Feeling guilty for considering shoes

[Hormonal Filly]

I’ve posted before about barefoot vs shod but thought a post here would be easier.

My 4yo has always been barefoot, she has fab feet and we have a great podiatrist. She has had bad liver damage this summer but a massive improvement shown on bloods in the last month and she’s feeling great in herself.

She has Flex Hoof boots but our yard is stoney with muddy steep tracks and it turns them into ice skates ? I think it made her a bit nappy after she had a fall in the boots and a very scary slip another time. I’ve tried Regenede and Cavello, both also slipped and due to her foot shape nothing else fits as well.

First short walk hack today since having from October off. As previously, really hogs the soft ground. If her feet touch any hard ground she will rush sideways to grass. Knocking my leg on the fencing in the process today. We just rode a track, a few small stones but nothing to make her sore.

She doesn’t feel exactly footy, just really favours being on a soft surface (I’m told normal if they’re barefoot?) she will do it in boots to some degree as well. As awful as it sounds, to do a quick 15 minute ride around the farm it’s pretty faffy putting boots on after work and whenever I ride, there is always risk of slip due to the hilliness of where we are (the yard is 750ft above sea level) ?

I feel awful for considering a set of fronts.. because I’ve read and read how much better barefoot is and I’m aware it’s more natural for them.

I don’t want her to have a short career because of problems caused by shoeing, equally don’t want to restrict her movement or way of going from not being happy with her feet.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Did you end up shoeing? I’m aware I’m probably being ridiculous. Probably need a slap ?

 

[ihatework]

Quite frankly, unless the horse is completely confident on their feet, I’d shoe.

 

[ycbm]

, just really favours being on a soft surface (I’m told normal if they’re barefoot?)

I think you are being advised by the wrong people. This has, in my (considerable) experience ALWAYS been a sign that the horse has feet that are not ready to go without some protection.

I think you either need to continue to try to find the rights boots, or shoe. IME boots can be very slippy on some surfaces.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I think you are being advised by the wrong people. This has, in my (considerable) experience ALWAYS been a sign that the horse has feet that are not ready to go without some protection.

I think you either need to continue to try to find the rights boots, or shoe.

The podiatrist is really highly spoke about in my area (and very knowledgeable) she said her feet look close to the perfect bare foot.. never gets any chips, she does have slightly high heels so I’ve been told that could put more pressure on her toe.

The podiatrist doesn’t understand why she’s footy. Diet is ideal. When we spoke, she said barefoot horses can feel their foot better than shod (she isn’t against shoes) and tend to favour soft ground. I have no idea if that’s true! She was clearly happier today when I allowed her to walk down the mud track.

 

[ycbm]

No it's not true. My current 7 year old is barefoot and has never been shod. . I have had more than ten other horses barefoot of all sorts of breeds and I evented barefoot up to BE Novice on 5 different horses and drag hunted for years on three different horses. None of those horses has ever made an effort to walk on softer surfaces unless they had a problem.

Your podiatrist is, I feel, giving you very poor advice and you should think about changing. Good feet are not those that look best, they are those that perform best.

Would you like to post some photos? There are a few of us on here who will tell you what we think might be going on. They need to be taken with the camera down on the floor, apart from the sole shots.

It would also help if you tell us exactly what food and supplements she gets.
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[smolmaus]

All the 50+ horses at the sanctuary I volunteer at are barefoot and the only ones that will move to a softer surface are those with chronic problems, either lami history or the boy with white line separation and frequent bad thrush. My own mare will clop happily over anything barefoot and her feet are far from perfect looking.

I don't think the podiatrist is wrong necessarily that they can of course feel the ground better without a shoe raising the sole off the ground but not wanting to walk on ANY hard ground sets off big alarm bells.

 

[TPO]

See I think it's true to a degree. Since they can feet their feet better and have improved (word I cannot spell) proprioception (?) it's just good judgement to utilise the "kindest" surface.

I'm perfectly sound and can, for example, walk over smooth pebbles at a beach easily but if given the choice I'd prefer to be on soft sand.

Not against shoeing as comfortable movement is the priority but I don't get the "grip" argument. Metal shoes are slidey and slidier(words?) than BF unless studs or road nails are used. They bring their own issues too.

*if* there is a hoof issue shoes will mask it, not fix it. Personally I'd want to get to the bottom of any possible issue before putting a band aid on it but that's just me and I'm a bit driven that way. I always needs answers ??

For example if a horse had a rehab plan that wasn't achievable because they were feeling their feet I'd be all for using shoes to fix one problem at a time. The BF transition could be dealt with once the horse was fully rehabbed. But if the issue is *only* hooves I'd want to sort it.

Maybe there are different grippier boots and I think some of them can have studs? I think it was Michen that posted about boots for riding in the snow and ice of Colorado recently. That thread might be worth looking at?

