Farrier issues...

Lauren95

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does the 6 week guarantee only apply to shoes applied with filler /glue?
I never even mention a guarantee in my question, my main concern was the price increase and not being informed. Instead of being sarcy if you have no actual input into the issue anymore then why not just leave it, and grow up? As I've stated to you before the issue is now sorted so no need to carry on is there?
 

milliepops

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If you read all of the site, it clearly explains the principles behind the system, and why it works, so the answer to your question is yes. I do not do anything else, all of the horses have it because the plastic (which isnt glue or filler, so it does not contain any solvent and is very safe) has exactly the same hardness and flexibilty as the horn, and offers the same support so spreads the weightload thus reducing the pressures on any one part.

The plastic used is exactly the same as that which Imprint shoes are made from, it simply comes on granular form and is delivered by a modified gun, especially designed to cope with the hot water that causes the plastic to melt (at 60 degrees C, much cooler than a hot shoe)

thanks for the clarification. I did read a lot of the site but it was difficult to work out what was current and what was older because some talks about gripfil and the guarantee page says clients can't turn horses out overnight etc but elsewhere it says they can.
 

milliepops

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I never even mention a guarantee in my question, my main concern was the price increase and not being informed. Instead of being sarcy if you have no actual input into the issue anymore then why not just leave it, and grow up? As I've stated to you before the issue is now sorted so no need to carry on is there?
I was replying to Graeme, hence why I quoted his post. Nothing "sarcy" about it, it was a direct question relating to the link he had posted.
 

Lauren95

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I was replying to Graeme, hence why I quoted his post. Nothing "sarcy" about it, it was a direct question relating to the link he had posted.
Apologies I did not realise it was a link to another site I am not familiar with using this forum. Sorry for my comment beforehand.
 

Lauren95

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What about when you've been overcharged? Like I had been. Surely customer relationships should matter and not try and fleece people for money by overcharging as was admitted to. This issue is now sorted and I have paid my bill on the day might I add. I just don't appreciate be it farrier or any other form or transaction a price increase going up by £8... Thanks for your input however, it was extremely useful 😂
Apologies for this comment, I did not realise that you had posted a link I am not completely familiar with this link and I thought you were being funny with me. Please accept my apologies.
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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Sorry I can't work out how to get quotes above my answer on the forum.

If I put prices up, I usually give 3 or 4 months warning on the site and verbally. If I have accidentally overcharged, and it happens sometimes, I will usually refund immediately in a way that suits the client.

I did get a panic message from a client one day who had accidentally transferred £3,500 to my account that was intended for someone else :oops: - and transferred it back :D
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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thanks for the clarification. I did read a lot of the site but it was difficult to work out what was current and what was older because some talks about gripfil and the guarantee page says clients can't turn horses out overnight etc but elsewhere it says they can.


Worked it out.

On the site it says that you can turn out immediately after shoeing if you like, that is because the thermoplastic I use only needs to cool which takes a few minutes.
But I do not recommend overnight turnout, for a number of reasons, firstly horses feet generally get saturated with dew all night and subsequently get very warm through the day. This creates perfect conditions, wet and warm, for bacteria to multiply very fast and destroy the cohesion of the horn, although as I have said the plastic is very supportive so it does minimise the resulting collapse.
The other main reason is that in general, night time turnout is more hours than daytime turnout. So for those who are at risk of laminitis that risk is normally increased by night time turnout. Most horses use far less energy to keep themselves warm in the summer, than they do in winter. So most of the energy goes straight to the fat store.
 

conniegirl

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So for those who are at risk of laminitis that risk is normally increased by night time turnout. Most horses use far less energy to keep themselves warm in the summer, than they do in winter. So most of the energy goes straight to the fat store.

Your science is wonky. I'd love to see your evidence for this statement!
Given that most research shows that turning out over night and bringing in during the day reduced laminitis risk due to the lower sugars in the grass and the fact that horses eat less over night.
given that the temperature in summer is lower overnight (often 10 to 15 degrees cooler than during the day) by your own reasoning it would be better to bring in during the day and put out over night.
 

ycbm

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But I do not recommend overnight turnout, for a number of reasons, firstly horses feet generally get saturated with dew all night and subsequently get very warm through the day. This creates perfect conditions, wet and warm, for bacteria to multiply very fast and destroy the cohesion of the horn, although as I have said the plastic is very supportive so it does minimise the resulting collapse.


