Dunne v Frost

splashgirl45

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 March 2010
Messages
11,387
Location
suffolk
i agree with a lot of the article but find the willy waggling excuse a bit lame. BUT the female jockeys should have had a proper changing room with their own valets a long time ago and maybe things wouldnt have gone so far if they had. i agree that the way they have settled this is not good for either of them and i feel the punishment will alienate the other jockeys even more and bryony will continue to have a lonely time. its interesting that the other female jockeys didnt feel able to empathise with what she had to go through. its no good saying it never happened to them., quite a few of them are going out with or married to jockeys so they would be unlikely to get the same abuse but surely they could understand how it might affect someone. the whole thing is a mess..
 

honetpot

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2010
Messages
7,485
Location
Cambridgeshire

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
13,525
Location
Northern Ireland
Surely a culture of 'what happens in the weighing room, stays in the weighing room' doesnt exactly make for transparency or for a culture of care of employees? I get what the author in the medium piece is getting at, but its 2021, waving your dick at people hasnt been acceptable for a while now..
That sort of culture simply perpetuates the problem and is basically telling everyone that they have to put up with it or leave.
 

ycbm

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
41,176
Well, perhaps PJA have realised it's not a good look.
Jockeys’ union chief accepts Bryony Frost was bullied by Robbie Dunne | Horse racing | The Guardian
In my profession if you go to your professional representative body for support, against another member, they each a separate support team in any action. I just think it shows how unprofessional they are, that they hadn't thought the whole process through.
I think it also shows that this has happened so rarely that they don't know how to handle it. And for me, in a sport this big with such tensions running through it just by its very nature, that speaks volumes about how people probably just leave when there is no means of complaining and no support if they try.
.
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
41,108
He’s a victim of his own actions .
Many men will have grown up in the system exactly as he did and did not behave as he did .
He will have to accept his own behaviour was way over the line not just a mistake that most people make from time to time in their relationships with others to move on .
I hope he can and some of sort reconciliation process can be brokered between Bf and RD as that would make the workplace issues easier to manage going on .
 

Keep Trying

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 May 2010
Messages
120
This has happened because Robbie Dunne is a bully. If his career is over then he has orchestrated his own demise. If he is so well liked in the Weighing Room, then why have his friends stood back and allowed him to rampage along his path of destruction? Maybe, in his competitive world, they are not really his friends after all?

The term ‘rancid’ has been taken out of context and seized upon by the jockeys, seemingly, in an attempt to deflect the attention away from the real problem. This response and the reported backlash from the jockey community, portrays an image of a group that has segregated itself from reality and is unwilling or unable to accept its failings. If this is their mindset then, for me, it reinforces the findings of the disciplinary panel as correct.

Yes, there has been failings by the BHA and issues raised should have been addressed as soon as practicable but there are also failings by the PJA. For any productive progression to occur, the PJA must learn to accept that their opinions are not always the best way forwards and demonstrate a willingness to meet their counterparts halfway.
 

NinjaPony

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 March 2011
Messages
2,172
As ever, it appears that there is more outcry about the image of the sport rather than the actions that resulted in this tarnished image. If the offended parties were half as concerned about the real damage done to Frost as they are about the perceived slight to themselves, then the sport wouldn’t be in this position one feels. It’s incredibly dismissive to ignore the huge personal cost to Frost and others like her in order to write defensive statements that diminish the seriousness of what has happened. Tale as old as time unfortunately.
 

Fred66

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 February 2017
Messages
1,882
Surely a culture of 'what happens in the weighing room, stays in the weighing room' doesnt exactly make for transparency or for a culture of care of employees? I get what the author in the medium piece is getting at, but its 2021, waving your dick at people hasnt been acceptable for a while now..
If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then I think the outcry would have been heard sooner. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?
 

ycbm

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
41,176
If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then I think the outcry would have been heard sooner. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?
Have the men complained? I doubt it, because they are so much in a majority it would have been sorted if they had.

Are you another one questioning why women feel more threatened by naked men than men are by naked women?

It beggars belief, some of the reaction on this thread, from women.
.
 

Renvers

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2009
Messages
1,037
She goes on to specifically say that he is a victim of his upbringing, and the blokes he associates with.

And then to say that BF will forever be known as the woman who ruined his career.

He did that himself.
Although she does go onto state a connection with Dunne through her partner and their mutual connection to Liam Treadwell which made me wonder how impartial she can really be on the subject or how much she is exposed to that culture in the people she associates with.

