Equest Pramox

The Fuzzy Furry said:
There have been many recorded instances in small ponies in particular, when they have not had a heavy worm burden. The SPSBS doesn't recco the use in miniatures. (Or didnt 3 yrs ago when I last checked).
My 2 colics were reported in by my vet, 1 had autopsy and that one was virtually worm free.
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I cant find anything other than anecdotal evidence anywhere. Surely someone has done some actual research? All I can find is anecdotal evidence against and vets and worm count companies recommending it.

Equitape has been discontinued, so they only option now is pyrantel which has known resistance problems, which means in some areas its not going to work very well and increase the resistance problem. Which brings you back to Pramox as a sensible option. Expcet people dont want to use it.
 
Leo Walker said:
I cant find anything other than anecdotal evidence anywhere. Surely someone has done some actual research? All I can find is anecdotal evidence against and vets and worm count companies recommending it.

Equitape has been discontinued, so they only option now is pyrantel which has known resistance problems, which means in some areas its not going to work very well and increase the resistance problem. Which brings you back to Pramox as a sensible option. Expcet people dont want to use it.
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who is going to fund that research? the wormer manufacturers?
nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence if it makes people think twice and consider a different way of worming and avoiding a product that has the potential to cause problems. If you search HHO you will find earlier threads where people have reported problems. All of those people cannot be making the same comments without something behind it.

I have barefoot horses. No way would I use pramox just because of that. I saw the damage it did to someone's barefoot horse.
 
There is everything wrong with anecdotal evidence, everything. I have barefoot horses, its never been an issue for mine. So whose anecdotal evidence is right, yours or mine?

I'm not disputing people are making comments, I'm asking what the cause is not the effect. Is it the wormer itself, or is it that its one of the only wormers we have that is very effective? It would seem far, far more likely to be the latter, but no one knows and everyone insists its the former.

And yes, if people were reporting these reactions and it was proven to be caused by the wormer as opposed to a worm burden, then I would expect the wormer manufacturer to do exactly the same as the vaccine manufacturers, pay for treatment and investigate further.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Unfortunately Equitape was discontinued last year, the last batch was ‘use by Oct 18’.
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That's what I thought. I did stock up with a spare, in case, but May's test was negative. I have moved yards and this week's test was positive. (Grr). So the one I have is now a year out of date :(

Have gone with Strongid-P instead.
 
LW, have you thought about that the reporting from vets to the companies may not be available in the public domain? Unless there is wide scale issues, which would mean a chemical had to be recalled, then numbers and issues wouldnt be reported publicly.
There are reactions by human's and animals to many drugs, often these are listed as contraindications to be aware of. Unless reported figures reach a set figure then these wont be in the public domain.
 
Leo Walker said:
There is everything wrong with anecdotal evidence, everything. I have barefoot horses, its never been an issue for mine. So whose anecdotal evidence is right, yours or mine?

I'm not disputing people are making comments, I'm asking what the cause is not the effect. Is it the wormer itself, or is it that its one of the only wormers we have that is very effective? It would seem far, far more likely to be the latter, but no one knows and everyone insists its the former.

And yes, if people were reporting these reactions and it was proven to be caused by the wormer as opposed to a worm burden, then I would expect the wormer manufacturer to do exactly the same as the vaccine manufacturers, pay for treatment and investigate further.
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great it hasn't been an issue for yours. For the owner I warned several times not to give it and who went ahead and did their own thing it was an issue. So much of an issue the horse' was so sore after it that it had to be shod. . Therefore having seen the consequences and having heard of others having problems I go with the anecdotal evidence and keep my own horses safe by not using it.

re your final para, yes someone could use it, then have to deal with the consequences, wait for it to be proven and wait for the manufacturer to investigate further and pay for treatment.
Alternatively they can listen to the anecdotal evidence and try to avoid trouble for their horse in the first place.
 
I'm really interested to read people's opinions on Pramox
A good few years ago now we wormed the whole yard with Pramox before turning out on new grass. Within about 24 hours we had a yard full of ill horses. They were displaying shaking and laminitis type symptoms. We had vets out all night, my memory is hazy because the TBs seemed the least affected by symptoms and everything I put on that field of my own was a TB and were only mildly affected if at all. The cobs were the worst affected.
At the time we were worried an adjacent field had been sprayed with something that had 'poisoned' them. Then I too heard anecdotal stories about this wormer. We have never wormed with Pramox since.
A friend has lost a pony to laminitis after worming with Pramox.
I bought a lovely pony for my daughter, just over a year ago, and one of the things I was told by his old owners was that he had never been wormed with Pramox as the breeder lost his mother after worming her with the same.
My tales too are anecdotal but I wont use it on any of mine again or include it in our livery worming programme.
 
I understand that others on the forum have no proof of this, but I heard it direct from a rep for a company that makes it that moxidectin/praziquantel in combination results in lots of reports of adverse effects, so much so that they would not use it for their own horse.

