Faecal water syndrome ? or something else?

meleeka

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Working on it. Unfortunately there is a hollow in the floor the urine runs there. He can see out more that way round.

Does any one know if I filled the hollow with soaked wood / straw pellets and put his straw on top they would stay in place?

They should he quite firm, but probably not if he’s actively digging there.
 

MereChristmas

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They should he quite firm, but probably not if he’s actively digging there.

I’m not sure if he digs. I only know the bed is moved over and laid on. He can’t dig deep because of the rubber mats. I can ask if anyone sees him do it.

I had hoped filling the hollow might work but it might be an expensive failure!
 

MereChristmas

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Latest report..
Three visits to F this week and each time his bum has been clean. He was moved to a different patch on Wednesday afternoon because of sycamore seedlings.
His hocks and thigh where he lies down are less mucky but not clean. He is still lying in the part of the bed he wees in!
You would think he would lie down in the dry, but hey ho, horses!
 

meleeka

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Mine is back to square one :(. The rubbish weather has meant she’s just standing eating hay all the time. This has coincided with a new bale of hay so that’s probably the culprit. It smells lovely but is courser than usual.
 

MereChristmas

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Mine is back to square one :(. The rubbish weather has meant she’s just standing eating hay all the time. This has coincided with a new bale of hay so that’s probably the culprit. It smells lovely but is courser than usual.

That’s a great shame. Do you have any bad weather turnout?
I have been at this yard for just over a year and F has been out for daytime in winter and night in summer and has never missed his half day.
At the moment it is different as the sycamore seedlings, which didn’t appear last year, have upset the plans.
The YO is waiting on sheep to be brought to the sycamore seedlings field to graze them down. I think we may have to share grazing for a few weeks but YO is doing her best to make sure every horse has turnout.
 

meleeka

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That’s a great shame. Do you have any bad weather turnout?
I have been at this yard for just over a year and F has been out for daytime in winter and night in summer and has never missed his half day.
At the moment it is different as the sycamore seedlings, which didn’t appear last year, have upset the plans.
The YO is waiting on sheep to be brought to the sycamore seedlings field to graze them down. I think we may have to share grazing for a few weeks but YO is doing her best to make sure every horse has turnout.
She’s out 24/7 with access to stables anyway, but thinks she will dissolve in the rain, so tends to stay in the shelter eating if the weather is bad. The minute the sun comes out she’ll leave the hay and go and graze. She’s Welsh so really should be more hardy 🙄
 

Highmileagecob

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My old cob is still dry. One thing I have noticed, which I now know to be relevant to him, his droppings no longer contain chopped forage. In the past they looked like compressed lawn clippings, but now he appears to be digesting better, the droppings are smooth and not surrounded by a puddle.
 

MereChristmas

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A week and a bit on a different paddock because of the sycamore seedlings and F has had a clean bum all week.His droppings look pretty normal and there isn’t any free water round them when they hit the bedding.
But
today I watched him poo and although the droppings were fine there was a little free water afterwards. It didn’t mark him and if I hadn’t seen it I wouldn’t have known.
Not sure what to make of it but will keep watching when I can.
 

MereChristmas

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A 40 litre trug tub of well damped Graze On, split between two feeds was a turning point for my cob. Grass again.....
I have reread all the replies this evening.
For clarification.
Did Graze On stop the faecal water? Did grass make it worse?
My pony shouldn’t have chaff feeds because of diastemas.
Thank you
 

Red-1

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With the bedding, if there is rubber matting, could you not fill the hollow with hard core under the matting? Or of it is onto concrete, do a skim so it is flat?

With the lying where he pees, mine does this, but with the bed being thick, the pee is under the surface. My test is to slam the fork in, if it hits on the bottom of the bed, then the bed needs to be thicker. I bottom BH's bed once a week, the base is hard with pee but the top is still white. Rigs has his done 2 or three times, old man pee, and is thinner, but still thick enough that 3 nights' pee would not show through. I use 3 bales apiece.
 