This study from a while ago now showed no effect of external water, environmental or by use of soaking boots, on the water content of the hoof wall. Only the sole varied much in water content.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22369538/


I've never seen the effect that you mention in a healthy working barefoot horse, only in a shod one, where they can peel from the ground up to the nail holes. That suggests to me that it's more likely to be something in the nailing/shoeing that is creating weak horn than overnight dew.

My own guess has always been fungal or bacterial infection through the nails holes downward, and/or through a weak white line upward.
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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This study from a while ago now showed no effect of external water, environmental or by use of soaking boots, on the water content of the hoof wall. Only the sole varied much in water content.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22369538/


I've never seen the effect that you mention in a healthy working barefoot horse, only in a shod one, where they can peel from the ground up to the nail holes. That suggests to me that it's more likely to be something in the nailing/shoeing that is creating weak horn than overnight dew.

My own guess has always been fungal or bacterial infection through the nails holes downward, and/or through a weak white line upward.

That study is over a short term as far as I can see, the subject target is extremely small just 40 horses in total, the full text is hidden behind a paywall and the study does not look at shod horses. I would be interested to see the point at which the moisture levels were measured and the actual environments that were used. Then there are variations between breeds and individual horses to take into account.
The experience I gathered regarding the effects of hoof wall moisture levels on bacterial and destructive effects I have been working on since 1995, continually and my study is over all the horses on my complete round so maybe you should give credit for that.

If you actually read what I wrote (and the text was written in 2005) I am in agreement that basic unprotected shoeing does increase the bacterial levels and destructive effects caused, by allowing mud into the spaces underneath shoes.
Barefoot allows the feet to airate through the day reducing levels of moisture when the temperatures are high. Shoes do not allow this because the mud trapped in the spaces beneath them cannot airate so it does not dry, and when temperatures are high the undersides of shoes are continually moist allowing the bacteria levels to multiply exponentially, doing much more damage than with barefooters, so you are correct that they do penetrate through the underwall in an upward direction beneath the wall and nails do not help.

However having said that barefooters are not immune to the effects of moisture or bacteria. Its a natural way of reducing excess horn in the wild at times when grazing is plentiful and they do not have to move over wide areas to find high nutrition, so wear levels reduce. Horn is tough to destroy, as it should be, but there are specialist bacteria that can and do get in, especially as the feet get long and stretch or when conditions are particulary favourable to it.

We are reminded that horn is an organic substance and is digestable by many creatures not least of which is our dogs, who mostly will devour it with relish. Other animals who are capable of digesting it are chickens, rats, snakes even, cats, and most of the scavenger animals. They do not discriminate between shod and barefoot, and neither do bacteria. It is only the environment the horses live in, that makes the difference.
 
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Graeme Burt farrier

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Your science is wonky. I'd love to see your evidence for this statement!
Given that most research shows that turning out over night and bringing in during the day reduced laminitis risk due to the lower sugars in the grass and the fact that horses eat less over night.
given that the temperature in summer is lower overnight (often 10 to 15 degrees cooler than during the day) by your own reasoning it would be better to bring in during the day and put out over night.

My science is common sense. Daytime turnout averages, as a general rule, 8am until 6pm = 10 hours. Night time, 6pm until 8am = 14 hours. Almost 1/3 more time grazing.

I was not talking about mean temperatures between day and night, but mean temperatures between summer and winter. Horses use far more energy keeping themselves warm in winter than they do in the summer. Again, common sense. As far as grass sugar levels are concerned, sure the levels are higher in the day when photosynthesis is at its highest. But the grass uses that sugar to grow and it does not shrink at night. It gets eaten.
 
