FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
Wow Applecart it's one thing to disagree with a poster but that was a really nasty and unnecessary thing to say about her horse being PTS.
Encouraging horse to stand nicely on trailer
- Thread starter ellis9905
- Start date
applecart14
Well-Known Member
So its okay for you to say things to me but I can't say things to you? Bit hypocritical.
Do you not think that its unfair for you to say that I treat my horse like a machine, alude to the fact that I am not treating him fairly and all the dozens of other things you have said to me over the months.
Only the other day someone on this forum pulled you up on something you had written on my post saying that it was a cruel and unecessary comment. You seem to have a short memory PS, you have said some rotten things to me, as have many others. And when I retaliate you don't like it. If you can't take it you shouldn't give it.
you have said much more mean things to me over the years and well you know it.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I really think the 2 of you need to put each other on UI. 
applecart14
Well-Known Member
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
User ignore.
Both of you make valid points but what could have been a useful thread for the OP has got totally derailed, again
Both of you make valid points but what could have been a useful thread for the OP has got totally derailed, again
applecart14
Well-Known Member
User ignore.
Both of you make valid points but what could have been a useful thread for the OP has got totally derailed, again
aha.
Sorry OP.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
user ignore.
the two situations are apples and oranges.
retaliate (if thats what you want to call it) all you like, i know i did the right thing and i dont have to seek other peoples approval on here to be at peace with that choice.
YOU took a completely none related thread off at this tangent btw.
the two situations are apples and oranges.
retaliate (if thats what you want to call it) all you like, i know i did the right thing and i dont have to seek other peoples approval on here to be at peace with that choice.
YOU took a completely none related thread off at this tangent btw.
Llanali
Well-Known Member
A sound plan, milliepops. I have barely been on the forum for ages, so I don't know all the accusations flying around, I speak as I see.
Applecart seemed to imply that hobbles were dangerous because someone's horse was concussed by being lead down a ramp in them. I commented that that was an illogical though process, because it assumed that PS would definitely also be stupid and Lead in them. For clarity I never commented either way on the use of hobbles, just that I didn't agree with the logic.
I did comment that as applecart said she watched her horse paw the mudflap, that I thought that was dangerous, and I do. Applecart made no comment to say that she counter acted her horses behaviour in any way, otherwise I would have known she did not agree with it/allow it, and I would have not commented as there was no need!
I maintain that applecarts comment about pts was deeply wrong. PS did certainly then also strike, and frankly I would too if anyone has accused me of giving up an shooting my horse unnessarily.
Applecart seemed to imply that hobbles were dangerous because someone's horse was concussed by being lead down a ramp in them. I commented that that was an illogical though process, because it assumed that PS would definitely also be stupid and Lead in them. For clarity I never commented either way on the use of hobbles, just that I didn't agree with the logic.
I did comment that as applecart said she watched her horse paw the mudflap, that I thought that was dangerous, and I do. Applecart made no comment to say that she counter acted her horses behaviour in any way, otherwise I would have known she did not agree with it/allow it, and I would have not commented as there was no need!
I maintain that applecarts comment about pts was deeply wrong. PS did certainly then also strike, and frankly I would too if anyone has accused me of giving up an shooting my horse unnessarily.
applecart14
Well-Known Member
Touche
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Wow, just wow.
I think it is awful to accuse someone of PTS because they were not prepared to put effort in, it is just awful. I think the difference is that PS never opened that up for discussion on the forum, it was a decision made in private, and although I heard about it on a forum it was just to offer condolences, and I seem to think someone else broke the news anyway, not PS. I seem to remember it did not officially appear on HHO until a while after the event.
If the debate of PTS was opened by an OP, and you think that more effort would help the situation, then fine, but to say any other after the event is insensitive to say the least, especially when views were not sought.
Many people seem to take umbridge as they ask for advice, then do not like the replies. To me this is an open forum, and if advice is asked for then it is wise to take what is offered with good grace. If someone sees what is written and thinks there is a danger to a horse then that is fine to point it out. Maybe more thought could go into conveying that sentiment, so as to get the message across.
Some people have asked for help and advice, I have offered it, and they have thrown back with bad grace. I tend not to offer help to those people again. Some times it seems that people know they are doing wrong, and have an internal battle with themselves, so portray a "woe is me" thread, so others can be kind human beings and give that person the satisfaction of thinking that others agree. Others seem to actually want people to say they are "wrong" so they can justify themselves in public, and presumably feel satisfaction from that. Those are the threads I avoid, as I am not sure use of a forum in these cases is healthy or helpful.
