horse who is testing the boundaries of acceptable behaviour and a horse with a history of abuse.

Incidentally I do find a dually useful. You need to spend some time schooling the horse to it, and as amymay says a common objection to feeling the dually pressure is for a horse to rear, and it's all about not allowing the pressure to release until he yields to it. The idea being that you are teaching a horse to yield to pressure, which helps with any leading, standing still in hand or tying up problems (but you don't tie a horse up on the schooling setting). It can help you to ascertain that you are in charge when your horse is on a headboard and rope with you, but in my opinion I think it is not the worst but not the best solution for your horse. Putting the two problems together and knowing he has a history of abuse, I think the best way to resolve your horse's problems is to take time to show him that these situations are no threat to him. For tying up I
would do some in-hand schooling to check he understands and is okay with pressure and release and understands that if he moves towards the pressure it will release, then I would get him on a long rope and thread it through the metal tie ring. That way you can hold the end and allow him to pull back to no ill effect - he'll stop trying to if you allow him to do so. Then I would work in tiny steps to see if he can be okay with standing closer to the tie ring, then if he can tolerate even a tiny bit of pressure on the rope - all the time if he does react let him do so then quietly bring him back to the last exercise he was comfortable at and start again.

There is so much more to this. If you'd like detailed help then do pm me with your email address and I will do my best to help you.

Best of luck, it sounds like you have already come so far with him :)
 
I can't believe someone on here has mentioned the American habit of sacking out as though it was something to consider! That was what started the likes of Monty Roberts, Mark Rashid and the American horse whisperer genre on seeking a better kinder way - they considered what the horse might be thinking. We have never ever had to resort to such barbaric practices in this country, we had too many good experienced horsemen around - until now, it seems. I haven't read all the posts, so apologise if someone else has already said it.
If your farrier is willing, and once you have taught your horse pressure and release, could you take a time to train and get your horse happy with the process? One key is reinforcement training - reward each and every effort he makes to tolerate what he has been unhappy with until now. The efforts will get bigger and better if you shape them carefully, but you do need to take the time. As someone mentioned, lots of picking up feet (reward) tapping feet with or without a hammer (reward) beforehand and then lots of time with the farrier.
And have you considered pain? One livery I had had such short cannon bones he hated having his feet picked up above a certain level. Or low grade laminitis (think low sugar diet) - is he as bad with all of his feet? Maybe get some experienced help from one of these people http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html, could be one of the best investments you could make.
 
siennamum said:
My gelding was terrible with the farrier and the vet when he arrived - would rear and would get aggressive.

It's taken 3 years to get him to stand quietly and obediently. He still hates the farrier but has realised he was making a fuss about nothing.

My farrier is experienced with naughty horses and quite rightly didn't want to have a fight. In fact farrier has never so much as been grumpy with my horse in all this time, for which he deserves a medal.

We started with full on sedation, moved to dormosedan and now I just have to get horse a little tired and submissive.

the sedation route does work. Horse learns that it will be shod regardless of it's objections and that actually shoeing isn't a big deal.

It's just a bit blooming expensive.

Horse had not ever been shod before he came to me, but had been trimmed and had some repair work done on split hooves, god only knows how they got him to submit, but that's the cause of his problems.
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Three years, wow!
 
Cptrayes, to add an IMO important distinction; Foxhunter's method is pressure and release with punishment added in, which would be effective in a youngster pushing boundaries but probably not so IMO on a horse with a history like the OP's.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I agree with you and always teach what I want.
However I am not against using discipline at the right time which is the instant it happens.

so, you have a horse tied up and it suddenly panics, sits back on the end of the rope struggling to get free. What do you do?
Going to the horses head to try and undo the rope will not work, chances are the knot has gone to tight.
I tell you that I go for the back end and will do my best to drive the horse forward. If this take a whack with anything I have to hand then so be it. If I have nothing then I will use both hands - anything to get it to go forward.
If that is wrong then please tell me how to stop that horse pulling back - I am always open to new methods.
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I've skimmed this thread and the OP seems to have two problems which has possibly led to confusion. (a) The horse won't tie, and (b) it rears when confronted by the farrier (and on some other occasions).