 

[Boulty]

Tricky one as she's at an age where she's still developing & still learning how to carry a rider in balance so some of this could her being less confident on uneven surfaces in general as they take more co ordination to navigate.

A barefoot horse on the ideal diet for that horse with hooves conditioned for the work they are doing & the surfaces they're crossing & a trim that suits them should ideally not be footsore. I had one with PPID who used to struggle with thin soles & did react negatively to grass. He did struggle with stones at certain times of year but could canter down the road quite happily. (Not saying I encouraged him to but he could when he wanted to) Just tended to avoid surfaces he didn't like or adjust our pace over them. Will admit I'm having a few issues getting Fuzzball comfortable on all surfaces at the moment (there are complicating factors to this that are finally heading in right direction now). He is comfortable in front boots but he does snake about on surfaces he doesn't trust & he's a bit hopeless in mud. Working towards weaning him off the boots but prepared that it may take a while.

Barefoot horses do tend to alter their stride length / stride pattern more on different surfaces as they can feel what they're walking on & adapt but that is not the same as being sore.

I'd say most horses definitely do slip more in boots on grass & mud (may be worth looking into studs but then if you're also doing roadwork that may not work) although I 100% think shod horses slip more on roads (& definitely more in ice & snow).

 

[dominobrown]

Post some pictures of her feet, soles and angles etc.
i would be tempted to x ray the feet too.

 

[SEL]

I agree with the others. My two natives are stomping over all ground but the Appy seems to be having some sort of metabolic mishap and heading for the grass wherever possible. She's never been shod, has great looking feet and the farrier can't find anything with hoof testers. If you're on a lot of really stony tracks and yours is ok on tarmac then it may well just be the stones.

I'm not against shoes - the microcob has pelvic issues so lands laterally on her hinds and needs shoes to prevent damage to her feet (boots didn't stand up to the roads) - but don't assume they always give more grip. My youngster came with fronts on and it was like riding Bambi on ice on wet tarmac!

 

[Gloi]

How much conditioning of the feet are you doing on surfaces like smooth tarmac and non stony tracks before tackling the stones? Is she turned out on a surface similar to what you are riding her on for a good amount of time?
Like others I find shoes are slippier on roads and boots on mud.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

How much conditioning of the feet are you doing on surfaces like smooth tarmac and non stony tracks before tackling the stones? Is she turned out on a surface similar to what you are riding her on for a good amount of time?
Like others I find shoes are slippier on roads and boots on mud.

Never thought of how much conditioning she gets. Turnout is in a decent size field. Our yard has some private hacking which is all woodland, fields or a small bit of tarmac so not much on site. Before she was backed I led her out a lot by hand on different surfaces across the road, then once broken I was riding off the private land - it means crossing a road, going down a very steep, very stony track which is very long and uneven, some gritty areas then tarmac road. We were doing it often and she showed no problem. She actually over took the shod horses! It’s not a nice track to ride down. ?

She always marched on down (barefoot) then she got slightly footy and napped quite badly once, which was so unlike her.. farrier said she had worn her toes a bit and probably the cause. I stopped crossing the road and found the podiatrist. Bought some boots. Feet have changed shape and massively improved.. always booted to cross the road after that, but it feels like she worries she’s going to slip. I guess all the hard ground on the private land is ‘stoney’ in some way and hilly, she seems much better on flat hard ground.

She will avoid walking on the hard surfaces (grass tracks up the side of all hard surfaces) and I guess because I no longer lead her out in hand, her feet pretty much aren’t getting any conditioning.

Happy to take some pictures and post, no thrush. No other signs of laminitis. Yet she cantered across the rock hard frozen ground this morning!

It would also help if you tell us exactly what food and supplements she gets.

She’s always been on healthy herbal chaff and progressive earths pro plus balancer, I did add some oats a few months ago but she hasn’t had them for a while. She was on Suregrow but I’ve stopped that a few months ago now.

 

[Caol Ila]

How good is your trimmer? Barefoot trimming is like the Wild West. Both mine got quite footy after trims (with the same person). I let the Highland grow his feet out for about 12 weeks and then the yard’s normal farrier trimmed him. His feet are so much better!


I asked farrier why the horse might have been sore, and he said that he was trimmed in a way that had him walking on his soles. He’s flat footed but his feet grow in a way that works. When farriers/trimmers recognise that and trim appropriately, he has no issues.

My mare is definitely improving over rocks since getting out more. She’s self trimming well enough but now that they are in the same place, the same chap who now does my gelding will sort her out.

 

[cauda equina]

Before shoeing it's worth trying Keratex or maybe Hoof Armor, which I've never used but read good things about

 

[SEL]

Was she better when the farrier was doing the hooves? Might have misread what you said in post #12 but as @Caol Ila said not all trimmers are created equal!

