duty of care as a yard manager or interferring??

[charlie76]

We have a couple of horses on our yard that are not always attended to in what I believe to be the correct way. One horse is not attended to until about 12pm, it then goes out until 3pm where it is put to bed with 2 slices of hay, 1 bucket of water( both of which are gone by 5pm) , not groomed, rugs not adjusted and not hoofpicked, it also has it tools left in the stable with it. It is then not seen again until about 12pm the next day. The owner had gone bonkers this morning as the yard staff have been giving the horse hay and water if there is no sign of the owner by about ten am.
Second horse, has not left its stable for 2 weeks other than 1 hrs exercise a week ago,again owner does not come up until lunch time then puts the horse to bed at 3pm. It is often left with no water and no hay and has no bed whatsoever, just wet mush. Yesterday it fell over three times in its box due to lack of bedding and a puddle of wee, the yard staff mucked the horse out and gave the horse more bed, hay and water- again, owner has gone bonkers.
So, what would you do- leave the horse to suffer or sort the horse out and face the owners anger??
Both horses are on DIY livery. The yard is a commercial yard with lots of public so the rest of the horses are kept to ahigh standard.
Both owners have been spoken to about the horses.

 

[trendybraincell]

Is there a contract with these liveries?

 

[charlie76]

yes, quite an extensive one, tried talking to them but you get know where, they think they are right.

 

[Django Pony]

Duty of care I'd say. As long as they had a word with the owner had explained why they were doing it and that it would not be acceptable for them to have to do it again.

 

[LittleBlackMule]

That is just neglect plain and simple, and the owner's overreaction to your help shows a guilty conscience!

Tricky one, as the horses really need your "interference", but I would be worried about the owner taking them away where they could continue to be neglected without someone to keep an eye out.

 

[trendybraincell]

yes, quite an extensive one, tried talking to them but you get know where, they think they are right.

In that case its very dependant upon how the contract is worded. I imagine if they are DIY it would state the horse should be cared for solely by the owner, if they are not doing this then they are in violation of the contract and should therefore be asked to leave.

I know you don't want to see the horses suffer but in my experience you cannot help in that sort of situation as the owners simply will not be told

 

[tallyho!]

^^^^^^
Yes neglectful. I'm horrified to read that. The horses should be taken off them and sold on if the law would allow such a thing. I hate to think they'd be moved and the same thing happen all over again somewhere else.

 

[Seahorse]

It makes you wonder about some people!
A girl at my yard doesn't get there until about 12, her horse has no feed or hay left for him, despite myself and others offering to at least feed and hay him for her. He wears loads of rugs so is often sweating and hot, and he weaves all morning too and is opposite my stable so I have to look at him doing it all morning

However if someone dares to give him hay or god forbid take a rug off or turn his neck cover down at least when she turns up she starts moaning about people interfering and how it's terrible and she's going to leave!!
The yard manager has spoken to her loads of times and all she says is he's fine...

 

[Supertrooper]

It absolutely astounds me that people can have horses, or any other animal and care (I use that word loosely) for them in this way!! It makes me so angry , the horse didn't ask to be brought by that person

It's such a tricky situation and having been on yards where this has happened and we've called world horse welfare, they have said that it is the livery yard owner that needs to ensure that horse is cared for correctly ie provide food and water. This was a horse though that the owner didn't come up to at all.

I think I'd have a strong word with the owners, advising that if they arn't up by say 9am then the yard will provide care for horses but owners will be charged. Perhaps the thought of having to spend extra pennies may make them come up earlier!!

 

[jaypeebee]

Hit them in their wallet. Charge them for the extra care you give each and every time. Tell them it is not acceptable and they have 3 options. Look after the horses properly. Pay you for doing it. Leave.

 

[devilwoman]

They sound like wonderful owners compared to the other livery on my yard, theres only 2 of us and it kills me to watch her horses, they sometimes don't get done every day, if they do its not until at least 1 p.m. - they havent' been outside their stables for four weeks now and very rarely have hay, never get mucked out, always standing knee deep in *****, if they have water its usually like ditch water or nothing at all, she has a little Section A who seems to have given up and just stands there depressed and a Welsh D gelding who creates/kicks the walls/crib bites/bucks/squeels etc, sometimes he is that thirsty he neighs to /me and kics the door when i'm doing my girls water, I always give him water but dont have access to her hay so can't give him that otherwise I would !! i have had an argument with her in the past over their care and told her they are little more than RSPCA cases but she is feral herself so wasn't interested just swore and threatend me, i've spoken to YO but she is not interested and just says I should keep myself to myself which is fine when she is over the other side of the farm, it's me that is in the block of 4 stables with her and has to see the neglect every day.

 

[amandap]

If there is no contract for them to be fed and watered later then I'd threaten them with WHW or RSPCA! One horse seems to be left without feed and water for 17 hours everyday! I'm horrified! The other left with no bedding and similarly left without food and water is also horrifying!