I have checked and can only find statements that there is no tapeworm resistance problem with pyrantel drugs (Strongid P).

.
 
Tiddlypom said:
*whispers* I may have recently given the senior mare my last tube of Equitape which had an Oct ‘18 use by date.
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I had some "in stock" too and used them this autumn on the ones I haven't done an equisal on lately.

I will be swapping to pyrantel x 2 and separate moxidectin as needed until my test show that it isn't working, in which case I will ask my vets for the praziquantel that they can supply.
 
Tiddlypom said:
*whispers* I may have recently given the senior mare my last tube of Equitape which had an Oct ‘18 use by date.
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I asked my vet about the use by dates when I knew it was being discontinued. Her take was that these drugs are designed with alot of leeway re use by dates as the companies are cautious and want to protect themselves especially as they may be stored in non optimal conditions. Plus as it was being discontinued, the tubes were short dated to match the use by date to the date it was withdrawn.

I've used the last of mine now but yes it was technically out of date. I also eat food past its use by date if it passed the sniff test.

In actual fact the only reaction I've had personally was with 5 day panacur. Horse who is barefoot got gradually footier over the 5 days but back to normal within 24 hours as soon as I stopped. This was repeated at another yard so I do think it was related and the horse in question has had clear worm counts several times a year for 12 years so I wouldn't think a nigh worm burden was likely. I didn't think to report at the time.

Incidentally with my other horse who always comes back with a high tapeworm count, it seems that Pyrantal is working better than Praziquantel but still monitoring.
 
Going off on a tangent but is the tape worm test worth doing or do the majority just worm for it (regardless if its pramox or strongid p then worming later for encysted red)?
 
I think so, I was happily worming every 6 months for tapes alternating drugs. My 2 horses are kept together and on the same turnout routine and fields and one always comes back positive and one never does. The positive one has had some really high scores and given he has an issue I prefer to monitor it and see how we are doing even though I know I will end up worming.

Worth bearing in mind though as the test measures antibodies, it will take a while for these to come down even if you are clear so you may still get positive results for a while after. So I take a long view.

It's no cheaper though as the test costs as much as the wormer.
 
Worth it for me, as with the ones that generally don't pick up a worm burden it allows me to go with just an annual equest and that's all they need.
If they can develop a saliva test for encysted small redworm then maybe I'll be able to do away with that too (not quite prepared to pay for the new blood test)
 
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Tiddlypom said:
*whispers* I may have recently given the senior mare my last tube of Equitape which had an Oct ‘18 use by date.
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I am very tempted to use mine ... but am worried that a year out of date is a long time.
I did buy it just before it became discontinued so I wonder if it was "short dated".

Decisions, Decisions!!
 
OldNag said:
I am very tempted to use mine ... but am worried that a year out of date is a long time.
I did buy it just before it became discontinued so I wonder if it was "short dated".

Decisions, Decisions!!
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I wormed 6 with my hoarded equitape last month and I am pleased to say all have survived. :D I understood that the " use by date" was in fact adjusted to the date when it was no longer sold.
 
OldNag said:
I am very tempted to use mine ... but am worried that a year out of date is a long time.
I did buy it just before it became discontinued so I wonder if it was "short dated".

Decisions, Decisions!!
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I've just looked it up. Shelf life four years if it hasn't been allowed to freeze or get baked. so you need to check the manufacture date and count from that.

.
 
milliepops said:
Worth it for me, as with the ones that generally don't pick up a worm burden it allows me to go with just an annual equest and that's all they need.
If they can develop a saliva test for encysted small redworm then maybe I'll be able to do away with that too (not quite prepared to pay for the new blood test)
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Do you know how much the new blood test is?
 
Just thought I'd add my own experiences with Pramox. One of my ponies is quite old, can't tell how old because his passport was done by a previous owner years after he was born and it is now quite obvious the pony is significantly older than his age on the passport. Anyway, I have used Equest Pramox once a year for quite a few years in early spring. On a couple of occasions my old pony showed signs of colic about 30 mins after being wormed but these would resolve themselves within about 10-15 mins so I continued using the wormer. Today, 30 mins after worming, he started showing signs of colic again and they were more severe. They lasted about 35 mins and he was lying down most of that time, flat out at times and I got seriously worried. He then got up, walked a bit and started grazing which is what he did after the previous episodes but the whole thing shook me up quite badly. His pony friend and my mare (horse) were wormed at the same time and were absolutely fine. I will not use Pramox again with him as he is obviously getting too old to cope with it and will use Panacur Guard for the encysted redworms and Equimax for the rest. He was wormed with Equimax last September so he seems to be fine with praziquantel, it is either the combination with moxidectin or moxidectin itself which is the problem.
I didn't know there was a blood test for encysted redworm. Is it reliable? If so I may ask the vet to do a blood test once a year for both encysted redworm and tapeworm and, who knows, I may get away with just worm counts after that.
 
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