It s a whole study in psychology!
Meanwhile the OP asked for help on trailer stress, and many people have replied with useful suggestions, my suggestion on page 1 or 2 being one of them. I give what has worked for me, and have viewed the other relevant replies with interest. Good luck OP, and let us know how you get on.
I think it is awful to accuse someone of PTS because they were not prepared to put effort in, it is just awful. I think the difference is that PS never opened that up for discussion on the forum, it was a decision made in private, and although I heard about it on a forum it was just to offer condolences, and I seem to think someone else broke the news anyway, not PS. I seem to remember it did not officially appear on HHO until a while after the event.
If the debate of PTS was opened by an OP, and you think that more effort would help the situation, then fine, but to say any other after the event is insensitive to say the least, especially when views were not sought.
Many people seem to take umbridge as they ask for advice, then do not like the replies. To me this is an open forum, and if advice is asked for then it is wise to take what is offered with good grace. If someone sees what is written and thinks there is a danger to a horse then that is fine to point it out. Maybe more thought could go into conveying that sentiment, so as to get the message across.
Some people have asked for help and advice, I have offered it, and they have thrown back with bad grace. I tend not to offer help to those people again. Some times it seems that people know they are doing wrong, and have an internal battle with themselves, so portray a "woe is me" thread, so others can be kind human beings and give that person the satisfaction of thinking that others agree. Others seem to actually want people to say they are "wrong" so they can justify themselves in public, and presumably feel satisfaction from that. Those are the threads I avoid, as I am not sure use of a forum in these cases is healthy or helpful.
It s a whole study in psychology!
Meanwhile the OP asked for help on trailer stress, and many people have replied with useful suggestions, my suggestion on page 1 or 2 being one of them. I give what has worked for me, and have viewed the other relevant replies with interest. Good luck OP, and let us know how you get on.
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AandK
Well-Known Member
No matter what the history between you too, that was totally uncalled for.
applecart14
Well-Known Member
No it is not. If you knew of the things she has repeatedly said to me, which have been spiteful and mean. Horrid comments that have had me in tears. This has been going on for months and months, repeatedly. And eventually there comes a point with anyone, when they say enough is enough. And today is the day that I have bitten back. And I am sorry if she doesn't like it but she has never spared a thought for me with all the nasty jibes and comments she has dished out.
She was told she was being cruel for saying what she said to one of my posts the other day. Why you are all rallying around someone has displayed these nasty comments for a long period of time is beyond me.
If you are going to be judge and jury then please get your facts straight instead of jumping on the band wagon. THis person knows me personally, and for whatever reason (I cannot understand the hidden agenda) has taken it upon herself to pursue me on practically every post i have written about my horses injury.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
I have to say it;
'Will both of you take this elsewhere or just grow up enough to ignore each others posts if you rub each other up the wrong way that badly.'
'Will both of you take this elsewhere or just grow up enough to ignore each others posts if you rub each other up the wrong way that badly.'
Llanali
Well-Known Member
Then why are you even commenting on her posts? If she is upsetting you so much, why are you not ignoring her?
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
you are correct in that a few people disagreed with my observations.
fine, thats their call. so i left it. I still think i am right, and nothing anyone says will change it, thats allowable as thats life, people disagree.
..........i actually asked for your thoughts on how you would do things better but no reply which makes me think you know there isnt a better way to do it in this particular case?
so lets get back to trailers, applecart how would you train a horse that has already shown it can and will kick through the side of a lorry,not to do it? Bearing in mind this horse has traveled all over the WORLD by road and plane,and is not an inexperienced or nervy traveler just impatient. Would you risk a broken leg or severed artery or that he kicks through again and hits the driver possibly causing an RTA? or would you simply take away the option to do it?
and again, how would you physically prevent half a ton of horse coming over the tack locker and partition, whilst on the move? do you think its an acceptable risk to continue to do even short journies knowing that it only takes the horse 10 seconds max to get on top and half way over? or would you think that eliminating his ability to do this is the better way to tackle it for his safety and that of the people who have to try and physically lift him off?
(i hasten to add these are the only 2 tricky travelers we have had in nearly 25 years of having equines in the family, so not driver or lorry related!)
i look forward to your thoughts on the topic of the thread
fine, thats their call. so i left it. I still think i am right, and nothing anyone says will change it, thats allowable as thats life, people disagree.