In my career I have seen a number of women who have some form of Stockholm syndrome and are either apologists for toxic male behaviour (like someone earlier in this thread seemed to be) or antagonistic towards women who did the brave thing and challenged it. So sad and however much he is the "victim of circumstance" we can choose how we act and this man chose not to be mature, polite or act with integrity towards a colleague and got called out.
 

honetpot

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2010
Messages
7,485
Location
Cambridgeshire
If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then I think the outcry would have been heard sooner. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?
Do you not think for some men, not all,its a bit of a frisson, also an unspoken challenge, you are working in a male dominated sport, so you have to man up. There may also be an aspect of sledging going on. I admire her even more, you want to do the best every time you ride, and you start off at a disadvantage.
In my job I have seen a lot of men without their clouts on, young and old, and I can tell you with five seconds which ones there could be problems with.
We are focusing on BF, but this could also have happened to a young lad, we have heard a lot of testimonies from young men how they have been pressured, particularly in football, and been unable to speak out, due to the culture. There should be processes in place that protect everyone from bullying.
 

Fred66

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 February 2017
Messages
1,882
Have the men complained? I doubt it, because they are so much in a majority it would have been sorted if they had.

Are you another one questioning why women feel more threatened by naked men than men are by naked women?

It beggars belief, some of the reaction on this thread, from women.
.
I find the double standards on this thread slightly nauseating. On the one hand you want the culture brought forward to the 21st century and for the boys will be boys attitude to be consigned to the past to be inclusive to women and then on the other that’s the reason men aren’t offered the same level of protection. Do you not think that some men are just as self conscious and feel intimidated but due to outdated culture feel obliged to put on a brave front ?
Many men are totally confused by what is expected of them, what they were brought up to believe has changed, they are meant to treat everyone the same, but if they do then half the time that’s wrong too.
The article “the awkward truth” hits the nail on the head, an 18 month ban with 12 months of it suspended and anger management and diversity awareness training would have been a more appropriate remedy. The BHA and PJA should also have worked together to resolve the circumstances in which it was allowed to get this far.
The outcome will divide the racing world and whilst publically many will take the PC route of supporting Frost privately I think she could find herself even more isolated. They will be wary in their contact (there but for the grace of god ….. etc), she may have hoped that the closure of the case would draw a line but personally I doubt it.
From what I’ve heard whilst many think he was wrong and deserved some level of reprimand they also feel he has been scapegoated.
 
Last edited:

honetpot

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2010
Messages
7,485
Location
Cambridgeshire
Do you not think that some men are just as self conscious and feel intimidated but due to outdated culture feel obliged to put on a brave front ?
So that this means that it is all the more important that code of conduct, processes for questioning and if necessary, a complaints procedure be put in place, that anyone can use.
The first thing I would be thinking about was some sort of anonymous feedback form to bring out issues that may be a problem.
 

Peglo

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 June 2021
Messages
411
Just caught up with this thread. So many great comments of support for BF. Couldn’t like them all without being annoying.

I felt bullied at work but nowhere near as bad as BF. I was made to feel stupid, pathetic and targeted. I was 17 and the guy was much older, been there a long time and well liked. It wasn’t anything big but constant digs and trying to get people to laugh at me. Little things like picking up a tampon i’d dropped and wafting it around the room of men asking who’s it was. When I said ‘It’s obviously mine’ completely embarrassed but trying to be strong I got the ‘woah, calm down!’ look at the crazy girl reaction from him. Just little things like that. I was miserable. And no one stuck up for me, the same way all these jockeys, valet’s etc are saying they never seen any bullying or was ever bullied themselves. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

I’ve almost always worked with the majority of the workforce being men and I get on well with them. I enjoy the actual banter when your part of the joke and give as good as I get but being the joke is completely different. Maybe it’s hard to distinguish unless you’ve been in the situation.

I’m not innocent either. I have lacked sympathy for someone I haven’t liked, much like elf. Fortunately my sister or friends will call me out on it and make me see the bigger picture. In this case the judge has spoken and regardless of what BF is like, Dunne has been found guilty so I find it pretty shocking people are making BF the ‘bad guy’ and Dunne a victim.

I admire Bryony Frost for sticking up for herself and hopefully her actions will encourage others to stick up for themselves and make bystanders wake up and speak out too.
 

Rowreach

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 May 2007
Messages
13,525
Location
Northern Ireland
I find the double standards on this thread slightly nauseating. On the one hand you want the culture brought forward to the 21st century and for the boys will be boys attitude to be consigned to the past to be inclusive to women and then on the other that’s the reason men aren’t offered the same level of protection. Do you not think that some men are just as self conscious and feel intimidated but due to outdated culture feel obliged to put on a brave front ?
Many men are totally confused by what is expected of them, what they were brought up to believe has changed, they are meant to treat everyone the same, but if they do then half the time that’s wrong too.
The article “the awkward truth” hits the nail on the head, an 18 month ban with 12 months of it suspended and anger management and diversity awareness training would have been a more appropriate remedy. The BHA and PJA should also have worked together to resolve the circumstances in which it was allowed to get this far.
The outcome will divide the racing world and whilst publically many will take the PC route of supporting Frost privately I think she could find herself even more isolated. They will be wary in their contact (there but for the grace of god ….. etc), she may have hoped that the closure of the case would draw a line but personally I doubt it.
From what I’ve heard whilst many think he was wrong and deserved some level of reprimand they also feel he has been scapegoated.
You are forgetting that Dunne was safely covered up with his towel before choosing to drop it and wave his bits at Bryony. If he was that concerned with his own modesty he'd have kept his boxers on and his towel up.

