dually headcollar shoeing problems

[Tnavas]

Two words - broken neck. I have known at least one and there is a so called trainer I know of who used to regularly tie young horses to a fixed stanchion. One or two horses disappeared unaccountably.

No - horse tied too short and in all the years they have been doing this they lost only one with a broken fetlock.

 

[Dry Rot]

If I may clarify a few points about my post on teaching to tie up. We don't use a soft rope as a previous poster has suggested but a hard braided nylon rope purchased from a marine store, similar to the stuff in the picture. This is tied to the loop of a rope head collar and then looped around a post. This sort of rope is very strong and designed to slide easily. It is the same stuff I make my rope head collars out of. (It's strong, so never use it to tie up solid!).



Sometimes a rope threaded twice through a ring doesn't slip the instant you want it to which is why we use a turning post in the middle of the round pen. With one or two turns around a post and an experienced person on the end of the rope, the rope can be let out whilst maintaining pressure, i.e. the horse does not get rewarded by pulling back but doesn't get a severe shock either. Just make sure one loop does not lie over the top of another or it won't slide as it should.

The fence of the round pen acts as a "long stop". When the horse's backside comes up against the fence, he isn't going back any further! (So the contact acts like Foxhunters slap on the backside! The horse instinctively goes forward releasing pressure and self-rewarding). Obviously, your rope must be long enough to allow for this.

I am an inveterate brain stormer. I ask for advice and always listen to what is said. As a wise man once pointed out, you don't have to follow the advice! A lot of old experienced horse trainers used to use the "tie up to something solid and let them fight" method of teaching to tie. Of course, the prophets of doom will point to the pile of corpses with broken necks. But that is the way it was done. I don't like it, hence the modification. Generally, horses (even youngsters) that are tied for the first time back off without a lot of violent force. It seems to be more of a "toe in the water" reaction. Judicious use of pressure on the rope works just the same as pressure and release to get a youngster to lead and properly done the lesson shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

As for the fear of being shod, well, lots and lots of desensitisation starting out with a long stick, upping the odds every time, then lifting by hand 100 times a day, tapping, etc. As a wise old lady once told me, "Nothing can remain frightened for ever". It's just a question of who gives up first!

 

[Tnavas]

If I may clarify a few points about my post on teaching to tie up. We don't use a soft rope as a previous poster has suggested but a hard braided nylon rope purchased from a marine store, similar to the stuff in the picture. This is tied to the loop of a rope head collar and then looped around a post. This sort of rope is very strong and designed to slide easily. It is the same stuff I make my rope head collars out of. (It's strong, so never use it to tie up solid!).

My rope is the same as what you use but after many years of use and a few washes has gone soft.

 

[thehorsephotographer]

Excellent post DR. I now use that rope too.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel. Perhaps you have never seen some experienced horsemen work with horses, no patting or cooing needed, just use a calm, logical approach to fix the problem from its cause rather than the symptom.

These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses. I don't doubt you deal with a lot of bargy, ill mannered horses. Fortunately, I don't.

I do have some experience with traumatised and at times dangerous behaviour, this is quite different from poorly trained horses.

I thought the 'whack and shout' school of thought had died out on the better professional yards.

Do you still equate a quiet, considered approach as being soft ?

Cuddling and cooing have little value in horse training, so don't confuse resolving issues from the root cause as a soft option.

You do remind me of young girls in RS who unfortunately are sometimes misguided into thinking being tough and shouty gives the impression that they're seasoned and experienced.
It does the opposite.

 

[Foxhunter49]

Originally Posted by Foxhunter49
A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel. Perhaps you have never seen some experienced horsemen work with horses, no patting or cooing needed, just use a calm, logical approach to fix the problem from its cause rather than the symptom.

I have probably seen more genuine horsemen and women work with horses than a lot of others. Most of these are long dead and just because they were of the old school does not mean that they were rough and cruel, anything but.
These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses. I don't doubt you deal with a lot of bargy, ill mannered horses. Fortunately, I don't. Yes, I have had a fair few ill mannered horses in my time. Strangely enough they arrived this way but soon learned that having manners was an easier option.

I do have some experience with traumatised and at times dangerous behaviour, this is quite different from poorly trained horses.

I thought the 'whack and shout' school of thought had died out on the better professional yards.
Unfortunately there are many places that still work this way. I am not adverse to a firm fast correction applied at the right time.This is not beating a horse up

Do you still equate a quiet, considered approach as being soft ?
It is the way I work

Cuddling and cooing have little value in horse training, so don't confuse resolving issues from the root cause as a soft option. Agreed

You do remind me of young girls in RS who unfortunately are sometimes misguided into thinking being tough and shouty gives the impression that they're seasoned and experienced.
It does the opposite.

