Dunne v Frost

[ycbm]

Why can people not have opinions/ observations which might conflict with the majority? It is a worrying trend. .

They can. I often do. You just have to accept that you are in a minority, unless you can come up with a more persuasive argument.

ETA being in a minority doesn't mean you are wrong, (though it does make it more likely), it just means you have not managed to convince others of your argument. Either way, that should give the person in the minority pause for thought.
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[Shilasdair]

OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.

I haven't worked in racing but I can tell you what I did in as a student.
I studied a subject at Masters level, in a cohort of around 55 students, maybe 30 men to 25 women. I was around Frost's age at the time - 25 or so.
I finished the Pg Dip (and won the Course Medal for being the top student - this is relevant).
I then chose my Masters dissertation subject (60 credits worth) and booked my first tutorial with my tutor (we only were assigned one).
In my first meeting he said 'I don't think you should do this, it's far too difficult for a woman, it would be different if you were a bloke but a woman won't manage this'.
We were not allowed to change tutor. I went home, and didn't know what to do.
He'd told me I couldn't do it - and we HAD to do it through our tutor, even submitting the final draft to them.
And then, a fellow livery who happened to be a lecturer at Stirling Uni said 'Do it without him!'.
So I did. I got permission to submit it to the Faculty Office rather than him. I put in a complaint about his behaviour. I did my MSc dissertation entirely on my own. I did well, I got the course medal for the dissertation.

But then, dear readers, I FORMALLY WITHDREW MY COMPLAINT. I wanted a reference, I wanted a peaceful life.
I regret my decision to this day - and the git is still 'lecturing' hapless women at the University.

 

[ozpoz]

They can. I often do. You just have to accept that you are in a minority, unless you can come up with a more persuasive argument.

ETA being in a minority doesn't mean you are wrong, (though it does make it more likely), it just means you have not managed to convince others of your argument. Either way, that should give the person in the minority pause for thought.
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I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong ?
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.

 

[minesadouble]

I haven't read the full transcript, I don't even know if it is available. But with regard to the willy incident, if you're going into a male changing room you're probably going to see a penis! Maybe Dunne 'shook himself' at her because he felt affronted by her presence.
Imagine we all compete in a female dominated sport and we all freely dress/undress and strip naked in the changing room then all of a sudden men start legitimately wandering in? I think there would be an outrage, I'm not quite sure why it's different for men?

 

[bonny]

I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong ?
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.

There was six days of evidence, what do you think everybody else has missed?

 

[ycbm]

I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong ?
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.

It was clear cut enough for a panel of 3 independent lawyers after a 6 day hearing. That's good enough for me.
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[Pearlsasinger]

I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong ?
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.

Whereas, because of my background, I look at it from the pov 'Is this acceptable behaviour in the workplace?' And the answer is a resounding 'NO!' Would there have been any discussion about it's acceptability in any other workplace? Of course not - and not just because most workplaces don't have changing rooms. Just imagine if, in a clothes shop, one of the assistants started exposing himself to a colleague. If a customer did that, security would be straight in and the police called.

 

[ycbm]

Imagine we all compete in a female dominated sport and we all freely dress/undress and strip naked in the changing room then all of a sudden men start legitimately wandering in? I think there would be an outrage, I'm not quite sure why it's different for men?

All of a sudden? There have been female jockies for a very long time now. If the men were affronted by women being FORCED to use valets in their changing area they, being the vast majority, had the power to get it changed. The women, I understand, tried and have failed. Decent men would have been insisting it was changed, for the sake of both sexes/genders when the first female jockey was allowed to race.
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[minesadouble]

All of a sudden? There have been female jockies for a very long time now. If the men were affronted by women being FORCED to use valets in their changing area they, being the majority, had the power to get it changed. The women, I understand, tried and have failed. Decent men would have been insisting it was changed long ago.
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OK then, not 'all of a sudden' but imagine if men were, in any circumstance, permitted to enter a female changing area? There would be an absolute outrage. Is this because we women are so delicate we can't hear to be seen naked by the opposite sex and men are so tough they are expected to be happy to deal with it? If we are talking about equality we have a long way to go and need to recognise it works both ways.

