Family Protection Dogs

CorvusCorax said:
Whilst I agree that a lot of dog legislation is flawed, horses for courses literally means you pick a thoroughbred to race with.
Not a Clydesdale or a Friesian.
The same applies when picking a pet or working dog, which is why there isn't an Ovcharka on my sofa or a St Bernard out blitzing the agility rings.

The things that make working dogs good at their work, often precludes them from being suitable for the average sedentary pet home.

Some PP dog suppliers are selling imported molosser type breeds.
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I do agree, but there is no reason why an APBT would make any worse a pet than a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a Dogo Argentino vs a BullGreyhound, a Japeanese Tosa vs a Cane Corso or a Fila Brasileiro vs a Bullmastiff. All of those examples are illegal vs legal breeds of the same type...all the legal ones are popular pets and can/thrive in pet homes with the right owners.

Nobody is saying you will win any competitions for tracking with a pug, or flyball with a Neapolitan Mastiff but that doesnt exclude them from making very much loved members of the family. I dont think the post was about working dogs making poor pets - which they often do for the average Jo pet owner - but more a dig aimed at people who choose "unconventional" breeds to live alongside them and to love
 
Levrier said:
By ‘that sort of dog’ I mean more specifically one of the giant guarding breeds, who it appears quite often don’t have the right owners OR a suitable living environment when they are away from the job they were originally bred to do. As in the example given above.
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An APBT is an illegal breed though, and not a giant not a guarding breed...but you did specifically mention illegal breeds.

Plenty of working gundog and sighthound breeds are kept as pets by people; kept far removed from their original functions. That is something I would say is also a bad idea, but given the right homes and right owners then they flourish.

I just find it sad that people write entire breeds or types off because of perceptions
 
skinnydipper said:
I know your post was not directed at me but I would like to respond.

I have no problem with molosser breeds or bull breeds per se, in fact I have a soft spot for rotties and bull mastiffs.

The problem is that these dogs have more potential to do harm than your typical working cocker and they are the type of dog that frequently end up in the wrong hands. One clip in our town struts around with his American Bulldog with cropped ears, he is what Lev so eloquently describes as scum.

Could I also draw your attention to the case of the American Bulldog breeder whose arm was ripped off by two of his own dogs.
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I agree wholeheartedly that they have the potential to do more harm than a chihuahua...but jack russells have killed babies, there will be a shock horror type story for a huge numberof breeds. Fact remains that it doesn't make everydog of that breed a danger to society
 
kimberleigh said:
I do agree, but there is no reason why an APBT would make any worse a pet than a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a Dogo Argentino vs a BullGreyhound, a Japeanese Tosa vs a Cane Corso or a Fila Brasileiro vs a Bullmastiff. All of those examples are illegal vs legal breeds of the same type...all the legal ones are popular pets and can/thrive in pet homes with the right owners.

Nobody is saying you will win any competitions for tracking with a pug, or flyball with a Neapolitan Mastiff but that doesnt exclude them from making very much loved members of the family. I dont think the post was about working dogs making poor pets - which they often do for the average Jo pet owner - but more a dig aimed at people who choose "unconventional" breeds to live alongside them and to love
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It was not a “dig” at anyone, it was a simple statement saying that in my opinion such breeds have no place in our modern over-populated society when owned by people who use them as status symbols or fighting dogs

I could have used any of the ‘legal’ giant breeds you mention as an example as well - in the wrong hands they are dangerous, and they are often in the wrong hands
 
kimberleigh said:
An APBT is an illegal breed though, and not a giant not a guarding breed...but you did specifically mention illegal breeds.

Plenty of working gundog and sighthound breeds are kept as pets by people; kept far removed from their original functions. That is something I would say is also a bad idea, but given the right homes and right owners then they flourish.

I just find it sad that people write entire breeds or types off because of perceptions
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Who mentioned an APBT? The example I referred to in the thread was that of an Anatolian Shepherd Dog which has clearly been inappropriately re-homed & is a disaster waiting to happen

I’m guessing the reference to people keeping sighthounds as pets is your own little dig at me.....my four dogs are all rescued from idiots who exploited them for their original purpose then abandoned them when they had no further use for them, THOSE are the people who shouldn’t be keeping or breeding sighthounds
 
Levrier said:
It was not a “dig” at anyone, it was a simple statement saying that in my opinion such breeds have no place in our modern over-populated society when owned by people who use them as status symbols or fighting dogs

I could have used any of the ‘legal’ giant breeds you mention as an example as well - in the wrong hands they are dangerous, and they are often in the wrong hands
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I agree completely that no dog should ever be used as a status symbol!!
 