..........i actually asked for your thoughts on how you would do things better but no reply which makes me think you know there isnt a better way to do it in this particular case?
so lets get back to trailers, applecart how would you train a horse that has already shown it can and will kick through the side of a lorry,not to do it? Bearing in mind this horse has traveled all over the WORLD by road and plane,and is not an inexperienced or nervy traveler just impatient. Would you risk a broken leg or severed artery or that he kicks through again and hits the driver possibly causing an RTA? or would you simply take away the option to do it?
and again, how would you physically prevent half a ton of horse coming over the tack locker and partition, whilst on the move? do you think its an acceptable risk to continue to do even short journies knowing that it only takes the horse 10 seconds max to get on top and half way over? or would you think that eliminating his ability to do this is the better way to tackle it for his safety and that of the people who have to try and physically lift him off?
(i hasten to add these are the only 2 tricky travelers we have had in nearly 25 years of having equines in the family, so not driver or lorry related!)
i look forward to your thoughts on the topic of the thread
applecart14
Well-Known Member
you are correct in that a few people disagreed with my observations.
fine, thats their call. so i left it. I still think i am right, and nothing anyone says will change it, thats allowable as thats life, people disagree.
..........i actually asked for your thoughts on how you would do things better but no reply which makes me think you know there isnt a better way to do it in this particular case?
so lets get back to trailers, applecart how would you train a horse that has already shown it can and will kick through the side of a lorry,not to do it? Bearing in mind this horse has traveled all over the WORLD by road and plane,and is not an inexperienced or nervy traveler just impatient. Would you risk a broken leg or severed artery or that he kicks through again and hits the driver possibly causing an RTA? or would you simply take away the option to do it?
and again, how would you physically prevent half a ton of horse coming over the tack locker and partition, whilst on the move? do you think its an acceptable risk to continue to do even short journies knowing that it only takes the horse 10 seconds max to get on top and half way over? or would you think that eliminating his ability to do this is the better way to tackle it for his safety and that of the people who have to try and physically lift him off?
(i hasten to add these are the only 2 tricky travelers we have had in nearly 25 years of having equines in the family, so not driver or lorry related!)
i look forward to your thoughts on the topic of the thread
I offered my opinion which is something that you have never been short on offering on my posts. I stated that I thought hobbling was unkind. There is no great mystery, or certain answer. If it were my horse that was doing that he would get shouted at, and would stop doing it. This is because he is well mannered and the rule of the thumb is that when I shout (whcih is hardly ever as he hardly does much wrong) Mum means business. This does not mean I am suggested your horse is not well mannered by the way I am just telling you how my horse is.
My horse has never kicked out in the trailer, He would get reprimanded if he did. I am not suggeting I would give him a bloody good clout round the ears, but he would be aware that its not a good game to play. I would think that the reason your horse plays up in the way you describe is because he doesn't like travelling. Having already been through a similiar issue with my own horse who wouldn't travel its worth investigating the cause of the problem rather than just reaching for a quick solution. I spent months trying to get to the bottom of my horses loading problem and he even ended up going to a Monty Roberts demo. Of course the usual screams could be heard from the 'its because he's in pain' brigade (everything my horse ever does is attributed to this very subject of course). Where is actual fact taking off the horses travel boots, leaving a radio on in the trailer and increasing the ventilation was all he needed. He loads very quickly now, most often walks on without hesitation, if he does stand with both legs on the ramp he looks around first (I know what he is looking for by the way) and then loads.
If the only thing that stops your horse from climbing over the tack locker in your lorry is a set of hobbles then I think your horse has some serious phychological issues surrounding travelling and I think these need to be addressed in the same way i addressed my horses issues.
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Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
but whats the alternative?
cruel to be kind for all of 5 seconds until they figure out they cant kick perhaps. But beyond that 5 seconds is it really cruel? and again-what would you do?
please do share your knowledge and experience
cruel to be kind for all of 5 seconds until they figure out they cant kick perhaps. But beyond that 5 seconds is it really cruel? and again-what would you do?
please do share your knowledge and experience
Tempi
Well-Known Member
Everything else aside - I hobble my horse behind to travel. He's not stressed about travelling and doesnt kick all the time or panic etc, but on the way home from a show he gets impatient and will start kicking the crap out of the lorry.