 

[ycbm]

She always marched on down (barefoot) then she got slightly footy and napped quite badly once, which was so unlike her.. farrier said she had worn her toes a bit and probably the cause. I stopped crossing the road and found the podiatrist. Bought some boots. Feet have changed shape and massively improved..

I'm very suspicious about this. You had a horse who was rock stomping, then changed foot care professional and the feet now look much better ... but perform worse.

I am afraid to say this is not untypical of my experience of EP training which is, or used to be, all about trimming to a fixed formula of "correct" angles and shapes. The trouble is that not all horses agree that these are correct for them personally. Most of those trimmers call themselves podiatrists, not trimmers, and I'm wondering if yours is one of those, and whether the trimming actually suits your horse.
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[Hormonal Filly]

I'm very suspicious about this. You had a horse who was rock stomping, then changed foot care professional and the feet now look much better ... but perform worse.

I am afraid to say this is not untypical of my experience of EP training which is, or used to be, all about trimming to a fixed formula of "correct" angles and shapes. The trouble is that not all horses agree that these are correct for them personally. Most of those trimmers call themselves podiatrists, not trimmers, and I'm wondering if yours is one of those, and whether the trimming actually suits your horse.
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Interesting YCBM. Never thought of the trimmer. Prior to changing, 2 well known boot brands said she wasn’t being trimmed well after sending pictures (they’d recommend finding a podiatrist) and a lot of boots therefore wouldn’t be suited. Hoof Boutique also commented her heels looked under fun. She was high on her heels before changing, the podiatrist has gradually reduced that.

I struggled to get this trimmer out.. after ringing a LOT of them. I’m pretty sure my farrier hates me for changing, which is such a shame as he was so reliable and helpful - so doubt he would want to come back.

I’ll take some pictures today (if anyone is willing to look) - thank you!

 

[Abacus]

I agree that barefoot horses will choose where they walk and it doesn’t necessarily mean pain (my old boy, unshod behind*, does this) - but not to the extent that they rush and nap to get to softer ground. To me this probably indicates pain.

I’m afraid my opinion here is that you are making a young horse do something painful which is already altering her behaviour. This isn’t really fair. I would put shoes on for her comfort and to stop her associating being ridden, or hacking, with pain.

The barefoot people often seem to be evangelists of some sort of natural way of existing, as though this can really exist in the way we use our horses.

* because of hock arthritis and he was unwilling to pick up feet for the farrier. We don’t have a choice over this. He doesn’t like very stony places, which we avoid, but is otherwise ok.

 

[ycbm]

I agree that barefoot horses will choose where they walk and it doesn’t necessarily mean pain (my old boy, unshod behind*, does this) - but not to the extent that they rush and nap to get to softer ground. To me this probably indicates pain.

I do agree with this to some extent, but certainly not in the "desperate" sense that the OP describes.

I also don't agree to a very great extent. My barn used to have a path which I made of aggregate about half a metre wide down the middle of a track about 2 metres wide. I knew which horses were having issues by who stomped straight down the hard-core and who tippytoed off to the sides.
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[ycbm]

I’m afraid my opinion here is that you are making a young horse do something painful which is already altering her behaviour. This isn’t really fair. I would put shoes on for her comfort and to stop her associating being ridden, or hacking, with pain.

There is a third option, which is to find out why she was happy before and is not happy now. The OP has one, which is that the feet are getting less conditioning. Photos might help us identify others.
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[Equi]

My big lad is barefoot. He will walk over pebbles, rocks, gravel etc all without seemingly noticing. Hence he has stayed barefoot. If he was constantly seeking to avoid those areas he would be getting shoes on. The worst thing you can do for a youngster is give them a reason not to want to work and in this case that reason is going to be discomfort, which can lead to issue down the line. You can always take them off again to reassess in the future.

 

[HashRouge]

She definitely doesn't have the "perfect bare foot" if she is footsore, and I am inclined to agree with ycbm and wonder if it might be linked to the trim/ trimmer. I had a huge issue with a barefoot trimmer (again, very highly recommended!) who took far too much off my mare's hooves. They looked very "pretty", but she was extremely footsore after her trim and it took several weeks before she was back to normal (I never used the trimmer again!). I currently just use a local farrier and he does a good job - certainly no-one is ever any less comfortable after he has been!

Certainly, something isn't working for your horse. I would not be against trying front shoes, but I think in your position I'd want to have a go at working out exactly what is going on first. Is it your trim/ trimmer, a dietary issue, or a metabolic issue? It could also be environmental (i.e. your set up doesn't really lend itself to keeping an unshod horse) and that is where I would be more inclined to shoe. But I'd have a go at working out what is going on first.