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conniegirl

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My science is common sense. Daytime turnout averages, as a general rule, 8am until 6pm = 10 hours. Night time, 6pm until 8am = 14 hours.
I was not talking about mean temperatures between day and night, but mean temperatures between summer and winter. In winter, horses use far more energy keeping themselves warm than they do in the summer. Again, common sense. As far as grass sugar levels are concerned, sure the levels are higher in the day when photosynthesis is at its highest. But the grass uses that sugar to grow and it does not shrink at night. It gets eaten.

14 hours of time out but less than 10 hours of grazing, studies have shown that horses eat less over night as their gut is biologically designed to be slower at night and they do actually sleep when out at night as well which again decreases the amount of hours spent grazing.
The sugar levels in grass decrease dramatically overnight, it is not the length of the grass that causes laminitis (in fact very long grass has shown to have very low levels of sugar) but the sugar levels, proper scientific research has shown that horses grazing on grass with low sugar levels have a lower incidence of laminitis (Stress also causes higher sugar levels in grass but that is not so easily managed).
 

ycbm

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That study is over a short term as far as I can see, the subject target is extremely small just 40 horses in total, the full text is hidden behind a paywall and the study does not look at shod horses. I would be interested to see the point at which the moisture levels were measured and the actual environments that were used. Then there are variations between breeds and individual horses to take into account.
The experience I gathered regarding the effects of hoof wall moisture levels on bacterial and destructive effects I have been working on since 1995, continually and my study is over all the horses on my complete round so maybe you should give credit for that.

If you actually read what I wrote (and the text was written in 2005) I am in agreement that basic unprotected shoeing does increase the bacterial levels and destructive effects caused, by allowing mud into the spaces underneath shoes.
Barefoot allows the feet to airate through the day reducing levels of moisture when the temperatures are high. Shoes do not allow this because the mud trapped in the spaces beneath them cannot airate so it does not dry, and when temperatures are high the undersides of shoes are continually moist allowing the bacteria levels to multiply exponentially, doing much more damage than with barefooters, so you are correct that they do penetrate through the underwall in an upward direction beneath the wall and nails do not help.

However having said that barefooters are not immune to the effects of moisture or bacteria. Its a natural way of reducing excess horn in the wild at times when grazing is plentiful and they do not have to move over wide areas to find high nutrition, so wear levels reduce. Horn is tough to destroy, as it should be, but there are specialist bacteria that can and do get in, especially as the feet get long and stretch or when conditions are particulary favourable to it.

We are reminded that horn is an organic substance and is digestable by many creatures not least of which is our dogs, who mostly will devour it with relish. Other animals who are capable of digesting it are chickens, rats, snakes even, cats, and most of the scavenger animals. They do not discriminate between shod and barefoot, and neither do bacteria. It is only the environment the horses live in, that makes the difference.



I'm not aware that the mud which I pick out of my own horses feet is any more aerating than that picked out of shod horses.

Until I see properly conducted published peer reviewed research, I think I will remain of the opinion that turning out overnight is not detrimental to horse hoof health.
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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14 hours of time out but less than 10 hours of grazing, studies have shown that horses eat less over night as their gut is biologically designed to be slower at night and they do actually sleep when out at night as well which again decreases the amount of hours spent grazing.
The sugar levels in grass decrease dramatically overnight, it is not the length of the grass that causes laminitis (in fact very long grass has shown to have very low levels of sugar) but the sugar levels, proper scientific research has shown that horses grazing on grass with low sugar levels have a lower incidence of laminitis (Stress also causes higher sugar levels in grass but that is not so easily managed).

Do you actually see horses standing around in fields of grass in the night time ignoring the food around them?

The sugar levels decrease for two reasons. Firstly some of it is transported into the base of the plant so that the roots and crown can grow. That growth is a result of the conversion of the sugars that are manufactured by the leaves in the day to cellulose and other minerals. This happens to the leaves too at night, so they can grow and become bigger, thus the next day they have more surface exposed to the sun, and they can create more suger which can be used to grow, and so on ... but the point is, the energy is still locked up within the plant. It does not go away.

Horses have the ability to digest all of the nutrients within the grass, not just sugar, but like us, and any other carbon based organism they have the abilty to re-convert much of that energy back to sugar, and from there to fats which are stored if they are not used. If there is more nutrition within the plants and more energy, horses will get fat. It is that energy conversion process which causes the disruption to the metabolic system that is at the basic heart of food based laminitis.