So badly once that he broke he's pedal bone, he has also kicked the partition out which has come down on top of him (even though we had it reinforced due to his kicking)
Now he wears hobbles behind he travels like a lamb and I never have any issues. I might add that he will stand on the lorry for hours whilst at a show with no trouble at all. And I take his hobbles off when we arrive and only put them back on when leaving.
It's worked wonders for my horse who also caused over £1000 worth of damage to my lorry through kicking. The hobbles don't stress him out at all and whilst I'm sure some people think they are the devil work in fact when used correctly they are a fantastic bit of kit to have.
So badly once that he broke he's pedal bone, he has also kicked the partition out which has come down on top of him (even though we had it reinforced due to his kicking)
Now he wears hobbles behind he travels like a lamb and I never have any issues. I might add that he will stand on the lorry for hours whilst at a show with no trouble at all. And I take his hobbles off when we arrive and only put them back on when leaving.
It's worked wonders for my horse who also caused over £1000 worth of damage to my lorry through kicking. The hobbles don't stress him out at all and whilst I'm sure some people think they are the devil work in fact when used correctly they are a fantastic bit of kit to have.
applecart14
Well-Known Member
I ran out of time to finish my post. It could be because maybe you drive too fast, or its too hot in the lorry, or maybe there is something wrong with it and the horse is worried, like a mechanical fault. Maybe the floor is slippy, maybe he hasn't enought to eat to keep him occupied. Could be many reasons, but maybe worth addressing these first and ruling them out like i had to with my horse.
I am just flabbergasted that people actually put hobbles on their horses in order to pacify them in the first place. I would never do that to my horse. He would go balistic for a start.
What would happen if you had to do an emergency stop for example? How would your horse be able to keep its balance if it is unable to stretch its legs because it is hobbled? Just wondering.
I am just flabbergasted that people actually put hobbles on their horses in order to pacify them in the first place. I would never do that to my horse. He would go balistic for a start.
What would happen if you had to do an emergency stop for example? How would your horse be able to keep its balance if it is unable to stretch its legs because it is hobbled? Just wondering.
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Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
i think the only "serious phychological issues" Goof has are called being 4 and an impatient half ton thug!
my 8 stone is no match for his bulk so i shall just continue to prevent him trying in the first place and allow him to calmly eat his hay. Im not sure exactly what you think anyone like monty would do with a horse that leads perfectly,loads happily,ties well, and is in every other way a good boy? he doesnt appear to have many signs of being deeply troubled.
my 8 stone is no match for his bulk so i shall just continue to prevent him trying in the first place and allow him to calmly eat his hay. Im not sure exactly what you think anyone like monty would do with a horse that leads perfectly,loads happily,ties well, and is in every other way a good boy? he doesnt appear to have many signs of being deeply troubled.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
having had to do a full on, stamp on brakes emergency stop when some absolute brainless tit pulled out in front of me on wed, i can assure you they wobble and then righten themselves exactly as any horse would as the strap in the middle is long enough to allow them to spread their legs and balance, it only prevents one leg being lifted above knee or hock height.
the ONLY time the hobble acts is to stop a kick or one front leg being thrown up and out.
the rest of your points are invalid as i am not so stupid as to travel any horse in an unsound lorry, without ventilation or without sufficient hay to last both journeys PLUS enough to account for traffic jams. I have been travelling horses for long enough to know how to do so thanks. And if you read my earlier post you would have seen in 25 years these are the only 2 horses to have any problems, a reasonable track record.
your horse has serious phychological problems if being hobbled would cause him to go ballistic as i know a LOT of pro's that use them with zero issues.
applecart14
Well-Known Member
PS I didn't suggest your horse saw Monty Roberts. I simply said my horse had seen him. I am prepared to work with my horse into finding out what the issues are, and whilst I am not suggesting this is not true of you, you appear to have bypassed this slightly by reaching for the hobbles.
Whilst I didn't suggest your horse was deeply troubled, I do not know many people who have to resort to literally handcuffing, sorry, hoofcuffing their horses into submission in order to travel.
I agree that your horse cannot go on without something being done, but I feel that the option you have taken doesn't address the issues of why your horse is behaving like that. Being a large impatient horse is not reason enough.
LibbyL
Well-Known Member
Could somebody explain hobbles to me please, what would be the criteria for using them and how do they work? Not for my use as I wouldn't use something I didn't know how to but just for future reference?
How do you put them on? Assuming you load them first and then bend over to put them on?