Unfortunately you have the wrong impression. I do not go around yelling and shouting. I do not beat horses up, I have a very cool calm and determined manner with them at all times. My heart rate never changes.
The impression you have is a jumped to conclusion. I have a way with the horses to the point that I was sent very difficult youngsters to break for racehorse trainers and when employed by one renowned lady trainer it was my duty to clip every horse (over 80) and there was only one that I had to have someone come and hold. The rest I did on my own and several of those animals had to be doped the previous season.

 

[Queenbee]

Originally Posted by Foxhunter49
A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel. Perhaps you have never seen some experienced horsemen work with horses, no patting or cooing needed, just use a calm, logical approach to fix the problem from its cause rather than the symptom.

These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses. I don't doubt you deal with a lot of bargy, ill mannered horses. Fortunately, I don't.

Not necessarily directly relevant to this thread... But I often find so many horse being wilfully bad mannered because they can. The reason they can... Because the owner knows they've had a bad past and is tip toeing around. The horse reads them in seconds and pushes and pushes that little bit more each day ending up with a bad mannered horse who runs rings around an owner afraid to reprimand because of the horses traumatic past.

Even though these horses seem to be calling the shots... This is just as traumatic/stressful for them... They like to know what is expected from them, they are calmer and happier knowing what is expected from them, whilst some of FH's approaches are not mine, I get the sentiment. Be strong and clear and immediate with your signals and commands... You will end up with a much happier calmer horse in the end...

With regards to op... I agree, ditch the shoes, teach tying up and leading, go back to basics and play with the feet banging them etc... Look at food... Could the horse be calmer with a change of diet. Work on general ground manners. Consider a change of farrier... I do know of a few horses who just do not like certain farriers and behave like saints for others. With regards to sedative... I think the farriers attitude is a bit extreme, the horse won't forget his experience, and it is a good approach to reduce the sedative a bit each time.

These things do take time, but they get there in the end.

 

[Fellewell]

Any horse can go from zero to dangerous in no time at all and you need some tricks up your sleeve when this happens

I've seen an older schoolmaster with impeccable manners put out on loan and become a brat within a fortnight. Of course if the basic training is there the damage is not irreparable.

All horses of whatever age are a work in progress IMO.

 

[Jools2345]

As for tying to bailer twine - that, even the thin stuff does not always break.

Tying to bailer twine is never the safe option people think it is, (there was an article about this in the H&H recently)

You will be exceedingly lucky if you are around horses full time if you never see a horse pull back when tied. I would be interested to know what you would do if it happened and nothing was going to break and the knot had pulled tight (even a quick release knot will pull tight with the pressure especially if tied to bailer twine)

I am not advocating the methods foxhunter suggested but i do agree with the above, i never tie to baling string always directly to a tie ring, the reason is so that in an emergency the knot is far more likely to come undone when the rope is pulled-but if a horse is panicking i am afraid i stay out of the way until they have calmed down. if they are being badly behaved they will get a slap on the bum or a broom poked up their behind-the same a fh i want to stop the pulling back

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Originally Posted by Foxhunter49
A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel. Perhaps you have never seen some experienced horsemen work with horses, no patting or cooing needed, just use a calm, logical approach to fix the problem from its cause rather than the symptom.

I have probably seen more genuine horsemen and women work with horses than a lot of others. Most of these are long dead and just because they were of the old school does not mean that they were rough and cruel, anything but.
These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses. I don't doubt you deal with a lot of bargy, ill mannered horses. Fortunately, I don't. Yes, I have had a fair few ill mannered horses in my time. Strangely enough they arrived this way but soon learned that having manners was an easier option.





Unfortunately you have the wrong impression. I do not go around yelling and shouting. I do not beat horses up, I have a very cool calm and determined manner with them at all times. My heart rate never changes.
The impression you have is a jumped to conclusion. I have a way with the horses to the point that I was sent very difficult youngsters to break for racehorse trainers and when employed by one renowned lady trainer it was my duty to clip every horse (over 80) and there was only one that I had to have someone come and hold. The rest I did on my own and several of those animals had to be doped the previous season.

I did wonder if I'd got the wrong impression, not only from your posts on this thread but from your posts in general. You do seem to repeat a mantra of 'I wouldn't accept that, give him a whack'. Although, I don't think you beat horses up, I get the impression of a bossy approach.

It isn't black and white, and to dismiss a less confrontational approach as cooing is blinkered.