I shared a lovely Arab gelding for a few years and he was unshod as his owner couldn't really afford to shoe all her horses. However, he generally had excellent feet and would march out over any surface with complete confidence (the local bridleways were very stony). However, he would occasionally become slightly footsore and I was usually able to isolate it to one of two things. Either, his farrier had been recently, or he had thrush. The farrier issue was tricky as he wasn't my horse and it was all arranged by his owner, who thought her farrier was the best thing since sliced bread. However, he had one day where I think the farrier had been quite brutal with how much he took off and he really was very sore, which made it easy for me to explain what was going on to his owner (she didn't ride him herself). And credit to her, she did speak to the farrier and things improved a lot after that. The thrush again was tricky, as I wasn't able to manage him how I liked. It usually came up in winter, as he was out 24/7 and her grazing got quite muddy. I did get some blue spray from the vet though and gave it to his owner, and again, that helped quite a bit. What I'm trying to show, though, is that when a previously rock crunching horse becomes sore and sensitive, there is always something causing it.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

How good is your trimmer? Barefoot trimming is like the Wild West. Both mine got quite footy after trims (with the same person). I let the Highland grow his feet out for about 12 weeks and then the yard’s normal farrier trimmed him. His feet are so much better!


I asked farrier why the horse might have been sore, and he said that he was trimmed in a way that had him walking on his soles. He’s flat footed but his feet grow in a way that works. When farriers/trimmers recognise that and trim appropriately, he has no issues

That’s really interesting. I have some original photos from back in April time, when the farrier was trimming. Flex Hoof boots drew on what needed to be changed in their opinion.

If I’m honest she was footy for the farrier, but he said she had worn her toes which was the cause (which I could see) so maybe that was the reason. I then changed to a podiatrist based on advice on barefoot groups and because my farrier said he couldn’t make any changes and trimmed her to what suited her (maybe that was alarm bells) ?

She hasn’t been trimmed by the podiatrist now for 7 weeks (we usually book in for 6 weeks)

I’ll take some photos this morning of her feet now.

Photos from April 2022
Front left (drawings Flex Hoof Boots put on)



Other photos

 

[Equi]

Will be interesting to see the current photos.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Front right (April 2022)

 

[TPO]

I don't think it's evangelical to want to fix a problem rather than mask it.

A sound horse with healthy hooves is sound in and out of shoes. Shoes reduce blood flow to the hooves and sensation in them. I'd rather a horse that can feel* their feet and make appropriate choices than blindly march over a surface that could be causing damage.

I can't fathom how a 1/4" ring of steel covering 3/4 of the hooves is believed to offer protection. Nailed o through the tiny water ring, given that no person is 100% accurate, that means some nails end up outside of thst small space.

*feel doesn't mean sore or hurting. Those are different things.

Good farriery texts all say that shoes damages hooves and horses should have 12wks out of them annually to recover.

If a horse displays discomfort or soreness on any other part of its body it isn't work as normal and cover it up. Yet sore or uncomfortable hooves and it's mask it with shoes and carry on. It's It's real case of cognitive disassociation.

An advantage of barefoot is that horses can alert you to issues sooner because they can feel their feet e.g. LGL.

Of course shoes have their place and use but I don't think sticking a metal plaster over is the solution. In some cases it enables issues to worsen "unseen" because of the metal mask.

Its so engrained that we (generic) just shoe not a lot of thought is given to the how or why. Non horse people seem to get it a lot easier than horse people how non sensical metal rims actually are.

OP is trimming yourself an option? I'm a fan of the "Hoof Guided Method". There's a book by Maureen Tierney iirc that's around £15 on amazon. That way is little and often and not invasive.

 

[GinaGeo]

I’m not anti shoe, just make sure you give regular breaks from shoes if you do go that way.

Horses without shoes are more aware of the surface they are on, and young horses often haven’t got the strength to navigate uneven slippy sections with a rider on board. Understandably horses don’t like falling over, as a prey animal it makes them vulnerable so it does make sense that she’s worried to go that way if she’s worried about slipping.

I also wouldn’t expect shoes to help with the slipping. In my experience they slip a lot more in shoes.

I would seriously think about doing some conditioning work with your mare to strengthen her feet up.
It sounds like she lives on the soft and works predominantly on the soft and so that is what her feet are adapted to. And I’d probably start this conditioning off from the ground.

And maybe have a chat with your EP and ask if she can leave a little extra height in the wall. It can help with comfort as well as give them a bit more grip. You might also need to do some tidying inbetween trims in this case.

 

[ycbm]

Am I reading that right? A boot seller told you that your horse had too great a thickness of hoof wall?

If so, that's an astonishing thing to suggest.
.

 

[Winters100]

Personally I would just shoe the horse and see how she does.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Feeling your pain OP as I'm a barefooter too and can understand your reluctance to put shoes on.

Just a suggestion but I've found the FB group "Barefoot Horse Owners UK" a very useful place for information and support and if you're not on it already you may find you get some helpful answers on that group?