Levrier said:
Who mentioned an APBT? The example I referred to in the thread was that of an Anatolian Shepherd Dog which has clearly been inappropriately re-homed & is a disaster waiting to happen

I’m guessing the reference to people keeping sighthounds as pets is your own little dig at me.....my four dogs are all rescued from idiots who exploited them for their original purpose then abandoned them when they had no further use for them, THOSE are the people who shouldn’t be keeping or breeding sighthounds
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You said

You said

Levrier said:
Give me one good genuine reason why you would need, for example, one of the banned breeds? I absolutely recognise the legislation is appalling, don’t get me wrong, but I can’t see why anyone would need that sort of dog?
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The sighthound thing is absolutely no dig at you at all - in fact quite the opposite! I said in the right homes they flourish, and I think its clear to see that all of yours are perfect examples of 'working' bred dogs that make brilliant pets in the right home!! But there are people out there who would say "oh god why would anyone want one of those killer greyhounds as a pet? All they want to do is chase and kill anything small and fluffy"...which we know is far from the truth!
 
Oi 😀I’m vegetarian (for 30 years) & have owned many lurchers over the years. They have an instinct which tbf is not one I find delightful, but I accepted it & controlled it as much as possible.
 
Blazingsaddles said:
Oi 😀I’m vegetarian (for 30 years) & have owned many lurchers over the years. They have an instinct which tbf is not one I find delightful, but I accepted it & controlled it as much as possible.
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You are a perfect example to highlight my point in that case - of someone having a dog which may not be their "ideal" but they work around things and the dog is a much loved member of their family - as a pet
 
I like the idea that dogs have jobs. I think they like them - even if the job is 'play with the kids/warm the sofa'. I however would not countenance using a dog as protection, because I'd sooner have myself hurt than allow my dog to be hurt - not least because I have bodily protection under the law when my dog does not.

Dogs will already die for their pack (even if their pack doesn't warrant such loyalty); and they already know how to use their primary weapon by instinct. That's more than enough for 99.9% of people in this country. As soon as I read the OP I thought 'drug dealer' - they need weapons which the police can't arrest them for, and a dog is an example of this. However, they will not be getting the highly trained dogs referenced higher in the thread - they will be getting as big a bull breed as they can find, something intimidating, and treating it abominably until it's a risk to everyone and everything around it. Tragic.
 
vallin said:
My uncle and his family have a personal protection GSD who is incredibly level headed, walked off lead by all the family in the centre of London (or on lead in areas that it is a legal requirement but the lead is very much for show so to speak) and is a genuinely lovely dog. He regularly goes back to his trainer for further training/refreshers and I trust him more than any other dog I've met. Like others have said, they have him as the children are often home alone, father regularly travels for work, and they all feel safer in his presence.
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How old are these chlldren? Teenagers? I find it bizarre that someone would employ a dog to guard their children at home instead of getting a responsible adult in so they aren't ever 'home alone' on a regular basis.
 
SadKen said:
I like the idea that dogs have jobs. I think they like them - even if the job is 'play with the kids/warm the sofa'. I however would not countenance using a dog as protection, because I'd sooner have myself hurt than allow my dog to be hurt - not least because I have bodily protection under the law when my dog does not.

Dogs will already die for their pack (even if their pack doesn't warrant such loyalty); and they already know how to use their primary weapon by instinct. That's more than enough for 99.9% of people in this country. As soon as I read the OP I thought 'drug dealer' - they need weapons which the police can't arrest them for, and a dog is an example of this. However, they will not be getting the highly trained dogs referenced higher in the thread - they will be getting as big a bull breed as they can find, something intimidating, and treating it abominably until it's a risk to everyone and everything around it. Tragic.
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agree with your post-although I welcome the noise my two make when someone comes up the drive, when we are not in they are kept safely away so if anyone wanted to break in, they'd not have to defend themselves against my dogs and harm them. nothing I have is worth more than they are.

Aprt from drug dealers and organised crime I was thinking maybe high end celebs and business types but I was just taken aback by it tbh. There were only GSDs pictured, no other breeds.
 
I do remember chatting to someone high up in a big supermarket chain a few years back and he was considering getting a PPD as he was away so often and his wife and kids were at home without him and he was worried for their safety (as you can imagine there was a lot of money floating about).
I advised him to tread very carefully for the reasons specified earlier.
Other clients would include footballers, actors etc.
 
I have a family member working in close protection for UHNW clients like that and I get the impression he sees PPDs as something of a novelty. Great to 'play' with, functionally fairly useless, as in 99% of cases for the purpose the client wants they'd be better off employing a suitably qualified human.
 
An increasing amount of dog breeders are getting protection trained dogs now to ensure their pups dont get stolen - I really dont get the whole idea of "must only be drug dealers who have 'these sort of' dogs"

I am most certainly not a drug dealer 😂 but choose to own large, powerful breeds and do partake in protection work with any which are suitable...for the enjoyment of the training aspect over any other reason
 
I don’t know of ANY dog breeder who has a protection dog, and I know far more breeders than the average person.....

