dually headcollar shoeing problems

[Dizzleton]

For the OP: I hope I've understood everything as I got a little caught up in the ill advised comments of some people.

If it was my horse, I would take it back to basics and address the two main problems 1) Not wanting to be tied up 2) Fear of being shod.

1) Safety of you and your horse is very important, so I'd advise to always wear a hat and gloves around him incase of an accident and to buy him an equi-ping tie. They give way under a certain pressure so is safer for your horse in the event of a fall etc.

When I had a pony that wouldn't tie up, I got it an likit treat hanger to keep him occupied whilst tying up, it kept him busy and he enjoyed coming in for it. I started with a couple of minutes tied up with his likit treat, gradually increasing it to 10, 15 then 20 minutes. I then slowly took the likit away and he still continued to behave himself, after a few months of training he could stand for a good 30 minutes without his likit and without trying to rear/escape.

2) The next problem is with the farrier. He obviously has learnt one of two things; A - The farrier/shoeing is terrifying B - If I rear/play-up I will get out of being shod. I believe it is A by the way you have described him.
I would suggest a oral paste calmer which are brilliant for calming nervous horses without leaving them unaware what is going on. Again, I would also suggest taking him back to basics where you pick up each foot for a second and place it back down along with a big pat and even a treat. Do this as much as possible until your horse is comfortable with you holding his foot. Once he is calm and relaxed pick out his hooves so he's used to movement on his feet, the next step once he is comfortable with his hooves being picked is to tap his hoof gently with the rounded edge of the hood pick. Again, carry on doing each step until he is totally relaxed. Move the tapping onto the metal shoe so he get's used to the metal on metal noise too.
Get him used to this as much a possible and do it where ever you can - so field, leading in from the field, stable, arena etc etc. He'll soon learn that there isn't going to be pain when he's shod.

(Remember to keep praising him on good behaviour and do not panic or get angry if something goes wrong, just ignore him and start again).

Here is a link for some paste calmer and an equi-ping:

http://www.kmeliteproducts.co.uk/horse-essentials-supplements-ea/so-kalm-paste

http://www.kmeliteproducts.co.uk/Yard/equi-ping-hot-pink

Hope it all works!

 

[siennamum]

If you read my post in Paleriders quote you'll see initially i was confusing your horse/comments with the OP' s - i then later corrected my reply.

However.......... the fact remains.....you don't realise your comment was patronizing? Wow. Glad to hear that you were able to teach your horse some manners, even if it did take you 3 years

FWIW I agree sedation is very useful in some circumstances to allow a horse to realise there is actually nothing to worry as about.

Of course you would never be patronising, jump to conclusions or say stupid stuff.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Another interesting point and example DR.

One thing i have found in training remedial horses is that if a situation is forced ie. they are made to do something, as opposed to being given the opportunity to learn something ie being allowed to make a mistake then given a consequence for their action hence being given the chance to learn to make the right choice, then in the latter case, once their decision to co-operate is made, they are far more likely to stick to it. Does that make sense?

To relate it to this case, if the horse was schooled to understand how to release pressure by being doing groundwork in a dually when there was plenty of time to learn, once he was in the stressful situation of dealing with the farrier he'd probably be more likely to remember his lessons and react accordingly if he did go to rear, without the need for somebody trying to hold him down.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Of course you would never be patronising, jump to conclusions or say stupid stuff.

Sigh. *saving my breath*

Good advice JC, you sounds like you have lots of patience there. We had a 17.2 who's default was to rear if he didn't want to do something (pretty sure it wasn't fear related in his case) and it's amazing what patience and allowing them to learn can achieve.

 

[thehorsephotographer]

It's a shame to see yet another post descend into somewhat personal attacks. The good advice tends to get lost in with all the insults flying about. But FWIW a couple of things I think are pertinent:

Tying up with bailer twine: I have one of the sweetest mares you could wish to meet. She stands tied up as long as I want and often goes to sleep whilst stood there whilst I do whatever it is I'm doing. One day she was fastened up with a quick release knot (which she can actually and does sometimes release herself!) through a loop of thinned out (i.e. not the full thickness of twine) bailer twine through a tie ring. I had literally stepped not 5 feet from her when something frightened her and she panicked. She pulled back and the bailer twine twisted as she struggled around the lead rope. In this instance her head collar broke and the clip on the lead rope broke. There was no chance at all that I could either take the headcollar off of release the lead rope quick enough. When she was free she didn't run but stood quietly whilst I calmed her down after her ordeal. Thankfully she wasn't seriously hurt but did take the hair off some of the area under the headcollar before it broke. The way the bailer twine tightened around the leadrope really shocked me as I thought that this was a very safe way of tying them up and it was quite thin to start with. So don't assume that even though your horse is well trained not to panic etc. that you will be safe using bailer twine in this way and your horse will never panic. My mare is about as bombproof and calm as you will find anywhere. Freak things can happen which set off the flight or fight instinct in the best of horses.