 

[Queenbee]

Any horse can go from zero to dangerous in no time at all and you need some tricks up your sleeve when this happens

I've seen an older schoolmaster with impeccable manners put out on loan and become a brat within a fortnight. Of course if the basic training is there the damage is not irreparable.

All horses of whatever age are a work in progress IMO.

Very good post... Especially the last line.

 

[Foxhunter49]

I did wonder if I'd got the wrong impression, not only from your posts on this thread but from your posts in general. You do seem to repeat a mantra of 'I wouldn't accept that, give him a whack'. Although, I don't think you beat horses up, I get the impression of a bossy approach.

It isn't black and white, and to dismiss a less confrontational approach as cooing is blinkered.

If you call being determined to show a horse that I am a good leader that can be trusted - then yes, I am bossy.

Something I thought about earlier.
If a horse runs back into another in the field what happens?
Chances are that the horse being run into will double barrel in defence and to hold its position in the herd.
If a horse pulls back and is given a whack with the rope what is the difference between a human sending it away (forward) or the other horse in the field?

 

[Queenbee]

If you call being determined to show a horse that I am a good leader that can be trusted - then yes, I am bossy.

Something I thought about earlier.
If a horse runs back into another in the field what happens?
Chances are that the horse being run into will double barrel in defence and to hold its position in the herd.
If a horse pulls back and is given a whack with the rope what is the difference between a human sending it away (forward) or the other horse in the field?

I have to say, I'm firm but gentle and prepared to take it gently gently... Unless things look to be getting to dangerous behaviour, or habit. However, one day our cob started barging out of her stables, I kept putting her in, being firm with voice commands and body posture... But in the space of 10 mins she barged out three times and knocked the door low on its hinges... That was enough for me, as she came forward I gave a firm tug on the lead rope, growled and kneed her in the chest... Have to say after looking at me in shock... like she couldnt believe id got 'hard' she was foot perfect after that... It was like she was loosing the plot because I wasn't being firm enough even though for many horses my signals would have been clear. She was a horse that had been traumatised before We got her, a firm telling off didn't do her damage and infact I could visibly see her calming straight away as she knew exactly where her boundaries were.

 

[AmyMay]

I'm not 'fluffy' by any stretch of the imagination. Have to say though foxhunter you seem to have a rather heavy handed attitude. Never needed one myself - from new born to old enough to know better, a firm and consistent approach is all that has ever been needed.

 

[Pale Rider]

The answer to your original question is 'no'. A horse which has developed rearing as a fear response to something with which he can't cope, or which has learned rearing as an evasion, will not be 'controlled' by any forceful means. Any form of physical restraint of such an animal will only serve to make it more fearful, more resistant, and much more dangerous than a rearer.

Had you asked...'would a Dually help my horse who rears due to his being badly treated in the past, and because he is afraid of being shod'...I would say yes, there is a chance that a Dually, correctly used, could be beneficial in training your horse into a new way of being handled which would, in turn, change his attitude to his lot and would build trust in him, would ultimately negate his rearing response, and would help him cope with being shod.

The rearing is the last thing he learned to do, and he has learned that it gains him freedom from the fearful process of shoeing. He would doubtless have tried other less extreme forms of avoidance previously and it was his handlers' methods of dealing with those, which caused him to increase his resistance and resort to rearing. Therefore, to focus on his rearing and attempt to prevent it will only cause him more fear, leading to more extreme resistance.

My advice to you would be to forget about shoeing your horse until you have taught him how to yield to pressure, how to trust, and how to be willingly compliant.

Agreed.

I'd not use a Dually for anything though, (personal bias).

 

[AengusOg]

I'd not use a Dually for anything though, (personal bias).

I use a Dually when starting horses into long reins, but I don't rate them for anything else.

 

[ridefast]

A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel.

These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses.

Like

 

[fburton]

A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel.

These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses.

I don't think it's necessarily the case that those who dislike the 'I wouldn't accept that, give him a whack' approach and bossy handling are advocating correcting only with coos, pats or food. That's too black-and-white. There a sensible middle ground in which people are perfectly effective by being gentle where possible and firm where necessary (but always consistent).

Those who are able to get horses to behave without needing to get obviously 'physical' are to be admired and followed, imo. Of course, there's a world of difference between the very occasional (certainly not more than once in a year) dramatically forceful correction/punishment and routine bossiness. Foxhunter49, I don't assume you're in the latter category.

None of which is a comment on OP's problem. Without actually seeing the horse with the farrier, it's impossible to know for sure, although my gut feeling is that upping the force is not the way to go.