Unless you have another theory as to why horses get fat in the spring and get laminitis as a result? I would like to hear it.
 

ycbm

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Do you actually see horses standing around in fields of grass in the night time ignoring the food around them?

No, I see them put themselves into my barn, to which they have free access, and where they choose to go to rest even though they have been locked into it during the day.

Note the date and time. The weather was good. My other two are stood just outside the door, they are usually all inside together.


1646449_2019-06-07 01_46_40.jpg
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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I'm not aware that the mud which I pick out of my own horses feet is any more aerating than that picked out of shod horses.

Until I see properly conducted published peer reviewed research, I think I will remain of the opinion that turning out overnight is not detrimental to horse hoof health.

It is not. But you just said it, you pick the feet out and then they can aerate. Also in the day, if the surrounding area is dry enough it will drop out and then aeration can begin. Its fine if you want to ignore the evidence you see.
The problem is what you do not see. I always maintained, that if people could see bacteria, like for instance they can see maggots, they would be pretty horrified as to what goes on in a horses foot.
 

be positive

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What about horses that are out 24/7 in the summer, mine eat, rest, mooch around they are not constantly eating and it is obvious that they do lie down overnight, looked out earlier 3 were stood resting thinking about having another lie down.
I would rather they went out overnight in summer, if they have to be in at all, so they can be out of the worst of the heat, if we ever get any, the flies and can be ridden without losing grazing time, my farrier has never suggested otherwise but my horses in general have healthy feet, most are now barefoot but I do have shod horses here at livery .
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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No, I see them put themselves into my barn, to which they have free access, and where they choose to go to rest even though they have been locked into it during the day.

Note the date and time. The weather was good. Myvother two are stood just outside the door, hey are dually all inside together.


View attachment 33365

I actually agree with them being able to put themselves within a barn in the night, but the most common reason for this is the incessant attacks of mosquitoes and midges which are very prevalent in the night. My horse does the same for this reason. But another factor is that throughout the winter they do become accustomed to the routine of being in during the night and that cycle is normal.

What I am actually talking about is those that are out in a field without access to any dry hardstanding or covered area. Saturation by dew becomes the norm.
 

ycbm

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It is not. But you just said it, you pick the feet out and then they can aerate. Also in the day, if the surrounding area is dry enough it will drop out and then aeration can begin. Its fine if you want to ignore the evidence you see.
The problem is what you do not see. I always maintained, that if people could see bacteria, like for instance they can see maggots, they would be pretty horrified as to what goes on in a horses foot.

People pick out shod horses feet too.

The trouble is Graeme, that you don't appear to have any scientific evidence, and I don't see what you are seeing with horses with well managed feet turned out at night instead of during the day.

Or for that matter kept out full time in. Typical wet/dry/wet/dry climate we have here.

I think we agree that badly managed feet get bacterial and fungal infections and that they are easier to create in shod feet.

But I think your advice to your clients, and now on here, not to turn out at night is utter bunkum.

I'll take that back when it has been proved scientifically that the many thousands of us turning out at night in summer are doing the wrong thing for hoof health.
 

conniegirl

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Do you actually see horses standing around in fields of grass in the night time ignoring the food around them?
Yes actually I do, on CCTV they regularly sleep at night when kept out, in fact they quite often lie down and sleep for several hours at a time. Just like I see them playing and grooming each other. mine graze for much less than 10 hours at night, probably closer to 8 hours on grass where the sugar is low.
I have always had native ponies who put on weight if you paint the stable green, but I've never had a case of laminitis in any of my ponies despite being out 24/7 in summer, even those who came to me with laminitis or who came and were very prone to it having suffered in the past.

The sugar levels decrease for two reasons. Firstly some of it is transported into the base of the plant so that the roots and crown can grow. That growth is a result of the conversion of the sugars that are manufactured by the leaves in the day to cellulose and other minerals. This happens to the leaves too at night, so they can grow and become bigger, thus the next day they have more surface exposed to the sun, and they can create more suger which can be used to grow, and so on ... but the point is, the energy is still locked up within the plant. It does not go away.