As far as I can see Foxhunter is not advocating beating - which is totally different from making it aware you are behind it. What she is describing to me reads as letting the horse know that going backwards may not be the best option as there is something behind them so better move forward. Often this transference of awareness can be enough to advert a more dangerous situation from unfolding with a horse panicking and rearing. Plus I'd rather be at the back end with it's feet on the ground than standing at the front waiting to see where they are going to land.

My approach with this horse however would be to spend an awful lot of time picking up and picking out/faffing around with it's feet. Moving them both forwards and backwards before asking the farrier to risk injury. It can be done. I've had several horses who were horrendous to deal with around their hooves who are all pretty good now (one is still a work in progress!).

Re the tying up that needs work, time and patience. Tie up the horse, groom it faff or whatever and make the gap get longer that it is fastened up for and as it gets longer start walking away from it.

Start feeding treats all the time to get it to do things and your are, in my opinion, making a rod for your own back. Like the mums you see with horrendous kids in tescos who say "just do this.....and I'll take you to mcdonalds after" They never do as they're told but you always see them sat there eating their happy meal, stressed out mum at their side as you leave.

 

[FreddiesGal]

Like the mums you see with horrendous kids in tescos who say "just do this.....and I'll take you to mcdonalds after" They never do as they're told but you always see them sat there eating their happy meal, stressed out mum at their side as you leave.

That is bribery, not reward for good behaviour - totally different things.

That scenario would not work because for one) that is human logic, and two) horses would not understand if we said that.

Waving a carrot infront of the horses' nose and saying "Oh just let me pick up the hoof then you can have it" would be totally pointless.

Giving the horse a carrot after it allowed you to pick the hoof up however would be beneficial, because the horse would associate having his feet handled with good things.

 

[JillA]

Just to clarify something - there is a world of difference between bribery (do this and you will get a treat) and positive reinforcement (something nice follows as a consequence of an action). The subject animal isn't aware there is something available until AFTER they have performed the action.
I can recommend Don't Shoot the Dog by Karon Pryor, a really useful book about reinforcement in lots of different species, the theory and the science, not necessarily the application in horses.
In fact reinforcement is how all creatures learn, eating the right and wrong things, taking a certain route, dealing with another species - evolution is a result of reinforcement, either positive or negative, those who don't learn what has a good result and what doesn't tend not to survive long. It is scientific fact - used and developed to train sea life, it really isn't easy to teach a dolphin to stay put by tying it up!
We use treats because they are easy to offer and keep handy, and because for a lot of species they are what the animal will work for. Less so in grazing animals who eat all day and every day than in predators who are geared to only eating every two or three days, but rest and safety can powerful reinforcers for grazing animals (they do like treats though ).
Sorry, slightly off topic but I thought it was important to differentiate, so that people don't dismiss a really powerful training tool because it feels like bribery.

Sorry FreddiesGal, cross posted

 

[Meowy Catkin]

With horses you have three seconds to reward/correct, otherwise the horse does not associate the reward/correction with the behavior.

This is why clicker training is very effective with horses (you only click the clicker for the correct behavior and if you get the timing right - you click as the horse is still doing the desirable behavior).

 

[thehorsephotographer]

Yes I concur with what you are both saying and didn't actually use a very good example there but I don't believe that if your horse is genuinely frightened of something to the point that it's fight or flight instinct kicks in and it tries to run off, rear or whatever that offering a carrot or some other food will solve the problem. At that precise moment that the horses instinct tells it to run it's not interested in eating.

By all means work on handling the hooves and legs and if you want use food as positive reinforcement. If it works I suppose the worst that will happen is when farrier comes horse whips round and bites him when said treat isn't forthcoming as quick as it thinks it should be. At best you could solve the problem.

I give my horses treats in certain situations from time to time but not frequently enough for them to become expected and then they pester me for them. Or try to get into the pocket they know I usually have them in.

 

[amandap]

In fact reinforcement is how all creatures learn, eating the right and wrong things, taking a certain route, dealing with another species - evolution is a result of reinforcement, either positive or negative, those who don't learn what has a good result and what doesn't tend not to survive long.

That is quite a statement. I'm no scientist but to me that is simplistic in the extreme and I would call it verging on propaganda. Yes, reinforcement is one way animals learn but it is only a (small ?) part of evolutionary and behavioural mechanisms in my obviously numpty understanding.

 

[Fellewell]

As with so many things it's the singer, not the song.

Whether you choose old school British or old school American the end result is pretty much the same and the recurring theme is the handler.