Highmileagecob

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Not sure whether it was 100% Graze On cure, or the combination of short chop fibre. Cob has diastema too, and the dentist checks every six months and says to carry on doing what I am doing. My aim was to get him through this winter in better condition than last, as he dropped so much weight last year he looked like an advert for neglected horses. Introducing a range of short chop (Graze On, Fast Fibre, Veteran haylage and Forage Nuggets) has achieved this. As a bonus, the faecal water has cleared up. I can only assume that food is now reaching the foregut in a state that the hindgut can cope with. He still eats his normal netted haylage, but it makes sense that if he isn't chewing properly, then it simply gets expelled from the hindgut as a fibre sludge.
 

MereChristmas

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With the bedding, if there is rubber matting, could you not fill the hollow with hard core under the matting? Or of it is onto concrete, do a skim so it is flat?

With the lying where he pees, mine does this, but with the bed being thick, the pee is under the surface. My test is to slam the fork in, if it hits on the bottom of the bed, then the bed needs to be thicker. I bottom BH's bed once a week, the base is hard with pee but the top is still white. Rigs has his done 2 or three times, old man pee, and is thinner, but still thick enough that 3 nights' pee would not show through. I use 3 bales apiece.
Thank you . I’m not sure what we are allowed to do. It would be difficult to put concrete as I don’t think there is anywhere for F to live while it sets.
We have had different straw recently and the bed has been much more dry.
 

MereChristmas

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Not sure whether it was 100% Graze On cure, or the combination of short chop fibre. Cob has diastema too, and the dentist checks every six months and says to carry on doing what I am doing. My aim was to get him through this winter in better condition than last, as he dropped so much weight last year he looked like an advert for neglected horses. Introducing a range of short chop (Graze On, Fast Fibre, Veteran haylage and Forage Nuggets) has achieved this. As a bonus, the faecal water has cleared up. I can only assume that food is now reaching the foregut in a state that the hindgut can cope with. He still eats his normal netted haylage, but it makes sense that if he isn't chewing properly, then it simply gets expelled from the hindgut as a fibre sludge.
Thank you
As F is almost clean at the moment I won’t change anything. He had the beginnings of infection in his gums when he was fed short baled chaff. I am reluctant to feed anything similar at the moment but will bear it in mind if I can’t get further improvement for him.
 

MereChristmas

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I have been reading more about EFWS and found this…


The last paragraph was interesting and also disconcerting as linseed is used so regularly to help with gut comfort.
I searched further and found linseed does have a laxative effect on the horse. I didn’t know this.

F is fed a small amount of Allen & Page Fast Fibre. It is used as a carrier for any supplements.
At the moment, in an attempt to eliminate anything that might make the EFWS worse
he is only having soft hay, FF, salt and grass.

F’s poo is fine, his FW has reduced but not stopped.
I had thought to add oily herbs next but this information has made me pause.

Should I remove any linseed? Or will this compromise his gut protection?
If I remove it what can I replace it with? He will be very upset not to have a feed with everyone else.

Has anyone any further knowledge or experience of this?
Thank you
 

meleeka

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I have been reading more about EFWS and found this…


The last paragraph was interesting and also disconcerting as linseed is used so regularly to help with gut comfort.
I searched further and found linseed does have a laxative effect on the horse. I didn’t know this.

F is fed a small amount of Allen & Page Fast Fibre. It is used as a carrier for any supplements.
At the moment, in an attempt to eliminate anything that might make the EFWS worse
he is only having soft hay, FF, salt and grass.

F’s poo is fine, his FW has reduced but not stopped.
I had thought to add oily herbs next but this information has made me pause.

Should I remove any linseed? Or will this compromise his gut protection?
If I remove it what can I replace it with? He will be very upset not to have a feed with everyone else.

Has anyone any further knowledge or experience of this?
Thank you
That’s interesting as mine has a joint supplement with linseed in it. It’s the only one she’ll eat and is very fussy so I can’t feed an alternative. I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place really!
 

MereChristmas

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That’s interesting as mine has a joint supplement with linseed in it. It’s the only one she’ll eat and is very fussy so I can’t feed an alternative. I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place really!
So many feeds and supplements have linseed included.

The article doesn’t say if there is a min or max amount that may tip the balance either to better or worse EFWS
 

FinnishLapphund

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Pre joining HHO I've always heard that linseed can be laxative for humans, but after joining here, I've read so many posts where people mentions feeding linseed to their horses that I'd started to presume it worked differently on horses.