 

[ycbm]

OK then, not 'all of a sudden' but imagine if men were, in any circumstance, permitted to enter a female changing area? There would be an absolute outrage. Is this because we women are so delicate we can't hear to be seen naked by the opposite sex and men are so tough they are expected to be happy to deal with it? If we are talking about equality we have a long way to go and need to recognise it works both ways.

They women weren't "permitted" to go into the male changing area, they were forced! They couldn't race if they didn't. The men had every opportunity to refuse to accept it, and that's exactly what they should have done.

Why didn't they?
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[ycbm]

Minesadouble are you questioning why women are more afraid of unwanted sexual attention/ violence from men than men are from women? It sounds like it.
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[SaddlePsych'D]

I haven't read the full transcript, I don't even know if it is available. But with regard to the willy incident, if you're going into a male changing room you're probably going to see a penis! Maybe Dunne 'shook himself' at her because he felt affronted by her presence.

Just catching up on this thread but...wow...if you're "affronted by someone's presence" surely there are some steps before you get to take before resorting to waving your genitals around at them?!

 

[minesadouble]

Minesadouble are you questioning why women are more afraid of unwanted sexual attention/ violence from men than men are from women? It sounds like it.
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I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?

 

[bonny]

I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?

I think you are missing the point, I have never heard a female jockey saying she had a problem with the set up, including Bryony frost. It’s what Robbie Dunne did to her that she objected to and I highly doubt that was normal behaviour by the male jockeys.

 

[Goldenstar]

OK then, not 'all of a sudden' but imagine if men were, in any circumstance, permitted to enter a female changing area? There would be an absolute outrage. Is this because we women are so delicate we can't hear to be seen naked by the opposite sex and men are so tough they are expected to be happy to deal with it? If we are talking about equality we have a long way to go and need to recognise it works both ways.

Woman had no choice but to enter the weighting room to do their job .Dunne had no right to be affronted by her presence .
As I said further up the thread this those running the racecourses needed to rethink and reorganise the whole valet /changing room situation earlier .
But that does not change the fact that those independently looking at the facts had no trouble in deciding that the Willy incident was an aggressive act .
Bullying in the work place is not ever acceptable .Those running racing have a duty of care in law in respect of this .
It was not BF’s fault that the organisation of the sport was behind the curve in sorting this changing weighting valet situation .
But Dunne was in control of his actions if he had behaved well he would not be in this situation .

 

[DiNozzo]

I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?

Even if Dunne did have an issue (which he’d be well within his rights to have), the answer would be to campaign formally within the structures that exist.

He does NOT EVER have the right to do what he did to Frost.

Anyone who defends that sort of behaviour needs to take a long look at why they think that. It is NEVER okay to be abusive.

ETA: have edited because I was unaware of the connotations of the word I used previously. My apologies to anyone I upset or insulted with that word.

 

[ycbm]

I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?

Are you seriously asking why women may be more concerned about being in an area with naked men in it than men (who may be naked or covered by choice) are concerned about being in an area with clothed women in it?

Are you for real?
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[Rowreach]

I’ve been reading the comments on and off today and I find the attitudes of some to be utterly disheartening.

From my own actual experiences of bullying in the workplace (twice by the same person with a two year gap) and the work I now do supporting women in coaching going through the same thing, I know far more about the subject than I would like.

Serial bullies don’t pick on the weakest. That’s no fun, no challenge, and doesn’t get the laughs. They pick on the ones who are tough, often not particularly popular with their peers (therefore lacking immediate backup) - ring any bells? - and they wear them down. Their mates also think the target is tough and can take it, so they do nothing to stop it and when it gets too uncomfortable, it’s too late, so they act like it’s just a bit of banter and the way it’s always been. The MO usually includes being very nice to other colleagues so that they can’t imagine what the victim can possibly mean when they call out the behaviour. Hence the “I never experienced any bullying” comments from others.

What the inquiry found (for those of you who cba to read any of the reports yet still want to air your views) is that Dunne mounted a campaign of targeted bullying against Frost over a 7 month period.