If the horse is known to be one that pulls back, would you not put one or two turns of a slippery rope (yachting rope works well) attached to a strong head collar around a turning post (immovable straining post sunk at least four feet into solid ground) and have someone on the end who can let it slide while maintaining some pressure?

This is the mild version of sacking out that I was taught. Pressure and release if you like, but on the end of a long rope! As soon as the horse stops trying to go back, the pressure is released, preferably done where there is a wall or a fence behind the horse which acts as a "long stop".

As for knots that tighten and can't be undone quickly , I always have a knife in my pocket honed to a razor edge for just such an emergency! (Never had to use it yet, but it's there!). A horse that has learnt that it only has to use it's strangth to break a tie is a liability.

As for rearing, I'll leave it to the experts! But this appears to me to be escape behaviour. At some stage in it's career, the horse has reared in an attempt to escape a situation it was not happy with. That resulted in the desired effect. Behaviour that ends in a favourable result (for the animal) will be repeated. But how you cure it is another story.

As for a whack on the backside, isn't that like the plumber who was called in by the housewife to fix a faulty boiler? The plumber gave it a tap with his hammer and the fault was cured, then demanded £250 for the job. The housewife protested that that was a lot of money to pay for a tap with a hammer. The plumber replied that the tap cost her only £1, the rest of the bill was for his knowing where to hit it, how hard, and when! Foxhunter clearly knows, from experience, what she is doing and it works for her, the method is probably not to be recommended for those who don't!:D
 
Pale Rider said:
Three years, wow!
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yep, slow and steady wins the race. He's had shoes on in the Summer only, and so the actual times he's been shod have probably been a dozen or so. He has from a few months of me handling him been absolutely fine with me. I could shoe him and he would stand without being tied up if I were able to. It doesn't help tho when he smells a farrier, male or female he is defensive and angry.

I've had a very well thought of NH trainer consider using him as a test horse, but they concluded my methods were pretty sensible and they could do no different or better.

Can I just add what a patronising and stupid comment you made. You really know nothing about me or my horse aside from the few details I've written here so don't make judgements or smart comments, it isn't helpful and does nothing to help the OP.
 
Dry Rot - Whilst I think you make some valid points, the argument isn't whether Foxhunter knows what she's doing. For all I care she whacks with 100% precision, at the right speed, with the right pressure and at the right time. But this isn't what we are discussing. My argument is that there shouldn't be the need to hit in the first place. As a previous posted said (and made a great point in doing so) this would be "fixing" the problem rather than getting to the root of it.
 
siennamum said:
yep, slow and steady wins the race. He's had shoes on in the Summer only, and so the actual times he's been shod have probably been a dozen or so. He has from a few months of me handling him been absolutely fine with me. I could shoe him and he would stand without being tied up if I were able to. It doesn't help tho when he smells a farrier, male or female he is defensive and angry.

I've had a very well thought of NH trainer consider using him as a test horse, but they concluded my methods were pretty sensible and they could do no different or better.

Can I just add what a patronising and stupid comment you made. You really know nothing about me or my horse aside from the few details I've written here so don't make judgements or smart comments, it isn't helpful and does nothing to help the OP.
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You carry on doing what you do, you're obviously very pleased with yourself.
 
cptrayes said:
Foxhunter's method IS pressure release training, that's why it works :)
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Though mine has never needed the whack on the bum bit! (He'd had enough of that with previous owners which had turned him into the"dangerous maniac" his reputation was when i brought him). Not that I'm saying other methods involving whacking won't work, may be that they'll even work faster, I just think if there are ways which don't require that.Personally, I'd rather spend a little time to avoid it.