As for being "scapegoated", did you read what the inquiry found, not only about his previous behaviour but his behaviour in front of the panel? Maybe if he'd shown more respect for the system and an iota of remorse they would have given him a choice of penalty. He got what he deserved. And the whole definition of "making an example" of someone isn't about giving them an overly harsh punishment, it's about giving them a suitable punishment for the offence committed with the aim of showing anyone else who maybe heading down that road a bit of a wake up call.
 

Renvers

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2009
Messages
1,037
You are forgetting that Dunne was safely covered up with his towel before choosing to drop it and wave his bits at Bryony. If he was that concerned with his own modesty he'd have kept his boxers on and his towel up.
I don't want to dismiss this very serious and important discussion or the impact it had on Frost to be in this situation. But all I can imagine is pointing, laughing and asking if he is feeling the cold...
 

stangs

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 September 2021
Messages
620
I don't want to dismiss this very serious and important discussion or the impact it had on Frost to be in this situation. But all I can imagine is pointing, laughing and asking if he is feeling the cold...
Sometimes, just sometimes, people aren't capable of coming up with witty responses when being sexually harassed.

I've had my fair share of threatening catcalls, drunk men stopping me from walking past, getting grinded on on the train. My initial response every time is to freeze and go on high alert. You'd think that I'd be used to it enough to come up with a sarcastic comment or something, but the response remains the same. I presume BF felt the same. And, arguably, making a humorous comment could put her in an even worse position.
 

Mule

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 October 2016
Messages
7,461
As a little bit of light hearted relief I did get a giggle when I saw the photo of Dunne and his lawyer en route to the hearing both decked out in pink. Presumably to give the impression of being in touch with their feminine sides or show solidarity with their female colleagues who of course all love pink..... The lengths lawyers will go to to try to influence proceedings in a subliminal manner does make me chuckle. I very much doubt the QC was been taken in at all.

As for Dunne being made an example of. Having worked in a very patriarchal environment which has gradually reformed over the last 20 years it's unfortunate but the culture did not change by generalised directives to all employees it was only by the disciplining of the worst offender's that others were forced to examine their own actions and attitudes.
I thought the same about his pink clothes 🤣
 

SO1

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 January 2008
Messages
4,819
This should never have been deemed ok.

Not all men would feel comfortable with women seeing them naked and women may feel uncomfortable seeing men naked. Would there ever be a scenario in any other work place where it would be impossible to do your job without the risk of one of your colleagues of the opposite sex seeing you naked or seeing another colleague naked.

I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?
 

splashgirl45

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 March 2010
Messages
11,387
Location
suffolk
That is the fault of the people running the racing. Facilities should be made available to each sex with access to valets for both without having to go into each other’s changing rooms. Once female jockeys started competing they should have provided this., there is enough money in racing so no excuse IMO
 

Red-1

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 February 2013
Messages
13,162
Location
Recently bought into cob culture.
That is the fault of the people running the racing. Facilities should be made available to each sex with access to valets for both without having to go into each other’s changing rooms. Once female jockeys started competing they should have provided this., there is enough money in racing so no excuse IMO
These days, that wouldn't be enough either. There should be a move towards cubicles, so changing areas can accommodate people of all gender identities. It is the way of current thinking. Inclusive to everyone. Everyone has privacy.
 

paddi22

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2010
Messages
5,833
I don't want to dismiss this very serious and important discussion or the impact it had on Frost to be in this situation. But all I can imagine is pointing, laughing and asking if he is feeling the cold...
you are totally dismissing it though. now not only are you expecting a woman to accept and enable abuse, you are also expecting her to turn into an ad- lib witty comedian... I honestly have no words... and do you really think a man who called her a 'f*cking slut' in front of people is just going to back down and say 'oh what a sassy remark, that put me in my place and I won't do that again'? I wasn't aware womens humour could put a stop to mens bad behaviour.

I think women's automatic reaction is the blame the victim because if the victim acted incorrectly, then it wouldn't happen to you, because you know the right way to act and you'd be 'safe', you can kid yourself it wouldn't happen to you and you are OK.

But I can tell you exactly what would happen if she'd reacted like you suggested. The behaviour would naturally have escalated (because why not, no one pulled him up) and when it went to a tribunal later on everyone would have defended him by saying 'sure, she thought it was funny? we were all laughing and joking about it at the time'. and then she wouldn\'t have had a leg to stand on.

the reaction to a man abusing you isn't to have to come up instantly with a suitable cutting remark, despite your shock, embarrassment and stress. the solution is to have a culture when you know ANYONE can be pulled up for bad behaviour and the system supports you.
 
Last edited:
Top