So it’s not about kicking off in the heat of the moment, it’s not about “accidentally” dropping a towel in a changing room, it’s about a grown up man abusing and threatening an individual in the workplace with the intent to cause maximum distress (and to make himself feel like a big important person).

I find it incredibly sad that there are people (women) on here who have so little empathy or respect for someone who has had the strength and perseverance to call Dunne out, deal with all the vitriol, and still be doing her job, riding multiple winners, and not revelling in the vindication of the inquiry findings but just wanting to crack on and ride racehorses.

 

[ycbm]

I’ve been reading the comments on and off today and I find the attitudes of some to be utterly disheartening.

From my own actual experiences of bullying in the workplace (twice by the same person with a two year gap) and the work I now do supporting women in coaching going through the same thing, I know far more about the subject than I would like.

Serial bullies don’t pick on the weakest. That’s no fun, no challenge, and doesn’t get the laughs. They pick on the ones who are tough, often not particularly popular with their peers (therefore lacking immediate backup) - ring any bells? - and they wear them down. Their mates also think the target is tough and can take it, so they do nothing to stop it and when it gets too uncomfortable, it’s too late, so they act like it’s just a bit of banter and the way it’s always been. The MO usually includes being very nice to other colleagues so that they can’t imagine what the victim can possibly mean when they call out the behaviour. Hence the “I never experienced any bullying” comments from others.

What the inquiry found (for those of you who cba to read any of the reports yet still want to air your views) is that Dunne mounted a campaign of targeted bullying against Frost over a 7 month period.

So it’s not about kicking off in the heat of the moment, it’s not about “accidentally” dropping a towel in a changing room, it’s about a grown up man abusing and threatening an individual in the workplace with the intent to cause maximum distress (and to make himself feel like a big important person).

I find it incredibly sad that there are people (women) on here who have so little empathy or respect for someone who has had the strength and perseverance to call Dunne out, deal with all the vitriol, and still be doing her job, riding multiple winners, and not revelling in the vindication of the inquiry findings but just wanting to crack on and ride racehorses.

Well said. I think I'm pretty well known for supporting men against what i perceive to be undue criticism on this forum, but it's very depressing to read this thread, RR.
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[Goldenstar]

Even if Dunne did have an issue (which he’d be well within his rights to have), the answer would be to campaign formally within the structures that exist.

He does NOT EVER have the right to do what he did to Frost.

Anyone who defends that sort of behaviour is an absolute cretin. It is NEVER okay to be abusive.

Please don’t call someone a cretin it’s unfair to those who are born with the condition.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Even if Dunne did have an issue (which he’d be well within his rights to have), the answer would be to campaign formally within the structures that exist.

He does NOT EVER have the right to do what he did to Frost.

Anyone who defends that sort of behaviour is an absolute cretin. It is NEVER okay to be abusive.

You might want to edit this, especially given what you said about it never being ok to be abusive

 

[Flicker]

From my own experience of being bullied by a man, in a male-dominated environment, so much of what BF reported resonates.
I recognised the behaviour of a male who, for whatever reason and I really don’t care what his reason was, chose to target me for ridicule, condescension and rudeness. To other women we worked with he was a cheeky, charming chap who made them laugh. It was very difficult to demonstrate how his treatment of me was different, but his barbs were sharper, his put-downs crueller and when there was nobody to witness the conversation he was downright abusive. He once told me to ‘do your *&^%$£@ job, if you are even capable of doing that’.
I did challenge him. Once. He’d levelled a particularly nasty and sarcastic comment to me in the form of a joke, in front of colleagues. I asked him to please stop with the comments and leave me alone. He told me I was being over-sensitive and hysterical.
I also recognise being told by the CEO of the company that the ‘banter’ was just part of the culture of the organisation and it was my problem if I was upset by it. Perhaps, he suggested, I was just a bit uptight and maybe we did things differently in South Africa. Anyway, he didn’t want me changing things to where people were afraid to be ‘spontaneous’.
When I finally left the company, I told him on my leaving do that part of the reason for leaving was him. He tried to tell me that it was nothing personal, and the girl from the company he was seeing at the time told me that I had just misunderstood his humour and he was, really, ’a real softie’.
With behaviour like this, where the institution is stacked in favour of one particular demographic of employee, you really don’t stand a chance. However you try to address the issue or deal with the behaviour, you will lose.
I think BF has been incredibly brave.
The only good that can now come of this very unedifying spectacle is for the industry to sit down and take a long hard look at why it has found itself in the news a lot in recent months for all the wrong reasons. It is clear that there is a real culture shift needed.