Does it hinder balancing at all? My mare really shuffles around keeping her balance in the trailer, would this not be affected by them?
Sorry to be a pain but I like knowing different techniques
How do you put them on? Assuming you load them first and then bend over to put them on?
Does it hinder balancing at all? My mare really shuffles around keeping her balance in the trailer, would this not be affected by them?
Sorry to be a pain but I like knowing different techniques
Cragrat
Well-Known Member
Travelling hobbles are usually longer than breeding hobbles.
They have well padded straps around the lower limb, and as PS said, can be adjusted to that the horse can spread and move his legs, but can't lift them high enough to do any damage to themselves or their surroundings.
In a way, it's a similar principal to a martingale- a normal range of movement is allowed, but they come into play once that normal movement is exceeded.
Eta, yes, you load without them, then put them on. The horse has to be calm and trust you whilst you are doing this- once they have lost the plot it's too late!!!
They have well padded straps around the lower limb, and as PS said, can be adjusted to that the horse can spread and move his legs, but can't lift them high enough to do any damage to themselves or their surroundings.
In a way, it's a similar principal to a martingale- a normal range of movement is allowed, but they come into play once that normal movement is exceeded.
Eta, yes, you load without them, then put them on. The horse has to be calm and trust you whilst you are doing this- once they have lost the plot it's too late!!!
Tempi
Well-Known Member
Mine only has his hind feet hobbled, he is free to move still but just cant get his legs up high enough to start kicking. Never had any issues when having to brake hard. They can still stand with their legs wide to get their balance - they aren't tied together so they cant move!!
Like I said above, my horse is 99% calm and just eats his hay whilst travelling, I bred him myself so I know him inside out. He just gets impatient on the way home, generally after we have been staying away at a big show and he wants to get back to his friends!!
Hobbles aren't cruel, they prevent the horse from doing injury to itself and to others.
Like I said above, my horse is 99% calm and just eats his hay whilst travelling, I bred him myself so I know him inside out. He just gets impatient on the way home, generally after we have been staying away at a big show and he wants to get back to his friends!!
Hobbles aren't cruel, they prevent the horse from doing injury to itself and to others.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
yes load them first then they buckle round the fetlock and have an adjustable centre strap which needs to be left long enough they can spread their legs to balance
Both the boys can shuffle forward or back and have a pee easily with them on, and can still lift each leg up in turn, they just cant kick (Fig who wears them behind) or strike up and out with one front leg (Goof who wears them in front).
Applecart-we have checked all the possible issues, there are not issues, being a blockhead 4yo is definitely considered enough reason by Goof!
Both the boys can shuffle forward or back and have a pee easily with them on, and can still lift each leg up in turn, they just cant kick (Fig who wears them behind) or strike up and out with one front leg (Goof who wears them in front).
Applecart-we have checked all the possible issues, there are not issues, being a blockhead 4yo is definitely considered enough reason by Goof!
LibbyL
Well-Known Member
Thank you, that is really interesting, makes sense referencing it to martingale. Glad my pony only has the occasional kick to the trailer as it sounds like some can be rather noisy/destructive!
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nikkimariet
Well-Known Member
Aw poor Goof <3
No excuses for Fig lol! Global traveler of many years and every person I've spoke to said he used to kick like buggery unless hobbled. Just impatient. Not wound up at all.
Never needs any encouragement to load or unload (though, neither does Blockhead!).
I'm just glad both have come out the other side of what was 2 fairly traumatic incidents with all legs intact. Fig, remarkably not a scratch on him. Goofy, a scrape on one knee I think from memory? Could have been the end of everything and it still makes me feel sick to this day.
applecart14
Well-Known Member
Neither did my horse for seven and a half years
And like I say he has been great for about the last year now so its good news allround.I still maintain to this day that it was the pig I showed him at the event centre that screwed his head. For him to tremble and shake in the way he did when it snorted at him, and never have issues loading prior to that day is really weird. It took 3/4 hour to load him to come home and he kept looking behind him, I think he thought it was going to get in the trailer behind him and keep him warm
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AandK
Well-Known Member
I have been on this forum long enough to know you two don't get on, and have read most of the comments/threads you refer to, so do I have my facts straight thank you. I still do not think it is acceptable to say to PS that she did not make any effort to get to the bottom of her horses issues before having him PTS.
I agree with the poster who said you should both put each other on user ignore, it would save a lot of heartache.