SM, you're horse is trying to tell you something, I hope you'll listen. Has he earned his dangerous maniac title yet?

P.S You're comments re him wanting to run free were, although funny, were perhaps a tad rude considering the other poster was trying to help?
 
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Foxhunter's method may work perfectly well for a rude or poorly trained horse but for a dangerous horse you could end up getting injured.

When a horse is so traumatised that it zones out of all reasoned thinking, in a mind set similar to a bolting horse, sending it forward with a whack or a growl is likely to get the horse and handlers hurt.
Approach depends entirely on the severity of the horse's problem. Faffing and coo-cooing isn't the only alternative to a shout and whack.
 
Very good point - it'd have never have worked for my boy and would have made things worse. Horse's behaviour and temperament definitely have to be taken into consideration.
 
eatmyshorts said:
Though mine has never needed the whack on the bum bit! (He'd had enough of that with previous owners which had turned him into the"dangerous maniac" his reputation was when i brought him). Not that I'm saying other methods involving whacking won't work, may be that they'll even work faster, I just think if there are ways which don't require that.Personally, I'd rather spend a little time to avoid it.

OP you're horse is trying to tell you something, I hope you'll listen. Has he earned his dangerous maniac title yet?

P.S You're comments re him wanting to run free were, although funny, were perhaps a tad rude considering the other poster was trying to help?
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I'd agree that the horse is trying to tell them something. I'd also agree that hitting them does no good. Dangerous maniac's are made not born.
 
What would everyone be thinking if they were in this horse's place? And what would be important enough for him to put in all the effort needed to rear when he should be tied up? "I really really don't want this man to mess with my feet because I don't like men"? Most horses would just suck it up. Or because "I am frightened he might hurt me (again??)"? THAT would be worth the effort. And "if he is hurting me he might go another step further and kill me" That would be worth a huge effort to avoid - he doesn't know how to differentiate between hurting and killing.
So how exactly would hurting him even more by sacking out (or the so-called humane version) or whacking him make that less of a problem for him? It sounds as though he is very close to a panic reaction anyway, adding another layer of fear would surely tip him over the edge - into a dangerous maniac.
Desensitising, teaching, training, being a quiet consistent leader from whom he can gain confidence - these are the marks of a good horseperson, not bullying and physical violence.
 
eatmyshorts said:
SM, you're horse is trying to tell you something, I hope you'll listen. Has he earned his dangerous maniac title yet?

P.S You're comments re him wanting to run free were, although funny, were perhaps a tad rude considering the other poster was trying to help?
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Honestly, wtf are you on about, My dangerous maniac horse is off SJ & dressage at the weekend, he is a happy, quiet, well behaved horse who had a bad start in life. Sometimes people on here are so arrogant it is deeply irritating.
 
If you read my post in Paleriders quote you'll see initially i was confusing your horse/comments with the OP' s - i then later corrected my reply.

However.......... the fact remains.....you don't realise your comment was patronizing? Wow. Glad to hear that you were able to teach your horse some manners, even if it did take you 3 years :rolleyes:

FWIW I agree sedation is very useful in some circumstances to allow a horse to realise there is actually nothing to worry as about.
 
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FreddiesGal said:
Dry Rot - Whilst I think you make some valid points, the argument isn't whether Foxhunter knows what she's doing. For all I care she whacks with 100% precision, at the right speed, with the right pressure and at the right time. But this isn't what we are discussing. My argument is that there shouldn't be the need to hit in the first place. As a previous posted said (and made a great point in doing so) this would be "fixing" the problem rather than getting to the root of it.
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I understand where you are coming from but there is something I would call "one lesson learning" when a quick sharp shock will stop a behaviour dead in it's tracks (think electric fencing)! Not everything in training can be achieved by the kind and caring method, but, I admit, it does take expertise and is not to be recommended as general advice.

I am interested in analysing behavioural problems and going for the long term solution, as you obviously are.
 
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