 

[DiNozzo]

Please don’t call someone a [] it’s unfair to those who are born with the condition.

You might want to edit this, especially given what you said about it never being ok to be abusive

Have done. Apologies, I was unaware of the connotations of the word.

 

[ester]

Aarghhh that is not what she is saying!
Why can people not have opinions/ observations which might conflict with the majority? It is a worrying trend. .

Ermm it was a genuine question sincerely meant because it seemed like the question previoulsy posed had not been answered just skirted around it so I was requesting clarification that wasn't then given. I was requesting their opinion not saying they can't have it?! (albeit a few days ago now)

Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?

 

[neddy man]

I have just had another look at his go fund me page (now £2.5k) and the comments are ridiculous, especially one about windmilling that sounds like his towel less wriggle, he got what he deserved.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I’ve been reading the comments on and off today and I find the attitudes of some to be utterly disheartening.

From my own actual experiences of bullying in the workplace (twice by the same person with a two year gap) and the work I now do supporting women in coaching going through the same thing, I know far more about the subject than I would like.

Serial bullies don’t pick on the weakest. That’s no fun, no challenge, and doesn’t get the laughs. They pick on the ones who are tough, often not particularly popular with their peers (therefore lacking immediate backup) - ring any bells? - and they wear them down. Their mates also think the target is tough and can take it, so they do nothing to stop it and when it gets too uncomfortable, it’s too late, so they act like it’s just a bit of banter and the way it’s always been. The MO usually includes being very nice to other colleagues so that they can’t imagine what the victim can possibly mean when they call out the behaviour. Hence the “I never experienced any bullying” comments from others.

What the inquiry found (for those of you who cba to read any of the reports yet still want to air your views) is that Dunne mounted a campaign of targeted bullying against Frost over a 7 month period.

So it’s not about kicking off in the heat of the moment, it’s not about “accidentally” dropping a towel in a changing room, it’s about a grown up man abusing and threatening an individual in the workplace with the intent to cause maximum distress (and to make himself feel like a big important person).

I find it incredibly sad that there are people (women) on here who have so little empathy or respect for someone who has had the strength and perseverance to call Dunne out, deal with all the vitriol, and still be doing her job, riding multiple winners, and not revelling in the vindication of the inquiry findings but just wanting to crack on and ride racehorses.

thank you Rowreach, so sick of those who are victims of bullying being seen as weak, or not being able to stand up for themselves-it’s utter bull.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Well said. I think I'm pretty well known for supporting men against what i perceive to be undue criticism on this forum, but it's very depressing to read this thread, RR.
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Me too. I'm very comfortable around blokes, and have copped some criticism in the past for saying that I have never personally felt threatened by a male presence, but some of the views spouted by females on this thread are so .

Racing needs to step up and own and address the issues in its ranks, not dismiss them.

 

[Berpisc]

Ermm it was a genuine question sincerely meant because it seemed like the question previoulsy posed had not been answered just skirted around it so I was requesting clarification that wasn't then given. I was requesting their opinion not saying they can't have it?! (albeit a few days ago now)

Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?

Sadly some people get a buzz out of it I think, or the feeling of power it gives them. Not a pleasant trait at all.

 

[Goldenstar]

Ermm it was a genuine question sincerely meant because it seemed like the question previoulsy posed had not been answered just skirted around it so I was requesting clarification that wasn't then given. I was requesting their opinion not saying they can't have it?! (albeit a few days ago now)

Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?

It’s is about power , and this case I do think the fact that BF is a woman was a factor in her being chosen as Dunnes target.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?

It gives some people with low self-esteem a feeling of power over others, particularly those they see as strong in some way. Unfortunately there are people who are only happy when they bring other people down. They measure their self-worth against other people's misery. It's quite sad, really but it doesn't make bullying behaviour acceptable.