Horses have the ability to digest all of the nutrients within the grass, not just sugar, but like us, and any other carbon based organism they have the abilty to re-convert much of that energy back to sugar, and from there to fats which are stored if they are not used. If there is more nutrition within the plants and more energy, horses will get fat. It is that energy conversion process which causes the disruption to the metabolic system that is at the basic heart of food based laminitis.

Unless you have another theory as to why horses get fat in the spring and get laminitis as a result? I would like to hear it.

Over night the sugar is locked up in the root and base, that part the horse does not eat!
It has been scientifically proven that Horses are not actualy capable of digesting Fructan very well and it is the level of fructan above all others that decreases at night and that causes laminitis. Its like the difference between us eating chocolate (day time turnout) and brown bread (night time turnout) both we can digest, but one is more likely to cause us problems than the other.
 

ycbm

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I actually agree with them being able to put themselves within a barn in the night, but the most common reason for this is the incessant attacks of mosquitoes and midges which are very prevalent in the night. My horse does the same for this reason. But another factor is that throughout the winter they do become accustomed to the routine of being in during the night and that cycle is normal.

What I am actually talking about is those that are out in a field without access to any dry hardstanding or covered area. Saturation by dew becomes the norm.

I don't have any mosquitos here and if it was midges they would protect themselves much more of the time the midges are flying, they have food in the barn.

I have a break period of out full time between in at night and out at night. My in full time period is shorter than half the year, if they were habituated to anything it would be to being out at night. If they were following night routine they would bring themselves in at their expected time and stay in. They don't. They come in to sleep for a couple of hours and go out again, usually twice a night or so. They have hay in there. They don't eat it, they only come in to sleep. if it was habituation they would eat as well.

Graeme you have no evidence at all for your assertion that it is bad for hoof health for horses to be turned out at night.

Personally, I think you are talking nonsense.
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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What about horses that are out 24/7 in the summer, mine eat, rest, mooch around they are not constantly eating and it is obvious that they do lie down overnight, looked out earlier 3 were stood resting thinking about having another lie down.
I would rather they went out overnight in summer, if they have to be in at all, so they can be out of the worst of the heat, if we ever get any, the flies and can be ridden without losing grazing time, my farrier has never suggested otherwise but my horses in general have healthy feet, most are now barefoot but I do have shod horses here at livery .

If they are out 24/7 you will find that there will be an increased frequency of having to trim for barefoot or shoe for those that have them. The feet will accelerate growth due to high nutrition and longer daylight hours stimulating growth, and stretching will be more prevalent because the longer the horn gets, the greater the leverage on it, so it stretches more (turning up, wings, stretched toes, things like that) Damp horn 'bends' more readily than dry horn and is more prone to bacterial penetration so it becomes weaker. The frequency of trimming needs to accelerate or the eventual result is that chunks will begin to break off, as would happen in nature. Some people think that this is natural so it is allowed to happen, I have mixed feelings about that, I think it really depends on the individual horse.
 

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Do you actually see horses standing around in fields of grass in the night time ignoring the food around them?

The sugar levels decrease for two reasons. Firstly some of it is transported into the base of the plant so that the roots and crown can grow. That growth is a result of the conversion of the sugars that are manufactured by the leaves in the day to cellulose and other minerals. This happens to the leaves too at night, so they can grow and become bigger, thus the next day they have more surface exposed to the sun, and they can create more suger which can be used to grow, and so on ... but the point is, the energy is still locked up within the plant. It does not go away.

Horses have the ability to digest all of the nutrients within the grass, not just sugar, but like us, and any other carbon based organism they have the abilty to re-convert much of that energy back to sugar, and from there to fats which are stored if they are not used. If there is more nutrition within the plants and more energy, horses will get fat. It is that energy conversion process which causes the disruption to the metabolic system that is at the basic heart of food based laminitis.

Unless you have another theory as to why horses get fat in the spring and get laminitis as a result? I would like to hear it.

But for laminitics we are talking about triggering the inappropriate insulin response, insoluble carbohydrates like starch and cellulose don't have the same effect on that as soluble carbohydrates such as glucose.