If a horse is being a dick and the owner is given a piece of kit which they utterly believe will work, chances are it will work. It's the psychological aspect that works and changes the handlers attitude and the change in their attitude works for the horse because he wants to follow the leader.

When a horse offers his hoof he's being completely submissive. Submission works for me, it's kept me safe all these years so I'll continue to use it

If I find a good farrier I want to keep him/her because if I can't the only option is one with not many clients on their books and IME there's usually a good reason for that

 

[Emma_H]

A dually only works as a training aid on the side rings and is a normal headcollar on the under chin ring.

A horse must never be tied up on the side rings of the headcollar. I don't think it would help a rearer

 

[Pale Rider]

As with so many things it's the singer, not the song.

Whether you choose old school British or old school American the end result is pretty much the same and the recurring theme is the handler.

If a horse is being a dick and the owner is given a piece of kit which they utterly believe will work, chances are it will work. It's the psychological aspect that works and changes the handlers attitude and the change in their attitude works for the horse because he wants to follow the leader.

When a horse offers his hoof he's being completely submissive. Submission works for me, it's kept me safe all these years so I'll continue to use it

If I find a good farrier I want to keep him/her because if I can't the only option is one with not many clients on their books and IME there's usually a good reason for that

Pity there isn't a like button on here.

 

[Foxhunter49]

Dry Rot - Whilst I think you make some valid points, the argument isn't whether Foxhunter knows what she's doing. For all I care she whacks with 100% precision, at the right speed, with the right pressure and at the right time. But this isn't what we are discussing. My argument is that there shouldn't be the need to hit in the first place. As a previous posted said (and made a great point in doing so) this would be "fixing" the problem rather than getting to the root of it.

Negative and positive.
If a horse gets a whack from behind to send it forward if it is pulling back then it learns that it gets a surprise and shoots forward.
I fully agree and have said, that a horse should be taught to yield to poll pressure but they do do silly things like pulling back!

What I am stating is no different to Cesar Milan touching an aggressive dog with his foot to distract it.

As with any praise or correction - timing is everything.

With the tie high method it is not 'sacking out' - that is a totally different thing altogether and something I would not do to break a horse.


By the way it is ANTHROPOMORPHISE write it out 1,000 times and you will remember it!

 

[AengusOg]

..would a Dually help in controlling the very rapid rearing he is very, very ,good at it,Pure Arab gelding.Lovely in every way but has this block.Perfect otherwise.He has been abused but we have overcome all that...the shoeing problem remains..
Thanks.

The answer to your original question is 'no'. A horse which has developed rearing as a fear response to something with which he can't cope, or which has learned rearing as an evasion, will not be 'controlled' by any forceful means. Any form of physical restraint of such an animal will only serve to make it more fearful, more resistant, and much more dangerous than a rearer.

Had you asked...'would a Dually help my horse who rears due to his being badly treated in the past, and because he is afraid of being shod'...I would say yes, there is a chance that a Dually, correctly used, could be beneficial in training your horse into a new way of being handled which would, in turn, change his attitude to his lot and would build trust in him, would ultimately negate his rearing response, and would help him cope with being shod.

The rearing is the last thing he learned to do, and he has learned that it gains him freedom from the fearful process of shoeing. He would doubtless have tried other less extreme forms of avoidance previously and it was his handlers' methods of dealing with those, which caused him to increase his resistance and resort to rearing. Therefore, to focus on his rearing and attempt to prevent it will only cause him more fear, leading to more extreme resistance.

My advice to you would be to forget about shoeing your horse until you have taught him how to yield to pressure, how to trust, and how to be willingly compliant.

 

[Tnavas]

You need to teach him to yield to poll pressure!
When you want to tie him take a long strong line and thread it through something solid, do not tie him but hold the end of the line. When he rears or starts to run back get behind him and use the rope to whack him on the backside and send him forward.
The American way is to tie very high up to something solid. Strong rope and halter, the tie point should be way above head height. This way they cannot get the right tension to pull back . Just let them get on with it and realise that they cannot get their own way.

Once you have sorted out the tying problems and got a bit tougher with the manners department, odds on he will be fine to shoe.

I agree with Foxhunter

The horse needs to learn to tie up first. He needs to understand that pressure on the poll means he must drop his head. With his head low he cannot rear.

Two methods to use - takes a great deal of time and you can't leave the horse while you do it - thread rope through the ring twice and hold the end while you work. If horse pulls back, then get up it's bum and send it forward - a whack with a schooling whip usually works. The moment the horse moves forward the reward is a release of the pressure - he's created his own reward.
If things get really hairy then you can always release the rope wrapped around the ring.

The second method is sort of a passive method of the first
I use a bum rope when I teach mine to tie and if you tie higher than their head they cannot get the leverage needed to break everything.