Found a quite short HHO thread from 2020 about linseed replacement, and Ihatework suggested replacing with Omega rice, and Milliepops said she's feeding Omega rice since her fussy eater rejected micronised linseed meal.

On a thread on the Chronicle of the Horse, about supplements, there was replies suggesting replacing with Chia seeds, or Hemp hulls. The one recommending the later suggested Elite Equine Evolve https://elitethree.ca/collections/equine-nutrition/products/e5-evolve-hemp-hulls
 

MereChristmas

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Further thoughts. Remembering this is for my reference as I’m sure to forget some of what happened!

If a laxative is used it is to soften faeces so perhaps EFWS is unaffected by linseed.

I contacted NAF today and spoke to a nutritionist. I chose NAF because their Gastriaid seemed effective after F’s ulcer treatment. Unsurprisingly she didn’t know about linseed as a laxative.
I then asked what would be suggested for F who would need gut support, a little arthritis support and general vits and mins. I added that I did not want to purchase an array of supplements and then find I had doubled up on some ingredients.

She said EFWS often occurs after ulcers and recommended In the Pink Senior. This has I think all the ingredients F requires and ‘herbs’ are mentioned too although it doesn’t say which.

I am not sending for the Equibiome test as I think F is improving.
The decision is either oily herbs alone or Pink Senior.
I am tending to use Pink as it will cover all bases and not leave F lacking in goodies.
I the EFWS doesn’t improve after a while I will add the herbs.

Does any one have any experience of Pink Senior?
All comments, criticisms and suggestions gratefully received.
 

MereChristmas

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I’ve ridden F today.
His bum is clean and has been clean all this week while I have been ill.
Again I have caught a poo in the skip. There wasn’t any free faecal water.
YO reports that he is drinking less whereas before we had noticed his intake was more than expected.

I found this on the NAF website ( I think )
“Some horse can develop habitual drinking to an excessive level. Water intake in affected horses can be measured if water is provided in buckets. The average water intake for a horse is 5L/100kg in 24 hours, however this can be affected by exercise, climate and quantity of dry forage vs grass that is being fed. Water should NOT be restricted in cases of FFWS “

Today he will start having a little NAF In the Pink Senior in his feed to introduce the flavour.
I think that tomorrow he will return to his original field as the sheep have stripped the sycamore seedlings off.
 

FinnishLapphund

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Seems reasonable that as long as his body kept sending out water with his poop, his body also needed to replace that water by drinking more water.

Hope you're feeling better, and enjoyed the ride. Also hope the NAF, and Pink Senior helps keeping his problem under control.
 

MereChristmas

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It's been almost a month (since your last reply), and I was wondering how it's going with your horse, and his FWS problem @Meredith ?

Thank you for reminding me @FinnishLapphund

F has been on hay, Allen and Page Fast Fibre with NAF In The Pink Senior Supplement. He was returned to his own paddock after the sheep had cleared the sycamore seedlings.

We have had the cleanest of bums so a clean tail and a happy pony ( and a happy me )

The grass is growing crazily at the moment and still no change.



Latest photo of the cause of all the trouble.

CDFAED59-C06F-424A-B8DE-CE36F33813E4.jpeg
 

MereChristmas

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How lovely to hear you've managed to get the problem under control, fingers crossed it stays that way.

He looks so nice! (And very white, and clean!)

Yes, thank you. All limbs crossed here too😀
He is a good boy but can be cheeky. He is super white because the photo was taken while I was on holiday and I believe he was groomed a lot by smaller people, under supervision of course.
 

FinnishLapphund

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Yes, thank you. All limbs crossed here too😀
He is a good boy but can be cheeky. He is super white because the photo was taken while I was on holiday and I believe he was groomed a lot by smaller people, under supervision of course.

😁 As soon as I saw his photo I thought that he looks just like the horse that makes horse interested kids dream of unicorns. I'm sure they thought they where in horsey heaven getting to groom him.

🦄🦄
 

Kaylum

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My friend's pony had this. They did everything the could think of. In the end they changed yards and the pony was much better. The grazing was just too rich for the pony.
 
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