Grass, along with taking sugars into the root, converts glucose to cellulose and starch in the blade at night during the growth phase.
 

be positive

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I have kept horses in at night in summer and usually find during this time they require shoeing more frequently anyway whether they were in or out than in winter and manage that perfectly well by arranging to have the farrier every 4-5 weeks instead of 5-6 weeks, to my mind it has more to do with the grass quality in general than when they are kept in or turned out.
It is individual but common sense needs to prevail and there is no way my horses will have their turnout time restricted to reduce the regularity of trimming, those working barefoot work more in summer so self trim better than in winter, the shod ones just get shod more often and those not in work get trimmed more often, simple if more costly it is balanced by far less work for me and no bedding or hay for 6 months of the year possibly longer in a good year.
 

Graeme Burt farrier

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Yes actually I do, on CCTV they regularly sleep at night when kept out, in fact they quite often lie down and sleep for several hours at a time. Just like I see them playing and grooming each other. mine graze for much less than 10 hours at night, probably closer to 8 hours on grass where the sugar is low.
I have always had native ponies who put on weight if you paint the stable green, but I've never had a case of laminitis in any of my ponies despite being out 24/7 in summer, even those who came to me with laminitis or who came and were very prone to it having suffered in the past.


Over night the sugar is locked up in the root and base, that part the horse does not eat!
It has been scientifically proven that Horses are not actualy capable of digesting Fructan very well and it is the level of fructan above all others that decreases at night and that causes laminitis. Its like the difference between us eating chocolate (day time turnout) and brown bread (night time turnout) both we can digest, but one is more likely to cause us problems than the other.

I have heard this said so many times, 'He never had laminitis before, so he will never get it'. I compare those who say this with those who play Russian Roulette, and say that just because the gun didn't go off last time, it is safe to pull the trigger again. Its your perogative, they are your horses.
All I can say is, if your grazing is matched to the amount of horses then thats usually fine. But over the years I've seen many hundreds of horses die of laminitis and laminitis related conditions and it's not a pretty nor a painless death.

As far as talking nonsense is concerned, thats your perogative too. I will leave you to it.
 

conniegirl

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I have heard this said so many times, 'He never had laminitis before, so he will never get it'. I compare those who say this with those who play Russian Roulette, and say that just because the gun didn't go off last time, it is safe to pull the trigger again. Its your perogative, they are your horses.
All I can say is, if your grazing is matched to the amount of horses then thats usually fine. But over the years I've seen many hundreds of horses die of laminitis and laminitis related conditions and it's not a pretty nor a painless death.

As far as talking nonsense is concerned, thats your perogative too. I will leave you to it.

I'm not the one talking total rubbish and I unlike you have science backing me up.

I don't play Russian roulette with my ponies, I use the latest scientific research to careful control their diet and exercise in order to minimise their risk of laminitis, in conjunction with advice from my vets (major equine hospital) and my farrier (who is a lot more qualified than you and does keep his research up to date)
 

ester

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Ooh bacteria and hooves both my favourites :D

My day and night time turnouts have always been the same length (12 hours) if you were talking length of turnout that really is what you should have said.

Yes I do see my horses standing and ignoring the grass around them quite a lot in the dark, I have an excellent view of the whole field from my bedroom window.

We also need to add a whole heap of plant science to the discussion.
 

meleeka

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I'm not the one talking total rubbish and I unlike you have science backing me up.

I don't play Russian roulette with my ponies, I use the latest scientific research to careful control their diet and exercise in order to minimise their risk of laminitis, in conjunction with advice from my vets (major equine hospital) and my farrier (who is a lot more qualified than you and does keep his research up to date)

I’m actually quite offended to be accused of playing Russian roulette with my horses health. Mine live out 24/7 with access to stables 24/7. Living out is what horses were designed to do and I believe that their hooves are also designed to cope with changes in moisture through the year. Mine are all barefoot and feet picked out daily. I’ve never had a laminitis that wasn’t caused by undiagnosed Cushings and none of mine have ever had any bacterial issues such as thrush. They all have lovely hooves and I’m pretty certain that shutting them in at night isn’t going to improve their health one bit and is more likely to cause harm.
 
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