Equipment
A strong head collar with a padded headpiece. A normal lead rope. A very long soft rope - the sort used in sailing. Somewhere that is not likely to break or pop out of the wall if horse pulls back on. The knot at the withers is a bowline and the rope is also tied to the ring in a bowline - easy to undo. The rope is threaded through the throat and centre ring of the headcollar, the horse is also tied with a normal rope. The bum rope must come into action before the lead rope gets any pressure put on it.



In NZ - this is how some of the Standardbred weanlings are taught to tie up - they never pull back after completing their training.

 

[AmyMay]

Oh, lets all do picture 2.

 

[Tnavas]

Oh, lets all do picture 2.

Looks awful but in fact they all come out of it fine and tie up well. The wall is now actually padded at my suggestion as they would sometimes graze themselves on the boards. The footing was good and because the rope is short they can't throw themselves around too much. You could tie them anywhere!

We sorted out my TB that I had at the time by tying him like this.

 

[AmyMay]

It's appalling.

 

[Tnavas]

It's appalling.

Why?

 

[Queenbee]

Oh why is that?
Farrier very patient.
As for sedation,yes,have done that but farrier says horse will not become confident enough to allow shoeing as will not remember so we will still be at square one!!
Hence the Dually question.
Thanks.

The best horse I ever had to lead or tie up had been left in a headcollar in the stable during the day whilst people were there, attached to the headcollar was a long flat lead rope (flat ones don't risk tangling) she taught herself pressure and release, she always kept the rope slack to her handler, once she learnt to yield to the tension she was tied up, again with a watcher... She never even tried to pull back.

Tnavas I'd be concerned about neck injuries and pulled muscles in picture two

 

[Tnavas]

The best horse I ever had to lead or tie up had been left in a headcollar in the stable during the day whilst people were there, attached to the headcollar was a long flat lead rope (flat ones don't risk tangling) she taught herself pressure and release, she always kept the rope slack to her handler, once she learnt to yield to the tension she was tied up, again with a watcher... She never even tried to pull back.

Tnavas I'd be concerned about neck injuries and pulled muscles in picture two

I was too but because the rope is so short they can't get too violent in their antics. The stud had been preparing weanlings like this for decades and had only lost one from injury in over 50 years.

 

[Alyth]

LOL The very best way to teach a horse to respond (not react) to pressure is Parellis porcupine game!!!

 

[lastchancer]

Teach him to tie up first - I wouldn't tie a horse of that age straight to a fixed object as he'll panic and throw himself about, instead use a long rope threaded through a ring and just keep putting a bit of poll pressure on when he pulls back, this way he will teach himself to yield to the pressure on his poll but you can release it if he has a panic episode.

No point using any kind of pressure halter until he learns how to relieve the pressure, hence the above lesson.

Once he understands then you could use a regular head collar or pressure halter to help keep him in position whilst he's been shod, again don't tie him up, just thread the rope through the ring and keep hold of the other end, feel free to stuff his face with polo's as a distraction/reward when he gets it right.

If he's really badly traumatized then it will take a while to build his confidence for shoeing, maybe just have fronts on to begin with? Also if possible let him stand near another (quiet) horse whilst it is shod. Practice holding his feet up for extended periods of time, stretching them out and even resting them on cones, all this helps him to understand the shoeing process.

Don't let yourself or anyone else get mad with him and hit/yell at him, or you'll undo whatever progress has been made.

 

[lastchancer]

Do you think he is trying to say something?

LOL You are anthromorphising (I do wish I could spell this!!) Get real!!

Bit of a contradiction there?

 

[Tnavas]

Do you think he is trying to say something?

"Yes! I'm a little ratbag that wasn't given a good early education!"

 

[Foxhunter49]

A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel.

These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses.

 

[Tnavas]

A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel.

These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses.

Totally agree - you may have one or two that respond to the soft touch but when you've worked with 100's of horses you know full well that most misbehave because their owners are wet blankets around them and have allowed the behaviour.

Horses learn by repetition - good or bad habits both learned in the same way!

 

[lastchancer]

A heck of a lot of people on this forum think that to let it work out its own problem or to correct it with anything but a pat, cooing to it or rewarding it with a pat or food, is cruel.

These people have little experience with a range of horses, problems and have not seen the dangers of bargy, ill mannered horses.

Quite - but if thats the case then they won't know the potential consequences of tying something up to a solid object (or worse still a loose gate) that does not tie well...
FWIW I wouldn't entertain anything until it could be tied up reliably but a messed up, full grown horse does need to be handled with a bit more sympathy than a yearling.

 

[JillA]

Why?

Two words - broken neck. I have known at least one and there is a so called trainer I know of who used to regularly tie young horses to a fixed stanchion. One or two horses disappeared unaccountably.