Brings a new meaning to 'out of sight out of mind'!
I think YO's do/should have a duty of care.

 

[CBFan]

I would give them a week to change their ways and start treating their animals properly - food and water being the basic requirements otherwise you are giving them 2 weeks to get off your yard.

I know one y/o who won't allow 'deep litter' in order to ensure all beds are mucked out fully, daily... and all horses are fed together... again to make sure they are fed in a timely manner on a daily basis... this is done by the first person at the yard in the morning and the last in the evening...

It shouldn't be up to you to look after these horses as you are but I can see totally why you are doing it. I wouldn't stand for it..

 

[charlie76]

we have resorted to doing them this week and they have been charged for the goods/services which both then complained about. I am going alter the contract to add in the bit about being here before 10am. One of the owners actually forgot the horse last week, she remembered at gone 11pm and came to sort him out at almost midnight! I know that people think that I am fussy but its getting beyond a joke.

 

[MegaBeast]

I know that people think that I am fussy but its getting beyond a joke.

I wouldn't call that being fussy!

 

[jaypeebee]

Can you tell people when to come and do their horses? I wouldnt. The time they come isnt relevant so long as horses always have hay and water available and bed cleaned out once a day. Some people work antisocial hours or have other things to do.

 

[FairyLights]

Hit them in their wallet. Charge them for the extra care you give each and every time. Tell them it is not acceptable and they have 3 options. Look after the horses properly. Pay you for doing it. Leave.

I agree totally. The way the horses are bring kept is not acceptable.

 

[Rose Folly]

Taking up Jaypeebee's pint, I don't think the time the wretched people come is so relevant ast the gaps between attention. I know people who 'put their horse to bed' at 4pm and then aren't there until 10am next morning - i.e. 18 hours without attention, and if the horse kicks its water buckt over in the first few minutes, well tough.

I always tell my liveries I will feed, water and hay, so that the horses are fed at sensible periods and in a routine. A yard near me has 'stable times' of 3 hours in the morning and 3 at night during which horses must be fed, hayed,mucked out etc., but then I guess bad liveries would just not turn up. What a bummer for you - and heaven help the poor horses.

 

[MosMum]

This may sound bad but if it was me, I would continue to sort the horses out every day by 10am BECAUSE it makes the owners so angry! I say this because eventually they will either move yards or start showing up at a decent hour.

If they were indifferent, I would handle it differently to avoid being taken advantage of, but as PP said, it sounds like these two have a conscience, showing up to a comfy horse, already fed with a clean bed should just be salt on the wounds

 

[TequilaMist]

Can you tell people when to come and do their horses? I wouldnt. The time they come isnt relevant so long as horses always have hay and water available and bed cleaned out once a day. Some people work antisocial hours or have other things to do.

I disagree, if you are a yard owner I think you have every right to tell liveries what you expect from them.Coming up once a day for a stabled horse on DIY is not acceptable imo esp if turned out during day.Do they think horse takes themselves in??I think if you can't get to horse you arrange for someone else to do it either as a favour or pay someone.
The fact that someone works awkward hours imo is irrelevant-I have done this as ex nurse.I got up extra early/paid someone/kept horse out.Go full livery at least horses needs are taken care of.
I would tell them take care of horses or leav- don't false bluff tho follow through with it.
Forgot to add charge them for every service as some folk will only take notice if costs them something

 

[reddie]

I agree with TM, horse that are stabled either all the tme or at night need to be seen to twice a day. If they can't get a friend to do it as a favour then they should pay someone to do the other time f they can't get up. When i had my boy, he was in at night during the winter. he was on diy, i couldn't get up at tea time to bring him when all the others came in, so I paid for him to be brought in. Simples!!

 

[Bosworth]

I as a yard owner turn out all the liveries in the morning, it is included in their contract so that I know they are all checked and turned out at a decent time. If they want their horses left in then they have to leave me a filled haynet for the horse. I will not leave a horse in without a net or water. The liveries can then come up once a day - in the evening and muck out, ride, groom feed etc. I always go out and check all the horses at about 10pm and if I find one without any hay or water I will top up. In my contract it states that the owners must come up at least once a day every day. If I have to carry out addtional services I will - and will charge the liveries for it. Under the Animal Welfare Act the Yard owner is legally responsible for all horses on the yard so it is up to you as the yard owner to ensure the horse is cared for correctly which means it has access to forage and water and if the owner is failing then it is your responsibility to ensure it happens. Yes they are DIY but that does not exclude them from the Act.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Hit them in their wallet. Charge them for the extra care you give each and every time. Tell them it is not acceptable and they have 3 options. Look after the horses properly. Pay you for doing it. Leave.

spot on.

I have in the contract that DIY liveries must arrive no later than 9am in the morning, they must also arrive/feed/arrange to feed after 3pm in winter time, preferably keeping an 8 hour space between feeding when possible.