Like others have said, people are far better employing better and more effective methods of personal protection - unless as SadKen mentioned, they want a “legal” weapon...
 
kimberleigh said:
An increasing amount of dog breeders are getting protection trained dogs now to ensure their pups dont get stolen - I really dont get the whole idea of "must only be drug dealers who have 'these sort of' dogs"

I am most certainly not a drug dealer 😂 but choose to own large, powerful breeds and do partake in protection work with any which are suitable...for the enjoyment of the training aspect over any other reason
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What happens to the ones that are unsuitable?
 
skinnydipper said:
What happens to the ones that are unsuitable?
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Some of my dogs are unsuitable purely by virtue of the fact that they are spaniels or greyhounds 😂 but if a mastiff type doesnt make the grade its either rehomed (as a pet) or kept (as a pet). Have a young brindle bitch here at the moment who makes a useless guardian, but a very steady companion. Zero dog aggression, zero human aggression, fully stock broken, environmentally sound, low drive all round so happy to mooch out on all day walks or curl up and sleep the day away on the sofa...so here she will stay until a good enough pet home comes along
 
I must admit that in an emergency situation I would rather my dog got hurt than my son or my husband. And I really, really love my dogs. Being labradors that is unlikely but I had a dobermann cross in Oz who twice went out of his way to protect me and I think on the whole that was a positive. The labs are good guard dogs in the amount and depth of woof but I am not sure they would actually rise to a challenge.
 
Clodagh said:
I must admit that in an emergency situation I would rather my dog got hurt than my son or my husband. And I really, really love my dogs. Being labradors that is unlikely but I had a dobermann cross in Oz who twice went out of his way to protect me and I think on the whole that was a positive. The labs are good guard dogs in the amount and depth of woof but I am not sure they would actually rise to a challenge.
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That's why I'm single :p The dogs always came before him, and he knew it :o
 
kimberleigh said:
Some of my dogs are unsuitable purely by virtue of the fact that they are spaniels or greyhounds 😂 but if a mastiff type doesnt make the grade its either rehomed (as a pet) or kept (as a pet). Have a young brindle bitch here at the moment who makes a useless guardian, but a very steady companion. Zero dog aggression, zero human aggression, fully stock broken, environmentally sound, low drive all round so happy to mooch out on all day walks or curl up and sleep the day away on the sofa...so here she will stay until a good enough pet home comes along
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Thank you, Kimberleigh.

" but choose to own large, powerful breeds and do partake in protection work with any which are suitable
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/family-protection-dogs.768696/page-2#OD9I57hWE1eZErCb.99

These were the dogs I was concerned about. The failed protection dogs.
 
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skinnydipper said:
Thank you, Kimberleigh.

" but choose to own large, powerful breeds and do partake in protection work with any which are suitable
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/family-protection-dogs.768696/page-2#OD9I57hWE1eZErCb.99

These were the dogs I was concerned about. The failed protection dogs.
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I suppose it depends on the definition of failed protection dog to be honest.

My young bitch has never done any form of bitework - she has zero interest in chasing a ball or playing a game of tug, let alone anything else 🙈 so I have never progressed further than the socialising and obedience stages with her.

But even for those who have done bitework, it doesnt exclude them from making good pets.

To most, bite work is a pure game - in the same way that a flyball collie will often enjoy a game of tug, being thrown around on the end of a rope toy after their run.

A lot of people make the mistake in thinking that because their dog will bark at someone and bite a sleeve it is a "protection trained dog" but in reality it encompasses far more than bitework.

I had a whippet/greyhound who loved to do long sends and bite a sleeve...was she a trained protection dog? Absolutely not, she just liked to play! Did she see people are targets? Not in a million years. Did people laugh when she wanted to do what the 'big dogs' were doing at training? Yes 😂

My point is that when done sensibly, with dogs who have stable temperaments, and with genuine trainers (of which there are few!) you dont have a dog who is any more dangerous than any other. In fact some of the more serious dogs I've had the pleasure of knowing, I would place far more trust in than a lot of 'regular pet dogs' I've known
 
What worries me about these dogs is the fact that their trainers are not their handlers. IME 90% of dog training involves training the owner rather than the dog - these dogs, who have been trained to attack so potentially very dangerous could be in a household with inexperienced owners - not a safe situation.

I have a very protective dog. Lethally so when I got him, part of it his breed (Rottie/ Mastiff X), part of it is his experience before I got him but I've spent 2 years working with good trainers to ramp down and deflect those behaviours. I don't want him on alert the whole time, he would fly at anything he perceived to be a threat and I'm certain that he would bite if pushed to defend me. He is a huge amount better these days but I still have to be careful how I react as he is so attuned to me - it's a hell of a responsibility as he will never be totally reliable.

OK so he's not the type of temperament that should be trained as a protection dog but it would concern me that the owners of these dogs wouldn't reinforce or keep up the training and the dog would end up ruined and dangerous.
 
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