Your yard, your choice, unfortunatley some will always take the pee - and then others wonder at the lengthening list you have in their arrival contract

 

[MrsHutt]

Under the Animal Welfare Act the Yard owner is legally responsible for all horses on the yard so it is up to you as the yard owner to ensure the horse is cared for correctly which means it has access to forage and water and if the owner is failing then it is your responsibility to ensure it happens. Yes they are DIY but that does not exclude them from the Act.

I wondered about that. I would find it difficult to see neglect right before my eyes, but I know you are on dodgy legal ground if you do anything as a 'member of the public'. I would think as a YO you can ask your liveries to abide by any 'rules' you might make and if they say they don't like it and will leave, well, good riddance! You can make allowance for people who work or have other commitments, of course. And charge for jobs done - as long as it is made clear that's what you'll do, no one can complain.

 

[juliette]

Hit them in their wallet. Charge them for the extra care you give each and every time. Tell them it is not acceptable and they have 3 options. Look after the horses properly. Pay you for doing it. Leave.

Totally agree with above.

 

[cariad]

Bosworth is correct about the Animals Welfare Act 2006. Whilst it doesn't say specifically that yard owners/managers are liable for horses welfare as much as the owner, it does have provision to prosecute someone who isn't the owner, but (without going into the technicalities) could and perhaps should have stepped in to prevent animal neglect and suffering. This is what happened in the Spindles Farm case. James Gray was liable as the owner and owners are always liable if neglect/ suffering is proved even if the animals are in the care of another or even not necessarily formally in the care of someone else, such as might be the case with a livery yard owner/manager even on a completely DIY yard. In the Gray case, the family were prosecuted because they failed to step in when the horses welfare was being compromised.

The difficulty is knowing at what point to step in and I am not aware of any case law on this specific point with liveries as yet; please correct me if I've missed something. Do you for instance wade in with all guns blazing on the first day of a new pony arriving with a history of laminitis and you see the owners, perhaps well meaning novices, feeding bucketfuls of food? Or do you just at that point try a discreet word? Or do you wait and wait, not wanting to interfere, or in the case of some non horsy YO's not realising there's anything wrong and risk being dragged in to a prosecution if the RSPCA get wind and successfully bring a case? There is no clear legal answer as yet, I don't think, but I also suspect each case would be fact specific anyway. One more thing for harassed YO's to think about!

 

[Bailey_Noxy]

Duty of care I would say. We have an almost identical problem with a livery on our yard. Although fortunately this horse lives out 24/7 so atleast gets to stretch its legs. But throughout the harsest winters the owner comes up once a day at about 8.00am, the horse gets the ice broken on the one trug of water and one slice of hay. Then nothing until the next day at 8.00. Although she is an ID and quite sturdy she just about wasted away last winter. It causes non stop problems when i'm feeding my own horses three times a day and the livery horse is galloping around, attempting to jump hedges and screeching. It got so bad last year, and this year we are having to feed it our hay at the same time we feed ours. Which although the owner hasnt said anything means precious and very expensive forage for my own horses is being given to a horse for free. The owner already pays next to nothing in livery fees so i find it very unfair that i'm having to feed the horse for free aswell, but i'm a horse person and i cannot stand by and watch it suffer!

 

[Luci07]

Charlie76 - I think your idea of adding it to the contract is the best way as you have tried the adult approach. I would be very clear in stating what is expected of the owners and by WHAT!! time, ie horse must be mucked out, fed, rugged, hayed and waterered by no later than 9am during week days, 10am at the weekend. Liveries who do not do this will be charged xxx. State that the charge WILL be higher if the livery has not made arrangements previously. If its in a contract, they can move if they don't like it or at least not complain if you then step in to look after the horses. I would make it more expensive if the help isn't booked in to stop people thinking its a way of getting cheap livery! and because staff are going to have to keep an eye out to check the horses as well.

 

[Lila]

Im not usually down to my boy till around 10ish and have to leave for 2.30.In this time he goes out, groomed (even if its just a flick off) is mucked out (huge bed) rugs taken off and everything done ready for the night. I get enough hay and water to last him till the next day when i get down (maybe a bit too much ) .
I have to do it like this due to work commitment. he doesnt get his tea till around 6.30 when his mates get there's and the girl who feeds him puts he's rug back on.
On my days of ill do him morning and night.

So do you think im wrong for doing this?

In the summer he usually lives out, but on the new yard he will go out from 8am till 9pm

 

[siennamum]

I think it would be a shame if these horses were moved to another yard, at least at the moment they do get cared for - by other people .
I would alter the contract and state that owners have to be at yard by 9.30 every day and horses have to be done, & if XYZ chores aren't done, they will be done by staff & specific charges will be levied. Ideally they will be forced to accept to pay extra to have the horses looked after properly - or sell up & take up a different hobby.